Brass Sizing and the Savage Barrel Nut Equation

Ok, so if the title of this thread caught your interest hopefully you have some good knowledge and understanding of proper brass sizing for precision ammo. This may get a little long winded, but I'll try to keep it simple.

BLUF: This is a research post not really an advice seeking post. I don't plan on changing anything. I know I could get a body die to bump the shoulder further or have the Shell holder or die shaved by a few thou etc. and I will use brass from this barrel as dummy rounds for Jim to do my barrels for next season. Just seeking others experiences with this or other methods of determining sizing specs etc.

Attachment 4060

First off, my current barrel is a Cryo-Treated XCaliber, 8 Twist Chambered in 6.5x47 Lapua by Jim at Apache Gun Works. (Not a ploy) This has been the most accurate barrel I have had to date. There is no questioning the dope. Groups are always small and I have the reloading equipment to squeeze every ounce on performance out of it.

First My Process after every firing:

1. on my Lee Press: Deprime with Might Armory's "The Pua" die.
2. Dry Tumble in Walnut Media with Flitz and a dryer Sheet
3. Anneal on AMP Annealer with Prescribed Collet and Program
4. On my RCBS Summit Press: Size with Forster Bushing-Bump Die (.287 Bushing) (Will expand here later)
5. Tumble off sizing lube
6. Inspect and Clean Primer Pockets
7. Prime (I use my lee press for this as well)
8. Trim on Giraud Trimmer
9. Run all brass through a Sinclair .262 Carbide Mandrel Die
10. Charge to the Kernel on Auto-Trickler with Auto-Throw Combo
11. Seat on RCBS Summit Press with Forster Competition Seater die with the Stem honed to 140Hybrids.

Results:

Groups avg. .2-.4", SD 2 and ES 8 over 10 shot strings. Velocity 2780fps. Load is Lapua Brass (Obvious), CCI450, 36.6grs Varget (Within .02grs every charge), and 140 Berger Hybrid .035 off the lands.

Now the point of this post. My Forster Sizing die is maxed out. Can not bump the shoulder back any more than current. Obviously the goal is .002-.003 Shoulder bump measured with Calipers and Bump Gauge. Here's the scenario:

Using the Calipers and Bump Gauge I completed the Following measurements:

Go-Gauge: 1.425
No-Go: 1.428
Fired Brass: 1.429
Sized Brass: 1.427

Bolt close is slightly stiff, but not tight, so I know that brass is being worked very lightly. Again Sizing die is maxed out and will not bump the shoulder any further than the 1.427 measurement. Doesn't matter how tight it is... period. The beauty of the Savage barrel-nut and a prefit combo allows you to custom headspace for this all to work out which I took the time to do when setting the barrel up. However, I'd like to know if anyone else shooting 6.5x47 or other cartridges are getting numbers similar to this and are also bottomed out in their sizing die?

Oops - didn't read the last paragraph.

I have 1700rds on the barrel. Just interested to here what others chamber specs are seeing. If the chamber was any shorter it wouldn't match up to the die anyways..... So basically did I just get lucky? Or is this pretty much the standard with the 6.5x47?

Lonewolfe have you given any thought to trying the shell holder shims. I believe that Brownell's sells them. Might be just what is needed.

Another option (assuming you want to bump the shoulder a touch more) would be the Redding Competition Shellholder Set. It's a set of 5 shell holders that go from +0.002" to +0.010" in 0.002" increments.

Regarding the original question, it's really a matter of SAAMI specs. SAAMI spec's are very wide. For example, most case dimension prints are +/- 0.010". For go/no-go gauges the tolerance between the two gauges is very tight at 0.0035" +/-0.0005", but they can fall anywhere within that +/-0.010" range for the case print. Because of that there can be a difference between what your dies are, what your chamber is and what your gauges are - especially when the dies, reamer and gauges come from different manufacturers.

So I actually picked up the Redding shell holder set. Problem is they are all + .002, .004 etc. in this case I would actually need a -.002 shell holder. As the shell holders work by raising the case closer to the Die. Since my Die is bottomed out already this is no different than trying to turn the Die tighter.




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

So I actually picked up the Redding shell holder set. Problem is they are all + .002, .004 etc. in this case I would actually need a -.002 shell holder. As the shell holders work by raising the case closer to the Die. Since my Die is bottomed out already this is no different than trying to turn the Die tighter.

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Just checked the Redding set I had bought for a set of .222 Rem dies that were off and your right, they're the opposite of what I was thinking.

Best bet would be to just buy a spare standard shell holder and then file/polish the top surface it down to what you need it to be and just keep it with your dies so you know that's the one to use with them.

Or you could send it to a friend to turn .002 off the bottom. My question is, what is more consistent? Bottoming the die and holder with a Lee press that stops? Not bottoming on the holder with a press with stops. Camming over on a press that does not have a stop with the die contacting the holder(including a modified Lee press) or camming over with the die not contacting the holder?

I have a 6.5 creed that the head space is set minimum
My Forrester fl die would not size brass to no bolt resistance.
Using a Forrester press, I faced a couple of thousandths off the bottom of die
Bumping the shoulder back .0015-.002 is doing well with minimum case growth after sizing ( usually .001 to .002 on each firing)
It is obvious that what you are doing is working but I understand your wanting to find out if it is the norm.
McFurious hit the nail on the head with the tolerances
It is up to you whether to trim a shell holder or the die as either will work
I hope this helps
Jack

Just for giggles, try sizing on a closed frame press. I too have a Summit Press and find that "tough brass" causes it to spring more than a closed frame like a Rock Chucker or for that matter even a Partner press.

If you don't have a closed frame press, take your die to a friend's that does and see what your results are.

Also, the Summit press really needs some work to take all the slack out of it. I had to wrap a shim around the top of the column and then force the top casting onto it as it was pretty loose. I think I used .003" shim stock. The lower casting isn't as loose but I plan on setting both top and bottom in some Devcon so there is ZERO movement, even when screws are loose.

Next, the guide screws on the back need to be as snug as possible but let the die holder to move. I adjust one at a time by snugging it down so the handle, when at 90 degrees to the column won't move under it's own weight. I then loosen very slowly until the handle just starts to drop slowly. Set lock nut and repeat on the other.

I like the press but my only complaint is that it doesn't do a real good job of sizing. I now just use it for seating bullets and use either my Rock Chucker or Partner for F/L sizing and shoulder bumping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

So I actually picked up the Redding shell holder set. Problem is they are all + .002, .004 etc. i

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Its the reason I use Skip's die shims w/ .120" shellholders. The set come with a .003, .004, .005, .006, .007, .008, and .010. I'll initially set/adjust the die with the .006 then if for some reason I want or need more or less bump I'll use a +/- shim. They come in handy when sizing brass for multiple rifles chambered for the same cartridge without having to readjust the die for each.
http://www.benchrite.com/cscart/inde...oduct_id=29818

Bill

Here is a little info on what I have going with my 47L. Using my Hornady gauge with the D .400 insert, I get the following measurements with my calipers;
1.438" on my PTG Go gauge
1.440" on my sized brass
I don't have a number for you on my fired brass because I don't have any right now and don't remember what that number is. I usually measure the first few cases I resize in every batch and go for .002'' bump. I can tell you that about 2 years ago when I installed the barrel (Shilen chambered with PTG reamer) I could not get the shoulder bump I wanted and did end up shortening my shell holder a bit on some emery cloth. I don't recall how much I took off of it either, and I don't keep notes in my folder for that kind of stuff. Maybe I should start keeping more info. Hope some of that info helps you out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Its the reason I use Skip's die shims w/ .120" shellholders. The set come with a .003, .004, .005, .006, .007, .008, and .010. I'll initially set/adjust the die with the .006 then if for some reason I want or need more or less bump I'll use a +/- shim. They come in handy when sizing brass for multiple rifles chambered for the same cartridge without having to readjust the die for each.
http://www.benchrite.com/cscart/inde...oduct_id=29818

Bill

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I like that idea but where are you getting the .120 shell holders? I checked all of mine and they are all around .125"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

Just for giggles, try sizing on a closed frame press. I too have a Summit Press and find that "tough brass" causes it to spring more than a closed frame like a Rock Chucker or for that matter even a Partner press.

If you don't have a closed frame press, take your die to a friend's that does and see what your results are.

Also, the Summit press really needs some work to take all the slack out of it. I had to wrap a shim around the top of the column and then force the top casting onto it as it was pretty loose. I think I used .003" shim stock. The lower casting isn't as loose but I plan on setting both top and bottom in some Devcon so there is ZERO movement, even when screws are loose.

Next, the guide screws on the back need to be as snug as possible but let the die holder to move. I adjust one at a time by snugging it down so the handle, when at 90 degrees to the column won't move under it's own weight. I then loosen very slowly until the handle just starts to drop slowly. Set lock nut and repeat on the other.

I like the press but my only complaint is that it doesn't do a real good job of sizing. I now just use it for seating bullets and use either my Rock Chucker or Partner for F/L sizing and shoulder bumping.

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I’d be interested in a post on this with pictures to ensure I understand what you are describing.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Or you could send it to a friend to turn .002 off the bottom. My question is, what is more consistent? Bottoming the die and holder with a Lee press that stops? Not bottoming on the holder with a press with stops. Camming over on a press that does not have a stop with the die contacting the holder(including a modified Lee press) or camming over with the die not contacting the holder?

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You lost me bro.... I’m running the RCBS Summit press for sizing....


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JW

I have a 6.5 creed that the head space is set minimum
My Forrester fl die would not size brass to no bolt resistance.
Using a Forrester press, I faced a couple of thousandths off the bottom of die
Bumping the shoulder back .0015-.002 is doing well with minimum case growth after sizing ( usually .001 to .002 on each firing)
It is obvious that what you are doing is working but I understand your wanting to find out if it is the norm.
McFurious hit the nail on the head with the tolerances
It is up to you whether to trim a shell holder or the die as either will work
I hope this helps
Jack

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I’m getting .002 shoulder bump consistently, but would like to have the ability to get .003. I spoke a Mark at Accurate Ordnance and he suggested to have my next barrel custom chamber to my Die. Either that or try the Redding Competition sizing Die. Which may end up being what I do with the next barrel.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brett

Here is a little info on what I have going with my 47L. Using my Hornady gauge with the D .400 insert, I get the following measurements with my calipers;
1.438" on my PTG Go gauge
1.440" on my sized brass
I don't have a number for you on my fired brass because I don't have any right now and don't remember what that number is. I usually measure the first few cases I resize in every batch and go for .002'' bump. I can tell you that about 2 years ago when I installed the barrel (Shilen chambered with PTG reamer) I could not get the shoulder bump I wanted and did end up shortening my shell holder a bit on some emery cloth. I don't recall how much I took off of it either, and I don't keep notes in my folder for that kind of stuff. Maybe I should start keeping more info. Hope some of that info helps you out.

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Funny... My gauges are also from PTG and they are .010 shorter than yours....



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Its the reason I use Skip's die shims w/ .120" shellholders. The set come with a .003, .004, .005, .006, .007, .008, and .010. I'll initially set/adjust the die with the .006 then if for some reason I want or need more or less bump I'll use a +/- shim. They come in handy when sizing brass for multiple rifles chambered for the same cartridge without having to readjust the die for each.
http://www.benchrite.com/cscart/inde...oduct_id=29818

Bill

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I’ll look into these! Thanks Bill!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Funny... My gauges are also from PTG and they are .010 shorter than yours....



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I can only guess that there is a tolerance difference in our measuring equipment. Could be the hole diameter in the bushing, hole chamfer angle or depth, difference in caliper calibration, or who knows! I use my equipment as a way to compare my fired vs. unfired vs. sized or whatever, for my reference purposes. It would be interesting to measure all of our stuff with the same caliper and bushing, who knows what numbers we would come up with then. I think we can only use our own equipment to compare our own components. It would be nice if we had a good, known standard to work with. Who knows! Part of the fun/ frustration with reloading... chasing consistency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brett

I like that idea but where are you getting the .120 shell holders?

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I used a surface grinder but you can work'm down with course grit paper They don't have to be perfectly square as long as the maximum deck height at any point is .120 or less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Ok, so if the title of this thread caught your interest hopefully you have some good knowledge and understanding of proper brass sizing for precision ammo. This may get a little long winded, but I'll try to keep it simple.

BLUF: This is a research post not really an advice seeking post. I don't plan on changing anything. I know I could get a body die to bump the shoulder further or have the Shell holder or die shaved by a few thou etc. and I will use brass from this barrel as dummy rounds for Jim to do my barrels for next season. Just seeking others experiences with this or other methods of determining sizing specs etc.

Attachment 4060

First off, my current barrel is a Cryo-Treated XCaliber, 8 Twist Chambered in 6.5x47 Lapua by Jim at Apache Gun Works. (Not a ploy) This has been the most accurate barrel I have had to date. There is no questioning the dope. Groups are always small and I have the reloading equipment to squeeze every ounce on performance out of it.

First My Process after every firing:

1. on my Lee Press: Deprime with Might Armory's "The Pua" die.
2. Dry Tumble in Walnut Media with Flitz and a dryer Sheet
3. Anneal on AMP Annealer with Prescribed Collet and Program
4. On my RCBS Summit Press: Size with Forster Bushing-Bump Die (.287 Bushing) (Will expand here later)
5. Tumble off sizing lube
6. Inspect and Clean Primer Pockets
7. Prime (I use my lee press for this as well)
8. Trim on Giraud Trimmer
9. Run all brass through a Sinclair .262 Carbide Mandrel Die
10. Charge to the Kernel on Auto-Trickler with Auto-Throw Combo
11. Seat on RCBS Summit Press with Forster Competition Seater die with the Stem honed to 140Hybrids.

Results:

Groups avg. .2-.4", SD 2 and ES 8 over 10 shot strings. Velocity 2780fps. Load is Lapua Brass (Obvious), CCI450, 36.6grs Varget (Within .02grs every charge), and 140 Berger Hybrid .035 off the lands.

Now the point of this post. My Forster Sizing die is maxed out. Can not bump the shoulder back any more than current. Obviously the goal is .002-.003 Shoulder bump measured with Calipers and Bump Gauge. Here's the scenario:

Using the Calipers and Bump Gauge I completed the Following measurements:

Go-Gauge: 1.425
No-Go: 1.428
Fired Brass: 1.429
Sized Brass: 1.427

Bolt close is slightly stiff, but not tight, so I know that brass is being worked very lightly. Again Sizing die is maxed out and will not bump the shoulder any further than the 1.427 measurement. Doesn't matter how tight it is... period. The beauty of the Savage barrel-nut and a prefit combo allows you to custom headspace for this all to work out which I took the time to do when setting the barrel up. However, I'd like to know if anyone else shooting 6.5x47 or other cartridges are getting numbers similar to this and are also bottomed out in their sizing die?

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sounds like an excellent procedure.

the reason your cases are a little tight is not your shoulder bump. in fact i set my dies up for only a 1 thousandth shoulder bump.

the forster bushing bump die only sizes the neck and bumps the shoulder. it does not size the case body. i would reccomended you either get a body die or a full length bushing die or the forster full length sizing die honed to your neck specifications.

if you do decide to use a body die check your shoulder bump measurement afterwards. brass will probably grow and you will need to run it through your bump die again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

You lost me bro.... I’m running the RCBS Summit press for sizing....


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2 part answer.

I dont like having a tight cartridge fitting to any accurate rifle. That was popular a while back but these days I know of few people keeping the case fit tight in the chamber after loading. You already know someone that can help you remove material from both the holder or die. This is an answer to a question that may not have been asked.

Your RCBS press cams over when the ram reaches top dead center and then moves downward all in the same handle motion. This can be done with or without the die and the holder making contact. The Lee Classic has ram stops machined into the linkage. You can adjust your die to either make contact with the holder or not. One thing I noticed was that I get more consistent sizing with a shorter base to datum measurement while utilizing one of these 4 methods. Your method appears to be bottoming out on the die but it is not stated if you cam over. Camming over in my opinion if done with force when the die and holder contact, could increase the wear and tear on press. That is another discussion though. This post may be another discussion as well. My interest was which of the four you use. You use a press that has the capacity to cam over and you bottom out on the die. Where in the stroke this happens is still not clear to me.


Above M12lrs makes a great point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

2 part answer.

I dont like having a tight cartridge fitting to any accurate rifle. That was popular a while back but these days I know of few people keeping the case fit tight in the chamber after loading. You already know someone that can help you remove material from both the holder or die. This is an answer to a question that may not have been asked.

Your RCBS press cams over when the ram reaches top dead center and then moves downward all in the same handle motion. This can be done with or without the die and the holder making contact. The Lee Classic has ram stops machined into the linkage. You can adjust your die to either make contact with the holder or not. One thing I noticed was that I get more consistent sizing with a shorter base to datum measurement while utilizing one of these 4 methods. Your method appears to be bottoming out on the die but it is not stated if you cam over. Camming over in my opinion if done with force when the die and holder contact, could increase the wear and tear on press. That is another discussion though. This post may be another discussion as well. My interest was which of the four you use. You use a press that has the capacity to cam over and you bottom out on the die. Where in the stroke this happens is still not clear to me.


Above M12lrs makes a great point.

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https://youtu.be/vYJy-5rVs0s


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Your press cams over. What variation in length do you see with that press? (base to shoulder)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Your press cams over. What variation in length do you see with that press? (base to shoulder)

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Not seeing variation measurements are as explained in original post. I’m seeing limited capability of the sizing Die....


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

I used a surface grinder but you can work'm down with course grit paper They don't have to be perfectly square as long as the maximum deck height at any point is .120 or less.

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Gotcha, I thought you had a source for buying ones that were made with a reduced height.

When I first headspaced my new 22-250 barrel, I apparently set it a bit too close. Although factory ammo would fit fine, my RCBS FL die would bottom out on the shell holder and not bump the shoulder back once my brass hit that stiff bolt closure max dimension. So after pondering my options, I loosened the barrel nut and backed the barrel off a few thou. Problem solved, everything fits and works like it should and I can get a good .0015 to .002 bump.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf

Not seeing variation measurements are as explained in original post. I’m seeing limited capability of the sizing Die....


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I see a barrel nut that compensates

Quote:

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Originally Posted by m12lrs

sounds like an excellent procedure.

the reason your cases are a little tight is not your shoulder bump. in fact i set my dies up for only a 1 thousandth shoulder bump.

the forster bushing bump die only sizes the neck and bumps the shoulder. it does not size the case body. i would reccomended you either get a body die or a full length bushing die or the forster full length sizing die honed to your neck specifications.

if you do decide to use a body die check your shoulder bump measurement afterwards. brass will probably grow and you will need to run it through your bump die again.

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you are getting a consistent 2 thousandth bump now which is more than i set my dies up for. why do you want a 3 thousandth bump?

if so just loosen the nut and back the barrel up a touch. the go gauge is minimum saami specs and the no go gauge is made to max saami spec. you could even headspace with the no go but i don't know why you would.

frankly i would set the die up for a 1 thousandth shoulder bump and resize the case body by one of the methods suggested above.

So based on feedback I think I'm going to look into getting a honed FL die for next season. I don't plan on changing from the 6.5x47 for match use any time soon as it's literally been the most consistent and most accurate cartridge I've shot to date. So it would be an investment for down the road.

Quote:

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I think I'm going to look into getting a honed FL die for next season

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Doing this changed my game in F/TR mid and long range. It was an experiment with a lee die that took me that direction about 7 years ago. The only die I have that can compete with it is a forester that I bored to the same dimensions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Doing this changed my game in F/TR mid and long range. It was an experiment with a lee die that took me that direction about 7 years ago. The only die I have that can compete with it is a forester that I bored to the same dimensions.

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Just ordered one from Forster this morning! Really it only makes sense being that I now know all of the specs I want a sized case to meet!

I had a problem with not being able to set shoulders back on my .308 110FP. Rather than going through the trouble of tightening the head space on the rifle I just took .001" off the top of my shell holder. didn't need any tools other than some wet dry paper and an old piece of glass for a flat surface.