308 full length sizing issue

I'm still fairly new to reloading 308 and I've run into an issue with my die. I'm getting massive dents in the cases at the start of the shoulder as well as some denting on the shoulder such as what you get by necking down cases to a smaller bullet. I get the latter whole necking down 30-06 brass to 6.5-06 before hydro forming to 260 Dingo specs. What could be some issues I'm running into? This is NOT AR used brass. It's PPU that I received from a Canadian PRS shooter who's ammo was confiscated at the border due to a screw up on his paperwork. It was once fired in his gun, and was deprimed, sized, then wet tumbled with SS media for 3 hours to ensure completely clean brass. I'm assuming it's because it's cheap PPU. I've reloaded their 38 Special cases before and I know how quickly they lose primer pocket strength.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...783ec30f44.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...439ea3c43f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...466294274e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...560bb967a1.jpg

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See below... likely #2

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...ding-mistakes/

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Originally Posted by Phranque

See below... likely #2

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...ding-mistakes/

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Not a lube issue. I'm using Royal Purple synthetic just like I have for the last 10 years with no issues in .223, .458 SOCOM, 300WM, and 416 Barrett. I'll mention I'm using Redding 84155 307/308 dies. Got away from Lee and I'll never go back.

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If it's not a lube issue another possible cause is the case is work hardened and won't yield evenly to the sizing pressures.

The only time I've seen dents like that were when re-forming from a different caliber (ie: 6.5 Creedmoor from .308 Win).

Try annealing the case neck/shoulder then size. Could be a combination of "his chamber size versus die size" combined with relatively inelastic brass due to normal work hardening.

If you don't own an annealing machine, just do it the way we always did before them. A socket on an adapter so it can be turned in a cordless drill/screwdriver, a Propane Torch, and a good sense of rhythm. Stop just before the brass starts to glow. For me that amounts to 4-6 seconds with the neck/shoulder junction right at the point of the "inner blue flame" and I watch both for a nice blue line on the case wall just below the shoulder and NO glow in the neck. Some recommend doing this in a dark room so the glow becomes more visible than it would if you're in a well lit area. Definitely stop if you see a color change in the flame that indicates you are burning copper. Flame will turn bluish green.

If you already anneal, the above may just be of use to others reading this who haven't annealed yet. :p

I don't anneal yet. Then again, this is literally the first sizing after the factory load. I wouldn't think it's been hardened to much. I'll try it and see if it changes. Now where'd I leave the torch....

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

I don't anneal yet. Then again, this is literally the first sizing after the factory load. I wouldn't think it's been hardened to much. I'll try it and see if it changes. Now where'd I leave the torch....

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You might be amazed at how hard some "factory" brass can be. It is going to depend on how many times during the "drawing" process for the case it's annealed. From the small pellet of brass that a case starts out, it's drawn through dies with mandrels and some factories may feel an extra annealing step is OK to skip in order to make a price point. Let's remember that the military purchasers of ammo around the world could care less about reloading. To them it's a single use item and the only brass they collect is from training areas, primarily because it tends to pile up. Battlefields? Not on your life.

On the other hand brass sold through retail markets is annealed regularly in the process as it's expected to be reloaded multiple times. Some companies (Lapua for example) pride themselves on the reputation for multiple reloadings that exceed that of competitors in most cases.


Can't find your torch? Just borrow one from a family member or friend. They won't miss it for a couple of years :p

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

You might be amazed at how hard some "factory" brass can be. It is going to depend on how many times during the "drawing" process for the case it's annealed. From the small pellet of brass that a case starts out, it's drawn through dies with mandrels and some factories may feel an extra annealing step is OK to skip in order to make a price point. Let's remember that the military purchasers of ammo around the world could care less about reloading. To them it's a single use item and the only brass they collect is from training areas, primarily because it tends to pile up. Battlefields? Not on your life.

On the other hand brass sold through retail markets is annealed regularly in the process as it's expected to be reloaded multiple times. Some companies (Lapua for example) pride themselves on the reputation for multiple reloadings that exceed that of competitors in most cases.


Can't find your torch? Just borrow one from a family member or friend. They won't miss it for a couple of years :p

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Yea....don't forget the lead melting pot. Still don't know where the hell mine got off to...

And this isn't milspec brass. It was match ammo from PPU. I'm amazed the ones I've loaded 3 times haven't lost primer pocket strength like the pistol brass. Is it worth buying Lapua? Starline just started a run of 308 and it's getting great reviews. Thicker brass, so it's gonna last longer but have to watch the pressures.

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

Yea....don't forget the lead melting pot. Still don't know where the hell mine got off to...

And this isn't milspec brass. It was match ammo from PPU. I'm amazed the ones I've loaded 3 times haven't lost primer pocket strength like the pistol brass. Is it worth buying Lapua? Starline just started a run of 308 and it's getting great reviews. Thicker brass, so it's gonna last longer but have to watch the pressures.

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Personally I like Lapua. It's kind of like an old saying I read once. "It's not how much you pay, it's how often you pay it". I have Lapua brass I've been shooting for a dozen years and have totally lost track of how many times I've reloaded it. When I clean it (SS Pins, Dawn, Lemishine, water) I then check primer pockets with a Go/No-Go gauge. From my original batch I think I've tossed 5-6 due to loose primer pockets. After all that shooting the cost per case has gone down considerably. Most of my Winchester Brass I've purchased over the years is now in someone else's brass as I've tossed it after as few as 4 reloadings due to loose primer pockets.

Back to the PPU brass, is it the same brass type as 7.62X51 NATO with the thicker walls at the base of the case? PPU was, pretty much until very recently, essentially a military run production facility. All standards were controlled by their military and again, with not much thought about reloading I'm pretty sure.

In closing, I'm not aware of any standard for "Match or Match Grade". Is it inspected for uniform case wall thickness? Neck runout and thickness variations? Capacity? My guess is that at the most it's sorted by weight with the assumption that means equal volume. For serious hand loaders a lot more prep than that goes into creating their "Match" ammo. Yes, they start with top shelf brass but then they go to work, the amount of which is governed by the degree of OCD they suffer from.:p

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

Personally I like Lapua. It's kind of like an old saying I read once. "It's not how much you pay, it's how often you pay it". I have Lapua brass I've been shooting for a dozen years and have totally lost track of how many times I've reloaded it. When I clean it (SS Pins, Dawn, Lemishine, water) I then check primer pockets with a Go/No-Go gauge. From my original batch I think I've tossed 5-6 due to loose primer pockets. After all that shooting the cost per case has gone down considerably. Most of my Winchester Brass I've purchased over the years is now in someone else's brass as I've tossed it after as few as 4 reloadings due to loose primer pockets.

Back to the PPU brass, is it the same brass type as 7.62X51 NATO with the thicker walls at the base of the case? PPU was, pretty much until very recently, essentially a military run production facility. All standards were controlled by their military and again, with not much thought about reloading I'm pretty sure.

In closing, I'm not aware of any standard for "Match or Match Grade". Is it inspected for uniform case wall thickness? Neck runout and thickness variations? Capacity? My guess is that at the most it's sorted by weight with the assumption that means equal volume. For serious hand loaders a lot more prep than that goes into creating their "Match" ammo. Yes, they start with top shelf brass but then they go to work, the amount of which is governed by the degree of OCD they suffer from.:p

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I'm anal, a perfectionist, and OCD. Yes, I'm the idiot that checks rim thickness on rimfire bullets. And you'd be amazed at how much more accurate your rimfires could be...

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Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing the lube is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing it is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)

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I posted the die set above I think. I'm currently in the hospital visiting my grandmother and checking on her knee replacement. She's doing well, I know you guys would ask. I hadn't checked if the vent hole is blocked, then again, this only happens on a few cases. I know the Lee dies I have GUSH oil when I'm in a groove doing .223 and 416 Barrett.

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Clean the die and check the vent hole, I had the same thing happen because the dies lock ring covered the vent hole.

It doesn't matter if it is a oil or thicker type lube when full length resizing the lube is forced upward and then compressed and causes dents.

So again check for a vent hole, one of the new dies I just bought didn't even have a vent hole.

What make die are you using and if its a small base die. (I gots to know)

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That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.

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I'm an anal little prick, so I know my dies are clean. And it won't be the die interior considering it's a Redding set. I'll check the vent hole. I have it set per Lee's setup seeing as the Redding directions were a bit vague. Raise ram, insert until it touches, lower ram, 1/3 to 1/4 turn to overcam the ram, tighten lock ring. I didn't see if the lock ring covered the vent hole.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deadshot2

That was my first thought but at second glance the majority of the dent is on the side of the case and extends a little into the shoulder. If this was a lube dent there would be a huge glob of lube remaining on the case and subsequent sized cases would have dents of decreasing size as the excess lube transfers from die to case.

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He is using synthetic motor oil for his case lube and its not going to stay in one place. His next problem will be a blown head gasket and smoke coming out of his tail pipe.

Normally real thicker case lube collects in the shoulder area of the die and causes shoulder dents. His problem is the "motor oil" is running back down hill in the die and a new oiled case is then pushed back into the die on top of the old oil in the die.

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

I know the Lee dies I have GUSH oil when I'm in a groove doing .223 and 416 Barrett.

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I still want to know if he is using a small base die without a vent hole or blocked vent hole.

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

He is using synthetic motor oil for his case lube and its not going to stay in one place. His next problem will be a blown head gasket and smoke coming out of his tail pipe.

Normally real thicker case lube collects in the shoulder area of the die and causes shoulder dents. His problem is the "motor oil" is running back down hill in the die and a new oiled case is then pushed back into the die on top of the old oil in the die.

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Again, not a lube issue. I lube one case, then run half a dozen. I've used this same method for 10 years with no issue on my other bottleneck cases. Only started with 308.

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Ok, just got to check my full length die. No vent hole. Die set is #84155.

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

Again, not a lube issue. I lube one case, then run half a dozen. I've used this same method for 10 years with no issue on my other bottleneck cases. Only started with 308.

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

Ok, just got to check my full length die. No vent hole. Die set is #84155.

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Guess what, you now have a lube problem, if the lube isn't squirting out the top of your Redding die where does it end up?

Clean the die and use some Imperial or Hornady Unique lube and see what happens.

Don't ask me how I know about your problem but I just got a new .308 Savage Hog Hunter and a set of Redding dies.

The problem was worse with my RCBS small base dies with the lock ring covering the vent hole.


Never say never, it will bite you in the ass every time.

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Guess what, you now have a lube problem, if the lube isn't squirting out the top of your Redding die where does it end up?

Clean the die and use some Imperial or Hornady Unique lube and see what happens.

Don't ask me how I know about your problem but I just got a new .308 Savage Hog Hunter and a set of Redding dies.

The problem was worse with my RCBS small base dies with the lock ring covering the vent hole.



Never say never, it will bite you in the ass every time.

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I never said never though...(joke, cause some people can't grasp jokes)

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Is there anything else I can use? I don't have any of the stuff you listed and the locals don't carry it. If I order online, I'll be looking at close to a month in shipping.

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

Is there anything else I can use? I don't have any of the stuff you listed and the locals don't carry it. If I order online, I'll be looking at close to a month in shipping.

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Homemade Firearm Cleaners & Lubricants
Case Sizing Lubricants
http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Sizing

If you don't feel like making your own

RCBS Case Slick Spray Lube 4 oz Pump
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/16...lube-4-oz-pump

Hornady Unique Case Lube 4 oz Tub
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...-lube-4-oz-tub

If you live on the farm you can use Bag Balm it contains lanolin and will help keep your hands udderly soft.

https://www.cvs.com/bizcontent/merch...9819300017.jpg

And be very careful and do not put Royal Purple engine oil and Remington 7 1/2 primers in the cattle feed.

http://i.imgur.com/eHM6WZi.jpg

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Originally Posted by trentcwwilson

(joke, cause some people can't grasp jokes)

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https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...hingSmiley.gif

The vent hole on the die could be right under the lock ring thus why you can't see it.

Hornady one-shot brass sizing spray is the very best. Stand cases up and spray from all 4 corners. Let sit for a few minutes, then size. I've tried all types of sizing lubes and waxes, and the Hornady One-Shot sizing spray is the best. Brass sizes like a hot knife through butter.

While I also believe its a lube issue, I am puzzled on the remarks about PPU

I run a fair amount of it in 308 and 30-06 (no pistol). Never a loose primer pocket. All has 6 to 10 cycles on it.

Its been solid, its also annealed (as is all factory ammo) many polish it off. My PPU like the Lapua is not polished off.

One firing is not going to cause an issue with any brass.

I have run a number of brass mfgs. FC is nice one shot stuff, its way soft and is throw away after 5 rounds at best.

Hornady is thin and does not stand up. RP, PPU and Lapua are my go to. PPU seems a bit harder per Lapua. All 3 are very close to the same weight. FC is always the heaviest.

PPU looks to me a good price, will see how it does long term compared to the Lapua. I got the RP once fired either direct collect or internet. It holds up and is sort of my baseline for assessing others.

I picked up some Herter' once fire, very poor quality primer pockets. That's also throw away as its not worth the fuss trying to punch primers out and seat them.

I agree with RC20 I have PPU brass in .303 British and 30-06, and the .303 British brass is the best modern made brass you can get for a Enfield rifle.

Below are two .303 British cases fired in the same Enfield rifle, the PPU case on the left has a larger base diameter, is .010 thicker in the base and has thicker rims. The HXP case on the right has a smaller base diameter, is thinner in the base and a thinner rim.

http://i.imgur.com/eM3H3ls.jpg

Bottom line the Prvi Partizan PPU cases are made heavy duty like military Lake City brass and built Ford Truck Tough.

I will second on the rcbs spray lube. I used this stuff when I had my 50BMG and never had issues resizing with this stuff. Never see it on the local shelves so I order 5 bottles when I order online.

I've checked under the lock ring, no vent hole. And I'm not hating on PPU. The primer issue was in the pistol(38 & 357) cases. No issues with the 308 brass yet. And if it's built Ford tough, point me to the good Chevy brass. As to the dies, I've emailed Redding about it to see if it missed a step in the manufacturing process. I might even go ahead and put one in it anyways. I've got the tooling to do it.

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Sound advice. It happened to me.

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Originally Posted by ncwg2boatguy

Sound advice. It happened to me.

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Turned out to be me. Got lube on the neck. Redding advised me to only lube the neck and body. I also polished the expander area and that helped with the occasional stiff case. Due to their response (call, not an email), I'll be updating ALL my reloading equipment (minus the Dillon presses and Harrell powder throw) to Redding products. I also got lucky enough to get some once fired Nosler Custom brass from a guy that didn't know what it was. After depriming and SS wet tumble, they all weighed within .2 grains of each other. That's not bad for 24 pieces of brass.

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Originally Posted by Trenton91

I've checked under the lock ring, no vent hole. And I'm not hating on PPU. The primer issue was in the pistol(38 & 357) cases. No issues with the 308 brass yet. And if it's built Ford tough, point me to the good Chevy brass. As to the dies, I've emailed Redding about it to see if it missed a step in the manufacturing process. I might even go ahead and put one in it anyways. I've got the tooling to do it.

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I like 3 types of brass a lot.

Lapua of course is first class.

PPU as stated

I like RP a lot, its a bit softer and easier to work with but not FC soft.

I have a lot of RP, a middle amount of PPU and Lapua (only on sale though!)

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Originally Posted by RC20

I like 3 types of brass a lot.

Lapua of course is first class.

PPU as stated

I like RP a lot, its a bit softer and easier to work with but not FC soft.

I have a lot of RP, a middle amount of PPU and Lapua (only on sale though!)

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Can't bring myself to buy Lapua. When my 6mmBR is finished.

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If you turned the die in an addtional 1/4 to 1/3 turn how much are you bumping the shoulder? I just put a new Redding die into service and I screwed it in to touch the shell holder then backed it out one full turn. Then I slowly screwed the die in until I got a measured .0015 to .002 shoulder bump measured with a RCBS precision mic. Thats pretty much what the instructions from Redding said. This is with a Redding Boss press, Redding shell holder, and Redding die. I cleaned the die well and I could feel the roughness for at least the first 150 rounds even with well waxed cases, then it disappeared and is smooth as silk.

The directions weren't so clear, so I went to the fallback plan. Lee directions. Insert shellholder, raise ram, screw die in until it touches, lower ram, screw in additional 1/4 - 1/3 and raise ram to overcam. Screw down the locking ring, begin sizing. Redding said it's perfectly fine. It resizes the brass back to acceptable handloading specs per SAAMI.

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You will also get case separation in about 8 rounds.

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Originally Posted by RC20

You will also get case separation in about 8 rounds.

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I'm on 12 and haven't had one separate yet. I've got 3 more loadings and 1 more annealing before I toss them. Mind you, this is not my competition brass. Bonus? I finally got the rifle to shoot well at 300 yards.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2823f17980.jpg

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First I am surprised at lack of separation and secondly if I was shooting that good regularly I would be dancing in the streets (very nice).

I am getting 4 shot groups of that class regularly but always a 5th in there someplace I get off and opens up to 1/2 or 5/8.

Progress but slow.

While I don't have a long enough term use on the PPU (rifle) for absolute, it is acting more and more like a poor mans Lapua and your results seem to confirm that.

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Originally Posted by RC20

First I am surprised at lack of separation and secondly if I was shooting that good regularly I would be dancing in the streets (very nice).

I am getting 4 shot groups of that class regularly but always a 5th in there someplace I get off and opens up to 1/2 or 5/8.

Progress but slow.

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Dancing? I was singing. It took me over 5 boxes of 175 SMKs and almost a full box of the 185 OTM Bergers to get to this point. She loves the 185s over 44.6 (max) of Varget at 2.800". I had finally figured out the velocity/barrel harmonics change with our brake and found that with the scope sighted at 100 yards with the 175 SMKs, the 185s shot on the first drop on the Vortex BDC on 16x(max). Since I've added this brake, I've enjoyed the way the gun shoots. Not to stretch it to 500 and beyond.....and to figure out how to afford the Bergers....

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