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lets start with a very basic statement.
there are RELOADERS
and then there are AMMO CRAFTERS.
I have seen people here and else where crying that all the small steps some of us take
are just wasted, of no real benefit.
today while testing some ammo for a rifle, a bunch of those little steps paid off.
shooting three shot groups at 200 yards the chronograph read:
shot 1 2631
shot 2 2631
shot 3 2631
ave 2631
es zero
sd zero
i'd like to say there was only one hole but that would not be true.
It's almost like ES and SD are worthless at short range.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinco
I would like to have a sample of 5.:cool:
If you loaded up more how did they fair?
and I agree, how could precision loading be a negative or " waste"
I have been tring to go that way with my limited set of tools and was all smiles when I had a SD of 7.
Good reloading.
That's is quite an accomplishment!
I'm not sure you'll see that often given the possible variables due to powder burn, primers, etc. but it is certainly a rarity.
It's nice to know it is possible. I've never had it happen.
IT IS the first zero ES/SD i have ever shot.
i have actually shot 1's before.
and in the math world, essentially all shooting samples are too small for "statistical" es/sd.
the math is based on LARGE sample sets..like a 1000 or more.
but we still use the output tho it is barely "DATA' with our small sample sizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CFJunkie
i shoot a ladder , 10 or so 1/100 of case vol steps , singles in steps. as in a ladder
pick several data points and shoot 3 shot groups .
from the 3 shot group data i shoot one or 2 five shot groups,
and then pick the best and play with seating depth.
range is aprox 100 miles one way took three rifles
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDug
I am impressed you drive 200mi just to shoot.
Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk
I tune my loads to my gun. And I load on a RCBS Rockchucker and a 505 Scale and I load one at a time.
I shoot 5 shot groups and I single load.
2 or 3 shot groups don't prove anything except that you're getting close.
A "5 shot group" that can be covered with a dime (:cool:) is what I strive for.
ES?
SD?
My Chronograph hasn't been out of it's box in over 10 + years.
Never was concerned about FPS. Never seen anything out run one of my bullets.
If I can't hit what I'am aiming at, I've got problems and need to start over.
My targets don't know how fast the bullet is going when it gets hit.
As long as all my shots are going in the same hole, I'am happy.
Good thing we all don't think the same. Sure would be a boring world. ;):cheerful:
and i still tend to ignore your posts. reloader vs ammocrafter.
how are your 2000 yard groups ?
1000 yard groups ?
600 yard national titles ??
you are entitled to do as you please,
it does not work for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor Cal Mikie
charlie,
i live in the phoenix area. in the summer it is always over 90..more like over 100.
where i compete it is typically 75-90, so i need to test in the temp band.
if i drive 100 miles northeast i am in the low mountains and seldom see 90,, typically 70-85.
$50 to join the club, 7/24 access. limited to 300 yards, but the elevation and temp both work for me.
i go out early, set up, shoot, pack up and home by 1030/1100.
i drive well over 1000 for the matches..one way.
QUOTE=charlie b;458856]I am impressed you drive 200mi just to shoot.
Sent from my SM-P580 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
And that right there is why half the people on this site don't like you. You're rather full of yourself and have this attitude that anybody who doesn't do it "your way" is somehow inferior. Lot's of ways to skin a cat, and comments like that just show everyone how much of an ass you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinco
Although I've never experienced the statistical zero SD/ES, I have got it down into the one's on occasion. As some will remind though, a perfect SD/ES rarely shoots a perfect group, and that is why I let the target do the talking as much as possible.
I have however, found a repeatable way to shoot 5 shot, one hole groups, every time. SD/ES can be all over the place but it never fails me. 5 shots, one hole. Ok, sometimes it's a bit ragged one hole. The trick is to (using wind flags) be as precise as possible in shooting that first shot, then crank the elevation turret up until it hits the stop and fire 4 more. One hole group, every time.
the good news is i really do not care.
i shoot PRECISION rifle at several distances.
i KNOW what precision is and what "reloading" is.
i guess i need to go do an intro that explains what i do and how i do it.
everyone has their own idea of "accuracy", most times it is not close to how i compete.
100 yard benchrest, 600/1000/2000 yard benchrest .
i build my own rifles, i load my own ammo.
i am new to savage rifles, i am not new to serious precision rifle shooting.
i have no idea why norcalmike decided to post. hear himself ?? we have crossed paths on several forums
and have seldom agreed. its not new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Baker
I can’t count the number of times I’ve shot groups with and Es of 3-5 fps and was rewarded with a mediocre group. My go to load when shooting local 100 yard BR had an ES of 35 fps but shot in the high .1s for 5 shot groups.
The only time I bother with the chronograph any more is when I’m working with a new wildcat or getting velocities before lobbing shots at the other side of a valley.
"we have crossed paths on several forums"??? News to me.
I just mentioned what and how I do things and you end up making a pissing contest out of it?
I think we've got your number. I guess it's hard to be humble when you're so good?
Like I said, sure glad we all don't think the same.
I tend to let people have their victory even if I don't really think it's worth celebrating. Shooting small (very small) groups is rewarding (I assume) and shooting a zero FPS ES/SD string is also rewarding (again I assume). Why one Kung fu has to better than another is just a bit confusing to me. I guess I just don't understand.
I couldn't find the emoji I wanted, (shaking head).
What kind of shooter you are or how good of a shooter you may be or what disciplines of competition you shoot has absolutely nothing to do with how you interact with and treat others. The whole "I don't care" comment just reinforces my statement about your having an attitude problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinco
"The whole "I don't care" comment just reinforces my statement about your having an attitude problem".
The first thing I would do if I was him? Be real careful not to trip on my Ego. From how high he's put himself, it's a looong fall.
Sure looks like if you don't agree with him, YOU'RE the bad guy, no matter who you are.
Don't know him or where he came from BUT, I'am impressed that little old me, without even trying, could wind his clock.:p
Didn't know I had it in me, and without even trying.:cool:
Bet he's fun to live with.:eek:
Validation, Most need it to one degree or another.
MikeinAZ
My question is: if you come to a forum and post your successes and continuously beat others down for not being as good as you are. What is the purpose? It is definitely not to help others. I don't think it is comradery. All it can be is validation.
You offer no help or appreciation for others. Just insults. You are either a curmudgeon or a fibber. You could just open up MS word and write about how awesome you are(where no one would ever see it), but you don't. You come to a forum hoping others will read about your alleged accomplishments and elevate you to the status you feel you deserve. That's a need for validation.
There are many guys out there that are much more accomplished than you and they treat people with respect. You insulted bigedp51 the other day. He helps people everytime he post. He takes time to share the collected gifs and pictures with hand written text explaining what he feels is the best advice. bigedp51 lives to help others even if misconstrued by some. All of your knowledge is worthless if not shared.....It is OK to be about you, just be about others too.
Robilhood:
You WERE speaking about mikeinco NOT mikeinAZ? :thumb:
( You insulted bigedp51 the other day)??
I wasn't aware of that. Looks like mikeinco hates ANYBODY that doesn't think the same way he does?
(and I was thinking it was just me??)
Appears he has a LOTS of smarts but is so intent on running other folk down that don't agree with him, in the end he can't accomplish anything. Just a legend in his own mind. What a shame. The man needs to be prayed for, REAL HARD!!
lol! ya thinkQuote:
The man needs to be prayed for, REAL HARD!!
I'm not implying this about anyone, just offering some perspective about what it's like to be raised by a narcissist.
It's been my experience that when you're raised by a Narcissist that everything you do is diminished so that the narcissist can always feel that they're the best. Your belief in yourself MUST be strong just to survive that environment while growing up because what you'll always hear after relating how you accomplished something is " I did it THIS way it was better". So anytime the narcissist survivor hears how someone else did it differently, they'll go back to their survivor behavior and it frequently comes out sounding angry, when in fact it's really them feeling diminished, and for no good reason.
The narcissist survivor may or may not themselves become a narcissist, but they will always have the fleas of the narcissist. As the saying goes, if you lay down with a dog, you'll wake up with fleas, and so it is with a narcissistic parent.
It is also what drives the narcissist survivor to excel in everything they do, and they frequently do quite well in competition because LIFE ITSELF BECOMES A CONSTANT COMPETITION, courtesy of the narcissist and they're quite accustomed to the pressure.
That's all I have to add to this conversation. It's my opinion that the thread itself has no value except as a means to crucify others, it seems.
Wow.
Ok, so first, I appreciate the accomplishment and as an engineer I'd like to know how it was done. What kinds of details were attended to and what kind of equipment was used to minimize those details. Sometimes I learn something that helps me with my "cheap" equipment (I reload mostly for the fun of it).
Second, I grew up in Glendale, AZ. Neighbors were shooters at the Thunderbird range (now in the middle of huge residential areas) and we used to drive out to the desert in that area to shoot jackrabbits. Went to Black Canyon a couple of times but not on a regular basis. I am surprised it still exists being in the middle of all that build up. Now in southern NM so the heat is an issue I am familiar with when shooting, and something I try to account for when loading and making up dope tables, since I also shoot during the winter here. Mike, did you go to school in the Phx area? My mother and father (and grandfather) were high school teachers at several different schools in the 50's to 80's (Glendale, Central, Phoenix Union, Alhambra, Maryvale).
Last, I do not compete. I never found it interesting or satisfying. I do like improving my own work. As far as labels go, anyone who reloads is a reloader. Some have different goals or reasons for doing so. Some like to make precision ammo. Others reload just to save money. Others because they like to. Same with rifles. Some like to build their own out of "cast offs", others only use the most precise components and some just buy a rifle off the rack to shoot. None of these people are "better" than anyone else. Someone who shoots once a year to get an elk in the freezer is just as "good' as a national/olympic champion shooter.
DD,
when i narrow down the load ii will shoot 5's.
there is a reason to not shoot fives early in load development.
if your goal is 1/2 moa, and you loaded up
5 loads in your choice of increments and you shoot
three shots of load one and the group is clearly an inch or more,
let me ask you a question:
how much SMALLER will the group get with shots 4 and 5 ?
ANSWER it cannot get smaller.
if 1/2" is your goal and you are at 1" with 3 shots, shooting the last 2 is:
a waste of time
a waste of components
a waste of money.
in the early steps of load development there is a clear reason to
shoot 3's and not 5's.
all loads i shot that day were single didget es's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDug
I can see your logic.
i moved here not quite 2 years ago, when i retired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie b
Well thanks for your honesty Yorkey. At the distances you like to shoot, (lobbing) shots would be the proper term.Quote:
Originally Posted by yorketransport
Results will be what the conditions permit. About 2 weeks ago the 2019 world open shoot was held at Williamsport.
The results are posted on the website. It’s interesting comparing the results with prior years results. It’s also interesting to look at the equipment used and compare with prior years. Note that there are almost no factory actions being used today. The vast majority are also using custom made bullets. All in all there are no doubt more shooters shooting better than years back. That no doubt due to better equipment being used by more people. But are the better shooters from years back shooting better today? As for consistency probably yes, but as for their best group size? About 30 years ago Frank Weber set a new 10 shot record of 3 something inches using a 308 Baer on a L61 Sako action. At 83 he did well again this year. He never owned a chronograph and I doubt very much he has one now.
All those dashers built by Mark King pretty much all use the same load, and I’d say much of the ammo originates in his shop.
for the record yobuck and yorketrans were the two that said
i cannot compete at 2000 yard group and score win a 300 win mag.
i won the 2000 yard group/score nationals this year a 300 win mag.
they are not exactly experts at the long range game
Does this post by mikeinco remind anyone of flaming bovine scat?
I did a search at accurateshooter.com for the mikeinco screen name and all I found was someone asking another braggart if he was related to mikeinco. :rolleyes:
https://i.imgur.com/eHM6WZi.jpg
[QUOTE=mikeinco;458995]for the record yobuck and yorketrans were the two that said
i cannot compete at 2000 yard group and score win a 300 win mag.
i won the 2000 yard group/score nationals this year a 300 win mag.
they are not exactly experts at the long range game[/QUOTE
Thats wonderfull, congratulations for that. It could even be more wonderfull if the all the information and results were posted.
I never knowingly claimed being an expert at anything, especially shooting at long range.
But i have been around that activity for about 50 years and have had considerable experience with the guns and glasses needed for seeing hits on those types of shots.
Shoot with whatever and however it floats your boat Bub. But coming on sites like this and trying to shove BS down peoples throats wont win you much. And yes again, I’m calling your Win Mag claims to be what they are, B S.
How can you and Jeff Brozinski ever be at the same place at the same time?
bigedp51:
As expected, mikeinco just can't say anything nice about anybody. Appears NOT to be in his DNA.
Like you, I happened to check the members list @ accurate shooters also and it appears mikeinco's reputation precedes him. Can't find him on the members list.:confused: So, we're seeing his rep here also. Not very well liked over there.:sour: Wonder if his sharp tongue got him run off? Seen it happen a few times.:p
Seems to be a pretty smart man, just doesn't know how to play nice/well with others. If he keeps up that M O, he won't have any place to go and run folks down. A real shame. Might have been able to learn something from the man??
Really, Was Tom Mousel there with his 338?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinco
A fella named Mike Nagengast came from Sun City, AZ with his 300 WinMag hunting gun.
6 Shooters total in 3 classes. The only other shooter was Alex Wheeler with a 6 Creedmoore.
Well most times i think smart is as smart do.
This guy was trolling and got a lot of bites!!!
yes we had a weather (rain) scare and most shooters from across the usa bailed at the last min.
in the end we had good weather on friday for practice, and sat for the match
we shoot 5 shot strings at 2000 at a 1000 mil target on a 8x8 backer.
yep i shot not as bad as the other guy...good for the win.
last year i dq'd alex with off shots on his target. this year i paid his entry as a payback.
last year my scope base came loose and caused havoc. good elevation, no windage control.
i'll see most of them at the northwest 1000 yard championship in aug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
so we have some bullies here. some all hat and no cattle. some with no character, that like to pile on when others attack.
the difference, is i actually do what i say, in spite of comments by children on the forum.
I'm beginning to think mikeinco is F.Guffey's son and able to leap tall reloading presses in a single bound.
https://i.imgflip.com/41huk.jpg
and while you all seem to praise him, you know why the child is on my ignore list.
such a child he will not go away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
Enough of the B.S. and piling on guys. I addressed the behavior issue so move on. Next person that stirs the pot or takes a jab gets a 7-day vacation.
Let's get back to talking guns and shooting rather than being pricks to one another. You're all better than that - or at least should be.
You sir are truly a legend in your own mind.:bored:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinco
actually i have wins to backup my "legend"
national trophies.
its just beyond your mind is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaCop
This is a great example of this exception. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaDWio6Y3XsQuote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
Yes i am aware of this, it goes without saying it is quite an accomplishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
If i were there i of coarse would have shook his hand and offered my congratulations.
But savor that moment Randy, because doing that involved much more than being a good shooter with a good rifle, and he knows it.
Anyone not knowing it has done little to no extreme distance shooting.
But then Randy did have some additional help in that he is a lefty. Lol
And he did it on a Duplin Bipod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Well there you go, that no doubt was what made the difference.
Do they make that model with optional wind flags? Lol