.223 Short Savage

Hello Guys, (Mod's if this is inappropriate let me know and I'll pull it down) some of you may have followed my first wildcat quest here. http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...lr-replacement
https://i.imgur.com/ENkQGqj.jpg

well the developer of the cartridge has just informed me of some exciting news. He's is willing to offer his reamer to a few folks (who are competent gunsmith's or will use one) for no charge beyond shipping and a refundable deposit (assuming no damage is imparted to the reamer) the only thing he is asking in exchange is to share the data gathered from shooting (velocities, accuracy, kill reports ect....)

Right now he and myself are the only end users. I personally used a factory .223 sporter barrel that I set back and re-chambered. I should have threaded the tennon rather than just machining it off to be able to put the barrel nut on from the front. it's a fun little cartridge and is crazy efficient. the report is also very mild, it's in essence a modern 22k hornet that runs more like a 218 bee. I'm getting right at moa accuracy with some loads. and with powders like titegroup you can load it from 22 magnum levels on up to 3200+ ft/sec with 40gr bullets using lil gun.

https://i.imgur.com/yfwBFIo.jpg
brass is formed from .223 remington, C4HD can make dies. I personally just payed him(in labor) to form me some cases and have been using 22 tcm dies. I just use them to size the neck and bump the shoulder as needed plus I haven't had to yet but a .223 remington die could size the base of the cartridge if need be. I currently have 3 firings on my initial 50 cases and still no chambering issues.

now the down side is it's not a repeater, not a big deal for me, I just didn't install the ejector and pluck the cases off by hand. then single feed. for more info feel free to visit his facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/223-Short-C...=page_internal

I will try and get some photos up as photobucket burned us all!

So just about a 221 fireball?

Edit: or between a 7.62x25 and 221 fireball.

here are some more pictures

https://i.imgur.com/0cXf62i.jpg

L-R .223 short, .223 Remington, .223 necked to 6mm with 105gr nosler RDF prior to fire forming into a 6x45AL (another project were working on) and .243 Winchester

https://i.imgur.com/3jmempM.jpg
The test bed. stevens 200 with stock 1:9 .223 sporter shortened to 18" and chambered in .223 short

https://i.imgur.com/HeyoOI3.jpg
this is my brass with 13.5gr lil gun and 40gr v-max achieved 3264 ft/sec average from the little 18" barrel and still has room for improvement from what I can tell. don't plan to go much higher if I can find a accuracy node around this speed i'm extremely happy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RustyShackle

So just about a 221 fireball?

---

.221 fireball is 1.4" case

this little pipsqueek is 1.125" case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer

.221 fireball is 1.4" case

this little pipsqueek is 1.125" case

---

yeah, I checked the FB page and made and edit. Looks neat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RustyShackle

yeah, I checked the FB page and made and edit. Looks neat

---

yeah its pretty much between the .22 reed express (7.62x25 necked to 22 cal) and fireball.

I'm a big fan of the little 221 fb, usually the only one at the range with one. Fun to shoot micro recoiling rifles every now and again. How far have you stretched the distance with this little bugger?

Have you used RL-7 powder yet? Curious how it would perform.

haven't really had a chance to play with it much. the last 3 months between moving twice (yeah bad deal!) and the heat I haven't been out. I vaporized a ground squirrel at 40 yards with the short 40gr jhp bullet was pretty impressed! even my straight .223 doesn't do as much damage.

I did all my load testing at 100 yards and also did some water jug testing at 100. with 3.5gr titegroup I was getting 2300 ft/sec and it penetrated 3 jugs and kept going to my suprise with the 40jhp.

with the same bullet at 3150 ft/sec It shredded the front jug (lost some fragments) penetrated the second jug and stopped in the 3rd jug. .46" expansion and 29gr final weight.

the 40 v-max at 3264 turned the first jug inside out and didn't even exit! made for quite the water show.

have not tried rl-7 yet. I think it may be a touch too slow. I have some 2400, H110, and 1680 to try once life normalizes.

Interesting..... you could use a 38 or 357 sizing die to size the web and base. I considered a 22 or 6 or 6.5x357 max, though it would be neat in a Contender and it has been done. 256 Win is similar.

Keep dreaming!!!!! Getting there is more than half the fun!

Bill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bsekf

Interesting..... you could use a 38 or 357 sizing die to size the web and base. I considered a 22 or 6 or 6.5x357 max, though it would be neat in a Contender and it has been done. 256 Win is similar.

Keep dreaming!!!!! Getting there is more than half the fun!

Bill

---

He ran a piece of brass in his forming dies and it worked. we ran the figures and it should be a possibility using his current reamer and you would just have to manually cut the rim recess. He is actually looking for someone to do a rimmed variant. had one guy with a contender that was supposed to try it but didn't follow through. so it is a possibility if interested!

oops just realized you said on the maximum case. yeah this would be based on a smaller case. want to say even 38 special could be donor brass. I wouldn't recommend running pressures much past 37,500psi if that were the case. +p brass I hear has a little more meat at the web and can be run into the low 40k range.

We have conformation from lee that they can do a run of dies so if we can organize a group buy of 10 or more people it's looking like a 3 die set (sizer, seater, factory crimp) will be $80 to your door and possibly less if we get over 10 adopters. cost will be actual cost no profits made.

What twist rate are you shooting?

I have a 12 twist 22-250 barrel that might make a good candidate for this little hummer.

I'm running a 1:9 twist stock sporter barrel. the creator is running a 1:12 and 1:9

Unless there is enough shank to re-thread after cutting the entire chamber (at least till the neck) off a 22-250 I don't think that will work out for you.

What's the H20 capacity ?

Looks like a fun cartridge for sure.

16.3gr with fire formed "neck sized" case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RustyShackle

So just about a 221 fireball?

Edit: or between a 7.62x25 and 221 fireball.

---

Yes. Short is 1.135" FB is 1.400".

I modified an original Savage 223 LH Axis with a project provided 1:12 barrel for the basic light bullet testing, tested off and on for a long time with that barrel.

Recently I upgraded to a takeoff Accutrigger, 17" x 1" diameter bull barrel made from a Green Mountain 1:9 blank, I added 3.75lbs of weight to the stock and had to do some forearm work to accommodate the heavy barrel.

It is basically a cheap 12lb+ test bench rifle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 223Short

Yes. Short is 1.135" FB is 1.400".

---

good to see ya here Brian. I almost forgot about this thread.

Very interesting posting!

I plan on re-barreling a Mosin Nagant that i have with the .223 Short - i don't like it's recoil now, .223 Short will be much less. - Will let you know how it works out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 223Randy

I plan on re-barreling a Mosin Nagant that i have with the .223 Short - i don't like it's recoil now, .223 Short will be much less. - Will let you know how it works out

---

:thumb: be interested to see how it works out. and recoil umm yeah a springer air rifle has more recoil in my opinion. lol

https://goo.gl/136Xgf

Went to my new local range July 1st and tested 6 loads.

4 of the 6 loads got ≤0.5 MOA, which is my passing grade.

Cases: Lake City Commercial Once Fired; Primers: CCI No 400 Small Rifle


1 x 0.477 MOA - Pass (40g Arms - TG 5.4g)

1 x 0.455 MOA - Pass (30g BVG - TG 5.2g)

1 x 0.402 MOA - Pass (30g BVG - TG 5.4g)

1 x 0.223 MOA - Pass (50g TNT - TG 4.9g)


2 x > 0.5 MOA - Fail - (36g BVG TG 5.3g; 40g Arms 11.4g LG)

Results - All 50 yards; TG =TiteGroup; LG = L'Il Gun

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...d7&oe=5BE9F0D6
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...3c&oe=5BA85E06https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0b&oe=5BE5D07C
https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...97&oe=5BD7576E

(Highlight and copy this post, this is the entire story in a nutshell)


Special Thanks To: Larry Trotter, Jed Moskwa, Shane Hayes, George Arredondo Jr., Randy Hutton, GBO Members who provided valuable feedback/input and those that just dropped by and followed the project, GBO Forum Moderators, and GBO Founder Bill, GBO, Saubier.com, Savage Shooters.com


You all have my sincere thanks on helping me make this journey, I could not have done it without you.


223 Short v1 Part 1: Project Summary - Took long enough to get here, that's what you get when you have very little money and no deadlines.


Design Goals:


Cheap Parent Brass - 223 Remington √
Small Powder Capacity - 14gr L’Il Gun = 22 Hornet √
Design: Modern High Pressure √
Performance: 22 Hornet + 50% = 225 yd Coyote Kill √+ (275+yd MPBR)
Simple Savage 223 Rem. Barrel Setback & Rechamber √


A list of loads that may give the best starting place for the adoption of the 223 Short v1, all loads produced <0.5MOA at 50 yards. I only shot for accuracy. We know the round can be hot rodded and I'll leave that up to others.


Parent Cases: Lake City Commercial Once Fired


TiteGroup
30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.475" - 5.2g
30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.475" - 5.4g
40gr Armscor COAL 1.400" - 5.4g
50gr TNT COAL 1.615" - 4.9g


Benchmark
36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.595” - 12.6g
36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.595” - 12.8g
36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.595” - 13.3g
36gr Barnes Varmint Grenade COAL 1.595” - 13.4g
53gr V-Max COAL 1.615” - 13.0g


L'Il Gun
40gr Sierra Varminter COAL 1.500” - 13.2g
50gr V-Max COAL 1.596” - 11.2g
50gr TNT COAL 1.65” - 11.6g
53gr Nosler Varmageddon COAL 1.700” - 11.8g


THE HARDWARE AND TOOLS I USED TO GET THERE


Test Rifle: Savage Axis I Left Hand
Private Sourced Accutrigger
Cut Down & Reinforced Forearm to Accommodate Heavy Barrel
Green Mountain 1:9 Very Heavy Barrel Blank
Cut down to 17" with 11º Target Crown
Chambered by Larry Trotter
PT&G Reamer Print # 51121
Added 3.75lbs Lead Shot to Stock
CenterPointe 4-16x40 Scope
V-Life 6-24x50 Scope
Total Rifle Weight 11.5lbs


Case Prep: Formed in custom CH4D FL Sizer/Forming die using Lee Challenger Breech Lock press with extended breaker bar for extra leverage in a single stroke, Hornady Case Lube Spray


Neck cut off using Proxxon KG-80 Mini Mitre Saw in modified Squirrel Daddy 300 Blackout Jig


Neck trimmed to length using Little Crow Gun Works custom trimmer chucked in cordless drill/driver - have upgraded to Trim-It II


Neck chamfer and debur using Lyman Case Prep Multi-Tool Ends chucked in cordless drill/driver


Flash hole debur using Lyman Flash Hole Uniforming Tool chucked in a cordless drill/driver


Primer Pocket crimp removal using Lyman Primer Pocket Reamer by Hand


Frankford Quick-N-EZ Vibratory Case Tumbler, Lyman Tuff-Nut Media


Neck Only Resize: Upgraded to Lee 223 Collet Die Unmodified with Custom Case Holder


Neck Expanded using Lyman Neck Expander M-1 cut down to 2.5255” body length


Decapping: Lee Universal Decapper unmodified


Primer Seating: On-Press Lee Breech Lock Challenger Press


Primers: CCI No 400 Small Rifle


MTM Universal Loading Tray


Powder Delivery: Lee Safety Powder Scale, Lee Powder Dippers, Frankford DS-750 Digital Powder Scale, Lee Powder Funnel, Lee Perfect Powder Measure, Lee Perfect Powder Measure Deluxe


Bullet Seating: Lee Challenger Breech Lock, Lee 221 FB Seater base cut down 0.275” & body stem cut down 0.250” to total body length 2.07”, 22 TCM Seater Will Work, Lee 223 Rem Factory Crimp base cut down to 2.2040”, Hornady Cam-lock Bullet Puller Unmodified, No-Name Dial Calipers x 2, Upgraded to Husky Digital Caliper


The second part of the project is the development of the 22 Mamba.


Brian Lewis

Being a dedicated wildcatter/hand loader I just couldn't not comment. Last year I fabricobbled up 2 pistol caliber barrels for my Axis. One in 7.62 X 25, 1 in 10 twist. Excellent for deer and pigs, inside 150 yards. About 450 FPS faster than my CZ-52 (< 1 MOA ADL.)

The other is a 22 TCM, My TCM seems to duplicate your results, without all the work. I worked up a .22 reed express, for a hand gun, (Functional, but disappointing) but never tried it in a long gun. I have friends that shoot the Reed, but envy the simplicity and case capicity of the TCM. I purposely lengthened the throat so I can seat longer/heavier bullets, just touching the lands, works well with heavy bullets and fast powders.

Can you tell us more about the "mamba"?

BTW, I think that summary is a really nice addition, thank you.

RED

With 5.5gr of Titegroup and a 22 TCM 40gr bullet, the 223 Short is a 150 yrd DRT coyote killer.

The 22 Mamba version adds 10% powder capacity over the 223 Short version.

With a High BC Bullet and 13+ gr of L'Il Gun, the Short produces 3000 fps+ and software says 275 yds with 300+ ft/lb. and operates at 55k+ psi.

The 22 Mamba Finish Chamber Reamer and the FL Sizer/Former die reamer have arrived.

The 22 Mamba - Here is what we can now do:

Rechamber Barrels
Make FL Sizer/Forming Dies
Make Go-Gauges
Make Case Headspace Gauges
Make Custom Shell Holders and Modified Decap Pins for Lee 223 Rem. Collet Neck Sizing Die

Just add a 22 TCM Bullet Seater!