Model 12 LRP 6.5CM wont shoot well

Hi all,

Experienced shooter and handloader here, but new to the forum. This past May my wife bought me the model 12 LRP in 6.5cm that I've been asking for for several years now. I topped it with a vortex hs-t 6-24 ×50. Initially I shot factory ammo through it, and they shot well for factory loads (1/2 to 3/4 inch average). However, I got this rifle with the intentions of handloading with the understanding that sub .5 moa groups would be very attainable.

Long story short, that has not been the case. Without getting into the specifics of the countless combinations of powder, brass, primer, seating depth etc. that I have tried, let's just say I fired shots #201-210 tonight of "operation load development" and I have accomplished absolutely nothing. I've gone through a pound of h4350 a half pound of rl16 and a half lb of rl17. After all this, I haven't been able to find a load that consistently matches what I can accomplish with factory ammo.

I know that it's impossible to tell someone what load might work in their gun because everyone is different, so I guess what I'm looking for here is to see if perhaps my expectations for this rifle are unrealistic? Is this gun only a .75" gun?

I appreciate any input from you guys! Thanks!

Ben

Yeah, sometimes they just only do so well. I’m not sure what Savage’s accuracy expectations are on the LRP? I think it’s a tad above for what should be a tack driver, but probably within specifications. Possibly something else is your issue. Have you tried torque tuning the action screws?

You could try torquing the action screws. Different primers. Projectiles. You have shot over 300 reloads through the rifle. Maybe anneal the brass. As far as suggestions there is a lot of info missing. Then again you may have a .75 rifle.

I called savage and they told me if average group size is an inch or better with factory ammo, theres nothing they can do. However, I notice some strange markings inside the muzzle. It's almost as if theres bluing that goes inside the muzzle. I see clean shiny barrel and the in a jagged border the last 1/8 inch of the muzzle is black. I've also noticed that the copper tends to build up in these odd markings. I was told by the savage rep that there are tooling marks that are present in all factory barrels... I dont know?

As far as tuning the action screws... I have not. I was trying to find a load that was kind of close and then play with the action screws. Perhaps that's not the correct way to go about it? What's the protocol on this?

Thanks!

Have you shot factory loads at 1/2-3/4 recently. As in alongside your reloads? Your barrel may be fouled out, not fouled enough, or your scope may be crapped out. My vortex HS made it less than 50 rounds before it failed.

I didnt include all the different things I have tried because it would take me all night to type it up. You'll just have to take my word for it that as far as load development goes I kinda know what I'm doing. I have successfully developed loads for a half dozen other rifles. I've never had as hard a time as I have with this rifle. I have a friend who has this exact rifle and he went on a forum, found a load he liked, loaded it up and it's a sub half moa gun all day. I cant get a hand load that's even close.

Anyways... the reason for my post was to see if .75" was acceptable for this rifle, or is there something wrong with the gun... which it seems like you've answered. So thanks for your input!

I'll try tinkering with torque tuning the action screws.

Also in reference to your above post, I had a Precision Carbine that looked like a drain pipe when you looked down it. Chatter marks that almost made it look like they threaded the inside of the barrel. Still held 1/2-3/4 moa with several reloads the first session out

The last group I shot today was with factory loads and it was .642". I periodically shoot a group with factory ammo to make sure my gun isnt broke. I clean to bare steel after every 20 rounds or so. I've tried not cleaning and I've tried cleaning to bare steel after every group. Didnt notice any difference so I just stick with cleaning to bare steel every 20 shots or so...

Hmmmm that’s weird that it would shoot with factory that well but not reloads. How close are you running bullets the the lands in relation to your factory ammo?

I thought so too. When I shot that well with factory ammo, I was chomping at the bit to dial it in with hand loads. I've tried anything from just touching the lands to all the way back as short as the factory ammo. Groups seemed to open up as I got further off the lands.

Having been working up loads for 3 new Savage barrels in the past year the biggest thing I found was throughout load developement process was copper. Two of the three barrels coppered up bad for the first 50-100 rounds. Load tests were often scewed by the coppered up barrels.
Every time I "scrubbed" them out accuracy improved almost right away. A good copper solvent and 40 or more strokes with a stiff nylon brush (sometimes twice).
One barrel a 26 inch 10fcp-sr with 5r rifling was pretty decent did not copper up much after break-in.
The 24 inch 10fp-sr is terrible and after 300 rounds still coppers up after 50 rounds or so.
The third barrel is a 22" off an axis and accuracy drops off pretty fast after 40 or so rounds (only has 200 rnds so far).
All three have shot many groups under .5".
But they are hunting rifles and .6 to .75 average is all I expect, even with hand loads.
Mine shoot ok until they copper up. Seems like they are getting better.
Hope you can figure yours out.
Randy

Did you try the same bullet that your factory ammo is? I run Sierra, Hornady and Berger. Never had an issue with those shooting in any barrel. I have had issues with nosler. (They we’re just a bit picky with seating depth compared to the others)

i have had hornady batches of bullets that were .017” differnce in ogive measurements in a box of 100. They did not shoot well unless I hand sorted the bullets before loading

I run a 260. Have loaded for 3 of them so far.
Lapua Brass
CCI 200 or BR2
sierra 142 smk, 140 Smk or 143 Eldx
H4350 anywhere from 42.5-43.5 grains for any of the above bullets.

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Originally Posted by Delhiguy91

As far as tuning the action screws... I have not. I was trying to find a load that was kind of close and then play with the action screws. Perhaps that's not the correct way to go about it? What's the protocol on this?

Thanks!

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http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/


This might give you an idea to try.

I have duplicated the factory ammo in every way except powder. I called hornady and asked what powder they use and they wouldn't tell me. It looks almost identical to rl16, but I duplicated it exactly with rl16 and got horrible results. I have tried most of my handload with eld-x because #1 I really like this bullet for hunting and #2 that's what my gun shoots well with factory loads. I have also tried a-max and match kings with poor results.

Seems simple enough! Thanks!

For what it’s worth I use H4350 in mine. Works well

If factory ammo shoots that well, I would keep trying.

Try a magnum primer. My model 12 26” 6.5 barrel would shoot .75-1 moa with cci200 primers then I switched to cci250 primers with the same load and it dropped to .3-.4 moa.


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Hate to say this, but maybe your expectations are a little too high for a mass production factory rifle? The gun shots 1/2-3/4" groups with factory ammo, and that's about the best you can expect from a factory Savage barrel (or most any mass produced rifle for that matter). Sure there's the occasional hum-dinger barrel that makes it out of the factory that will shoot 1/4 MOA consistently, but they're the obscure oddity rather than the norm.

You want better accuracy than that you're going to have to invest in a quality aftermarket barrel, and even that's a crapshoot.

I actually tried both of those primers (among others). I have since switched to Lapua brass and I'm using cci450 primers with similar results.

I fear that you're right. My expectations were so high because my buddy has the same rifle and shoots sub .5 moa all day with handloads. My brother has a model 12 varmiter in 22-250 that shoots bug holes all day with handloads. So I guess I expected similar results. When my gun shot as well as it does with factory ammo, I expected only better results with handloads and it simply has not been the case. I feel I might just have to settle for .75-1 moa accuracy with handloads...

What bullets are you shooting and have you had anyone else try to shoot a group with your rifle?

How are you testing loads? Are you just trying random charges based on what you saw with factory ammo?

I recommend using the OCW method. Other factor is to not worry about what the contents of the factory ammo is. Look at the velocity.

9 times out of ten my 6.5x47's shoot well with 140 Hybrids at 2780 or 130's at 2900. It's what those bullets like in my chamber for multiple barrels now.

Have you chrono'd the rifle at all? Finding good loads is a lot easier with the proper tools

Attachment 5173Attachment 5174

Most of what I have shot has been hornady eld-x bullets. I plan to hunt whitetail long range with this rifle so I really want to make this bullet work. However I have tried a-max and match kings with poor results. I have not had anyone else shoot the rifle, but I'm a more than capable shooter. I've been shooting at a high level for 22 years and was trained by a high level competition shooter (my father) at a young age. You'll just have to take my word for it that I am a competent shooter. I tried the OCW method with both rl16 and h4350 and was unable to find a pattern with h4350. I didnt find a pattern with rl16, but was unable to get consistent groups. I would shoot a bug hole group and come back and shoot an inch group under the exact same conditions. I have also tried to use my chronograph to locate loads that give the lowest std-dev in velocities... I was able to find a pattern using this method aswell but with similar results...

My 6.5 Creedmoor LRP has never had a copper cleaning done to it. 400 rounds through it right now and it is still a 1/2 moa shooter. It was a great shooter right off the bat, but other Savages that I have had (mainly the 10T) needed to get 60 rounds down the barrel without a cleaning to tighten it up. My brother doesn't even work up a load for his competition rifle until he has 120 down the pipe, and that is with an aftermarket barrel.

My best accuracy load is actually amazingly similar to the 140 ELD Match ammo from Hornady in speed (2840 FPS) and accuracy . I use 41.5 Grains of H4350, 140 ELD-M and Winchester primers in Hornady brass.

Just a question, how far do you consider long range hunting? I have seen the 140, 143 and 147's from Hornady all take deer between300 and 400 yards from 6.5 Creedmoors and 6.5x47Lapua. The only difference was the 143 ELD-X had an exit and the 140 ELD-M and 147 ELD-M did not. I do believe that any of them would work dandy out farther, but I have no experience with that.

yep, stop cleaning.

When you say dont clean, do you use a power solvent? Or do you literally mean do not clean it at all?

The farm I hunt has the potential for shots over 600. The fact that the eld-x exits is why I want it for hunting. I'm sure the other bullets kill em just fine, but if I dont see them go down, tracking might be tough.

Seems to me that if your rifle is already shooting factory ammunition in .5-.75" that it would be more than adequate for hunting.

How often have you been cleaning?

Every 20 to 30 rounds I clean to bare steel. This is when my factory load groups seemed to start opening up. I've never gone more than 40 rounds before cleaning to bare steel.

You're 100% right, but I'm kind of a perfectionist. I also shoot this rifle 1200 yards at steel. I'm not a "settle for adequate" kinda guy...

You're going to clean your barrel till it quits before you ever shoot it out..... Let it settle in, you're beating yourself with that cleaning regime. I usually go 400-600rds before cleaning and I switch back and forth between BoreTech C4 and Eliminator. I never clean to bare metal, the copper fouling is needed for barrels to gain consistency.....

In fact the more copper you clean out the more rounds it will take to settle back in.....

I've personally seen both sides of this coin with several of my own personal rifles. I'll stop cleaning the copper out! Thanks for your input! I'm assuming that you still use a powder solvent semi regularly? How frequently do you remove carbon fouling?

Good luck.

BoreTech C4 is a carbon or powder Solvent. BoreTech Eliminator is a copper and carbon solvent. I alternate between the 2 of them every couple hundred rounds, but I've also ran barrels without cleaning for 2k straight before I cleaned them. I've shot out about 10-12 barrels in the last 4yrs and have found constant cleaning leads to much less consistency.

Basically every time you start to see consistency in your groups you're cleaning the rifle and the next range trip the condition of the bore is no longer the same as when you started to see good groups. You don't know what load is actually working best in your rifle because your bore condition has never been the same twice due to all the cleaning. I did a 15rds break in cycle on this current barrel and then started to see it get tighter and more consistent every session up to 125-150rds. Then between 150-175rds it gained about 20fps and tightened up to where it is in the picture I posted earlier. It now has 290rds on it after the first match I shot it in and placed 2nd only because I got lazy in the later part of the day and missed some shots that I normally wouldn't. I likely won't do anything to it till after the Gap Grind in October when I'll put 300+ rounds through it that weekend.

Once the rifle settles in and you can find a load just shoot it. when you run a carbon solvent through it, it shouldn't take more than 5-15rds to tighten back up. If you do a light copper cleaning (Never to bare metal) it should take more than 20-30 rounds to tighten back up.

IMHO, if factory ammo shoots well and your handloads don't, you are doing something wrong. I thought fouling, but if factory shoots .6 it isn't fouled. Are you shooting VLD type bullets, long and pointed, you may have to go down in weight. The VLD type are temperamental as to jump. Some barrel like them jamed and some like them jumping 1/8 inch. Check the Berger site, they recommend you find the seating depth before you work on load and powder. My 6.5x47L likes 130 Bergers and Varget, .010 off.
Bill

I have mostly been shooting eld-x. I would really like to try 140 gr vld hunting bullets, but they're nowhere to be found.

I am not an inexperienced handloader, and have worked up successful handloads for a half dozen other rifles. I am using all premium reloading components, dies, scale, etc. I'm certain that as far as my handloading process goes, I am not doing anything "wrong". That said, obviously something is not right or else I wouldn't be having such difficulties.

I would consider the 135grs classic Hunters before messing with the VLDs. They are very forgiving much like the Hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Delhiguy91

I actually tried both of those primers (among others). I have since switched to Lapua brass and I'm using cci450 primers with similar results.

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more thoughts; This thread has me baffled also when factory ammo outshoots a variety of handloads and testing. We all know that every barrel has a mind of its own. case point; my better barrel loves 41.8 gr h4350 in Starline (heavier brass with no pressure signs). The same load in the shorter barrels shows bad pressure signs (hard lift & ejector marks) and didn't shoot well besides.
Using FC brass (12-13 grains lighter than Starline) the two short barreled rifles showed no pressure with more powder (42.5) and shot faster as well as better group wise than anything tested in the Starline. Maybe the Lapua brass is not an answer in your case.
What velocity did chrono show with the factory loads compared with your testing? Trying to pin point any one single cause is frustrating at least, finally finding the solution is where its all at. The guys on this forum all work pretty hard with problem solving, you've come to the right place.

Pardon my ignorance- OP---- Have you found the best seating depth yet?

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I've gone through a pound of h4350 a half pound of rl16 and a half lb of rl17. After all this, I haven't been able to find a load that consistently matches what I can accomplish with factory ammo....I guess what I'm looking for here is to see if perhaps my expectations for this rifle are unrealistic? Is this gun only a .75" gun?

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So far that would seem to be the case.

Personally I think the problem may lie in harmonics as much or more so than cleaning regimen or component choices.

What are you doing for resizing the brass?

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Originally Posted by Delhiguy91

I have mostly been shooting eld-x. I would really like to try 140 gr vld hunting bullets, but they're nowhere to be found.

I am not an inexperienced handloader, and have worked up successful handloads for a half dozen other rifles. I am using all premium reloading components, dies, scale, etc. I'm certain that as far as my handloading process goes, I am not doing anything "wrong". That said, obviously something is not right or else I wouldn't be having such difficulties.

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Thing is, factory ammo shoots well, so you might need to think a little outside the box, as it were, rather than take the position you're doing everything right and there's no reason your well crafted ammo isn't printing groups as good as over the counter stuff. Really need to step back a bit, IMO, and comments about running factory ammo and your own over a chrono would sure provide some additional useful information.

I'm also shooting 143 gr ELD-x (same 6.5mm bore but in a .260 Rem) and I have to seat mine 0.090" beyond the SAAMI maximum overall length measurement to get a "proper" free travel/jump of 0.015"

That's almost 7/8" of exposed bullet ahead of the case mouth! And partially because of that I also check run-out with a concentricity dial indicator. I also found that decapping separately, forming without a deprimer/cherry (I use Redding dies) and then using a K&B Neck expander mandrel in separate steps made working with those copper pencil bullets much more consistent. Though none of those steps would make 1/10th of an inch difference in group size - but the free-travel might make some difference if you're hopping 0.20" instead of 0.02" to get to the rifling.

You also want to make sure you are using a bullet seated insert designed specifically for VLD style bullets.

When you say Factory Loads shoot better are those also with the ELD-x bullet?

I like where stump went. Bullet run-out can be an accuracy killer.

I'm a new member of this forum but a long time Savage owner and shooter

I have a 12 LRP with well over 3250 rounds through it and measured every group. 5 round groups average around 0.35 and I have shot 20 round groups under 0.7 even with my shooter induced variations.
It is my most accurate rifle, including 10 Savage centerfire rifles, and I have hand loaded for it after shooting about 50 factory rounds through it.

It shoots hand loads much more accurately than factory, about 33% better.

The chamber was very tight and still is very close to SAAMI recommended length.
I initially had a problem with high pressure due to the tight chamber and Savage bored it out by a few thousandths and fixed the problem.
Even with the tight chamber it shot just as accurately as it does now.

My best results come with Lapua small primer brass using CCI BR-4 primers.
BR-4s shoot slightly more accurately (10%) than CCI 400s, and a lot more accurately than large rifle primers (25%).
The primer pockets also last longer with the SRPs than with LRPs.
I recently retired 100 Lapua brass after 21 reloads. Never got more than 6 reloads with LRPs because the primers got loose.

I get the best results with IMR4451 Enduron powder, followed in order by IMR4350 (12%), RL-17 (20%), IMR4064 (30%) and N150 (36%).
My best bullets are 147 gr Hornady ELD-M, 142 gr Sierra SMK, and 140 gr Hornady ELD-M.
Berger 140 gr Match, Long Range and Hybrid bullets also shoot accurately.
It hates 140 gr Sierra SMKs - probably because the bullet body in the lands is shorter than the other bullets.

The 12 LRP has a 26 inch barrel so the loads are different than with the 24 inch barrels in most loading manuals.
You need to use your chronograph to see if there is a difference between factory and your hand loads.
I load for a muzzle velocity of 2663 to 2665 fps for the best accuracy.



I clean my barrel after each session (usually 100 rounds). I use Patch Out to clean and take out copper.
First round out of a cold unfouled barrel is high by about 0.5 -0.6 inches at 100 yards.
By the 3rd round, it is a tack driver.

Mine didn't you good till I had at least 20 or 30 rounds down the barrel and I would clean every four to five hundred rounds. Stop cleaning or get yourself a CBI 28 inch bull barrel. Then see what happens half inch or better .3 should be. Just the other day I messed around with reloader 17 130 grain Berger AR hybrids shot one and a half inch group at 400. today I shot two and a half inch at 600 yards 2.566 the other group with 2.966. It's a 28 inch bull barrel shilen select match. lrp action HS Precision stock. And a Leupold TMR... Load 44 grain reloading 17 CCI benchrest primer Hornady brass muzzle velocity 3030.

As many have noted, every rifle is different. I have found that my LRP, has shot best, so far, with a 142 Nosler Long Range Accubond bullet. Federal Match primer, 37.0 grns of H4350.The cases are Hornady annealed, neck turned, and neck sized only. The bullet is seated at .015 off the lands. The result was a .154 center to center 3 shot group at 100 yds. The only cleaning done is running a bore snake before and after each session. After starting to neck turn the cases there was a noticeable improvement in the groups. Also, I bench rest using a lead sled. Going to start playing with seating depth to see where that leads. Don't give up on the LRP. They are great shooters.