I want install a 22-250 barrel. I don't have go no-go gauges. Can you set the head space properly with 22-250 brass?
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I want install a 22-250 barrel. I don't have go no-go gauges. Can you set the head space properly with 22-250 brass?
Properly? No. Close? Yes.
NO. Anyone that says yes would be wrong.
Yes.
Brass is "spongy" and you're likely to not get great results.
I have heard if guys filling a piece of brass with jb weld or similar and using that. Don't know that I would recommend it.
If you do use brass to set your headspace just let the folks next to you at the range know that you may not have your gun within SAAMI specs and your rifle may grenade.:ban:
You can rent headspace gauges for a reasonable amount.
I've changed barrels over 100 times, always used fired fl sized brass to set headspace, no blow ups yet.
joe b.
His question was, could you set headspace "properly" with brass, not whether or not it could be done. Big difference. I'm just surprised so many backyard gunsmiths would risk it, let alone promote such irresponsible practices.
Anybody willing to rent me some 22-250 gauges?
Yes you can. It can be a bit of trail and error if you are tyring to match another chambver like I was, but got close and then fine tuned it.
Pray tell what blows up?Quote:
If you do use brass to set your headspace just let the folks next to you at the range know that you may not have your gun within SAAMI specs and your rifle may grenade.:ban:
You can rent headspace gauges for a reasonable amount
If its too long you will get one of two results.
1. Its too far out and the thing won't fire because the shoulder does not stop and the firing pin pushes the case as it hits the prime
2. Its on the far side of field reject like many mil surplus and you fire form the case to the chamber. That won't blow up either.
You are better off doing a minimum bump back and let the case live as long as it normally would.
3. Too tight and the bolt wont close. Also won't blow up.
Try a British 303, head space and chamber are out of sight, you may get 3 reloads before the brass cracks, but it won't blow up.
I can't believe how much misinformation and dangerous suggestions about headspace are on here.
This ^Quote:
Originally Posted by RP12
I always use a a piece of brass for a go but I always use a no go
It's simple if a no go does not go you can't be to far out and if you are to tight bolt won't close
Read this and you may re-think your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech/....htm?lid=17125
Some things just require the correct tools. You can get by without them on some level or another but to perform the task correctly you will need the proper tools. The gauges are not cost prohibitive, and are a far cry from the expense of a doctor visit or replacing damage parts (bolt head, extractor, action etc...). A case head separation can case all kinds of damage to the rifle, you and/or others.
I try to think of the poor soul who may end up with a rifle of mine in the coming years and I don't want to lay a trap for someone.
Good Luck!
The questions was do have to have the gauge(s) , I prefer them but I can also wing it as I did recently (after I had explored it with the right gauges)
The reality is a case separation is not going to occur on a first firing.
If you do max resize, it will occur on the 5th to 8th firing.
It helps iuf you list exactly what you mean and or bring in references per the one post.Quote:
I can't believe how much misinformation and dangerous suggestions about headspace are on here.
It more or less confirms my position.Quote:
When you holler Wolf, and there is no wolf, then you loose credibility.
So, first mistake in their write-up is the neck cracking. That's an anneal issue (the neck got hardened and split, annealing will solve that) - head space has nothing to do with it.
Next, base cracks. That is only loosely associated withy head spacing. If you never shoot that piece of brass again, its zero.
Its only if you reload does it begin to factor in.
And then its still going to happen if you do not do minimum bump back.
Most people do not work with Mil Surplus guns, that's my background and it teaches you a lot.
Said guns are not intended to use reloaded ammunition. They are intended to have larger chambers (and head space) so that in combat you don't foul out of the fight with a crudded up chamber.
That's where I learned about base cracking, full re-size on a gun that is at field reject from the factory (or armory) and its going to go pretty fast.
Rather than say its going to kill you run and hide, it would be better to explain it correctly and the avoidance for that.
Head space gauges are not going to do squat in that regard. A shoulder measurement on your fired case and setting up to bump back .002 will on the other hand.
No firing not firing the round is not a disastrous thing, though I have done it and its annoying (I had 3 other guns so did not stop my fun that day)
Sinclair sells head space gauges and I am glad they do, but they over do it in their zeal IMNSHO
Wrong again. The question was " Can you set the head space properly with 22-250 brass?"Quote:
Originally Posted by RC20
The answer is still no, no matter what theory you can conjure up. Sizing dies are not made with the same reamer a chamber is reamed with. Tolerance stacking becomes an issue.
If if you know the datum diameter and can measure from the datum to the cartridge base correctly, and can find a piece of brass that fits that measurement, you can set your headspace fairly close if you can guarantee that screwing the barrel down doesn't change the brass measurement. Even then, its still not being set "properly".
This thread has about run it's course.
For a person that deals in thousands of an inch for a living it is not so scary. For the average person who has never done dimensional measurements.... it can defy logic. Hottolds hit it as did joeb and RC 20. If you shoot factory ammo, gauges are a safe bet. I would be more afraid of head protrusion than missing headspace by a small amount for the reason RC 20 stated. There is a small window that you can set headspace within. If you size your brass excessively small, the face of your bolt head could possibly rub on the face of the barrel breach. If you use brass to headspace and you comprehend the process and understand what the datum is and how it is measured there is a good chance the sky will not fall. If you are unfamiliar, use a gauge.....check it thrice. The most important thing when head spacing a barrel is that you understand all of the relationships that are involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by RP12
I did not see anything that harmed anyone. In my younger days with no mentor I did some foolish things as a reloader. Fortunately I survived. I also learned when an Savagesmith goes by internet articles and posts and not real world experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by rbp75503
I think the biggest issue is encouraging individuals who have little to no idea what a "thousands" of an inch is, to build a firearm where these "thousands" become critical quickly. Only takes using a piece of brass used in said "historical" military firearm as a head space gauge, where it might be marginal at best. Then they go watch YouTube and see someone give them faulty information about setting dies and suddenly they are approaching an unsafe realm. Tread lightly would be my 0.02.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinhood
Some of you guys would go nuts if you had to deal with an Encore or Contender. They often have +/- .004 headspace, because of the location of the lug, the hole in the lug or the hole in the frame. You learn to measure your headspace and reload in accordance, or you live with poor accuracy and/or case separation. How do you dare fireform cases?
One of the beauties of being able to install your own barrel is that you can set the headspace. If you don't have the tools to measure headspace or don't know how to use them, IMHO, you have no business changing barrels.
I don't use commercial no/nogo gages or buy factory ammo. I have a couple of dedicated pieces of brass for each barrel and use 2 pieces of scotch tape for nogo. And, I make very sure my headspace doesn't exceed .002. Never had a case separation in a Savage ... yet. Headspace isn't the boogieman, I worry more about somebody trying to put a 6.5x47L in a 243. The 243 will go in a 7-08 or 308 and probably fire.... but accuracy and case life will suck!
Bill
This is what I have done for 30 years also. However, I still would recommend gauges if someone asks.Quote:
I don't use commercial no/nogo gauges.... I have a couple of dedicated pieces of brass for each barrel... And, I make very sure my headspace doesn't exceed .002. Never had a case separation in a Savage
When it comes to re-barreling a rifle, there are generally accepted practices that guys on forums like this agree with. But this is a public forum where people are giving advice to an anonymous individual with an unknown skill set and and unknown level of comprehension. In cases like this, I give more legalistic advice.
If this is your first re-barrel, I don't recommend using a fired or sized or new factory round to set headspace. I highly recommend using the appropriate go/no-go gauges. At the minimum, I recommend using a go gauge. It can be done with brass and has been done many times by home builders. But these home builders may have been shown how to do it by a more experienced person or they simply learned after years of experience.
My biggest concern is setting headspace too tight or under spec. Sure, it may work at first, but if you're loading to the high end of spec, you've just reduced your error window for the specified cartridge and if you made an error in your powder charge, you've just increased your chances of a catastrophic event (over-pressure). I'm not worried as much with long headspace because the type of failure (case-head separation) associated with long headspace is more of a nuisance than it is a safety concern.
When you build your first rifle or re-barrel one the first time, it's a nerve-racking experience, at least if you're like me it is. I over think things way too much, which is a good thing from a quality and safety perspective.
Most quality factory ammo, in my experience, is made to be about 0.002" short of SAAMI chamber headspace. I say quality factory ammo because all I've ever really chambered are rifles in .308/7.62 NATO which provides way too many ammo options. There's the good quality match stuff, the good quality hunting stuff, good quality US-made NATO ball ammo and then there's the third-world cheap surplus ammo made in India and Turkey and former soviet bloc countries. From this approach, I chamber customer rifles in the middle or long end of spec to accept questionable ammo from unknown suppliers.
But since you're chambering in 22-250, you don't have the added complication of unquestionable ammo. Most likely the factory ammo you get will be made in the USA and made with safe and consistent powder charges.
IF YOU ABSOLUTELY STILL WANT TO DO THIS WITH AN UNFIRED FACTORY ROUND...(I still recommend headspace gauges) and want to give yourself some wiggle room of maybe 0.002", you can screw the barrel on until it bottoms out on the case, then back it off 0.002". How do you know when you've back it off 0.002"? Well, the barrel thread pitch is 20 threads per inch, which means that one full turn of the barrel is 0.050". That means that for every degree of rotation, the barrel backs off 0.00014". So 10˚ of rotation would open up your headspace 0.0014" and 20˚ would open up your headspace 0.0028".
If you're wondering how to discern degrees without an angle finder, just think of it in clock positions Every clock position is 30˚ (1 o'clock=30˚, 2 o'clock=60˚, 3 o'clock= 90˚ etc...). So if you want to back off your barrel 15˚ (which would open up the headspace 0.002") then you can:
-Remove the extractor and ejector from the bolt face
-Insert the factory round
-Screw the barrel in until it contacts the factory round
-Make a witness mark using a sharpie at top dead center on the recoil lug or a slightly snug barrel nut and the barrel
-Then you can use a sharpie and make clock marks at the 9, 10 and 11 o'clock positions on the recoil lug or barrel nut. That will give you a visual reference as to how many degrees you're turning the barrel.
-To back off the barrel 15˚, you can loosen the barrel until the barrel witness mark is set to the 11:30 position in relation to top dead center and tighten the barrel nut. You've now set your headspace to 0.002" longer than a factory round which should give you some wiggle room.
But there is one other approach that can buy you some wiggle room. A piece of clear scotch tape (used to wrap gifts) is about 0.002" thick. Remove the extractor and ejector from the bolt face. Cut a round piece of scotch tape and place it over the bolt face or the factory round you want to use to headspace the barrel with. Make sure it's flat with no wrinkles. Insert round, screw on barrel until it bottoms out on the factory round ad snug the barrel nut. Remove the round and remove the tape and you should be set.
Clear as mud?
Tony.
Good write up Tony. The OP is long gone but did the right thing and opted for gauges...which he should have done given his newness to the whole process.
First I did mis-state the OP question.
Secondly there is a whole range of views on proper. I believe you can but I should not use the OP to justify that.
Also, this is a forum with opinions, not a company that has legal liability.
If there is one thing that irritates me has been the world ends if you set headspace wrong, the reloading books play that up as well.
When you cry wolf and put out false information (or more accurately a lie) you then weaken your standing when it comes to other areas that can be a serious risk.
If you understand head space then you can indeed properly set it. Properly being it fires.
I won't disagree that someone new probably should get at leas the no go gauge.
But as also was stated and should be repeated, fire forming is SOP and has been done innumerable times. Talk about a violation of headspace criteria.
The reality is that you simply create a unique case if your headspace is long (and it will fire)
What needs to be emphasizes, is the follow up to all that not the bugaboo on head space, that is the MINIMUM BUMP BACK.
Otherwise you create the far worse situation and that is a case head separation that can created the catastrophic gas escape and even more so in non supported firearms.
We make a big deal about over pressure. Standard proof test is 150%. No big deal.
Proof test with a case separation?
Where would that be an issue. Reloads with weakened case heads from being set back to far.
Frankly if there is an area of maximum risk in the shooting arena its rifles with unsupported cartridge heads that allow gas path escape in a major burst into he action aided and embedded (intended) by case head separation.
Ok, off the soap box.