RCBS Competition vs Lee sizing dies

I'm looking for input from reloaders who have used both dies at one time or another. I use a Redding T-7 press and a couple of months ago I acquired a Savage 10 FCP-SR 20" (.308). I've used Lee dies for a long time and have always been happy with them so that's what I've been using for this rifle during load workup. I set the shoulder back .002 and the Lee sizer gives me that plus or minus .0005 every time. The seater die gives me plus or minus .001 to .003 ogive to base. Now that I've pretty much determined the optimum load I'm getting ready to start playing around with the seating depth in small increments but I've just ordered a set of RCBS competition dies based on a demonstration, a few people I've talked to who use them and my need for a second set of dies.

The reason for a second set of dies is because I'm in the process of acquiring a new SA M1A Loaded which has National Match Barrel, sights etc. I definitely going to use the RCBS Comp seating die for the Savage but my question is whether I should also start using the RCBS sizing die on the Savage or just continue using the Lee sizer since I'm having good results with it and it's adjusted exactly where I want it. Would the RCBS sizing die offer any real advantage over the Lee for the bolt gun? Adding to my indecision is the fact that the M1A is a semi-auto and many people recommend the use of small base dies when loading for it. I plan on using mostly .308 commercial cases but I'll also be using some 7.62x51 NATO cases. Does anybody know whether the RCBS and Lee sizer both size the case to the same spec or whether the RCBS Competition sizer might size slightly smaller therefore making it preferable for the M1A?

I'm hopeful that somebody will be able to shed some light on this for me. As of now I'm leaning toward using the LEE sizer and RCBS seater for the Savage and vice versa for the M1A.

Thanks in advance for your input.

BTW, I'm also posing this question on the M14 forum.

If you really want to load precision ammo i would use neither

Get you a forsters full length sizing die and micro seater and you will have the.the best you can get without going custom

I agree the Forster dies are unarguably the best but they're way above my means plus with my shooting being done entirely at 100 yards it's a case of overkill. I just want to do the best with what I have or can afford.

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Originally Posted by tcoz

I agree the Forster dies are unarguably the best but they're way above my means plus with my shooting being done entirely at 100 yards it's a case of overkill. I just want to do the best with what I have or can afford.

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Forsters are cheaper than the rcbs competition

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/45...308-winchester

I was comparing micrometer dies to micrometer dies. I'll likely be using a number of different bullets and have found the micrometer seating dies to be much easier and faster for this. The thought never occurred to me to use the standard (non-mic) die.

Do you feel that I would derive enough benefit from the Forster dies (don't forget, only 100 yds) to balance the lack of micrometer seating? Do you consider Forster seating dies to be the best because they produce ammo with almost no runout? Any reason why Forster sizing dies are better than any others?
BTW, I'm f/l sizing for my Savage bolt gun. IMO, the advantages to neck sizing are not having to lube and case life which is less of an issue when only bumping the shoulder .002.

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Originally Posted by tcoz

I was comparing micrometer dies to micrometer dies. I'll likely be using a number of different bullets and have found the micrometer seating dies to be much easier and faster for this. The thought never occurred to me to use the standard (non-mic) die.

Do you feel that I would derive enough benefit from the Forster dies (don't forget, only 100 yds) to balance the lack of micrometer seating? Do you consider Forster seating dies to be the best because they produce ammo with almost no runout? Any reason why Forster sizing dies are better than any others?
BTW, I'm f/l sizing for my Savage bolt gun. IMO, the advantages to neck sizing are not having to lube and case life which is less of an issue when only bumping the shoulder .002.

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I am not a proponent of neck sizing. I have done it and seen no real benefits and a host of problems.

Well i have both micro and regular. The micros look cool and adjustments are easy to dial in. But the benchrest seater is very easy to dial in too just different. I find that with most rifles i find my bullet, powder charge and seating depth pretty quickly. Then i am through adjusting the die.

Yes there is a difference that makes them better. The location of the expander ball in the sizing die is one of.the secrets to low runout. On the seating die it is the floating sleeve that helps align the bullet and the case. Just overall quality would be enough.

You can read about them and decide for yourself

Sounds like you are on the path to become a precision shooter. Best to start to collect.quality equipment that you can grow with. Those dies will last.a lifetime. I believe.each rifle.should.have.its.own set of.dies. when i get.my sizing.die.set i put.a.lock ring.on it.and.don't mess with it.again.

You have.a lot.to learn. It is.a great journey. Good.luck.

Thanks for your help sir. Your comments about being on the path to becoming a precision shooter and the dies lasting a lifetime made me laugh. Hopefully that path won't be toooo long. I'm 66 years old. :smug:

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Originally Posted by m12lrs

I am not a proponent of neck sizing. I have done it and seen no real benefits and a host of problems.

Well i have both micro and regular. The micros look cool and adjustments are easy to dial in. But the benchrest seater is very easy to dial in too just different. I find that with most rifles i find my bullet, powder charge and seating depth pretty quickly. Then i am through adjusting the die.

Yes there is a difference that makes them better. The location of the expander ball in the sizing die is one of.the secrets to low runout. On the seating die it is the floating sleeve that helps align the bullet and the case. Just overall quality would be enough.

You can read about them and decide for yourself

Sounds like you are on the path to become a precision shooter. Best to start to collect.quality equipment that you can grow with. Those dies will last.a lifetime. I believe.each rifle.should.have.its.own set of.dies. when i get.my sizing.die.set i put.a.lock ring.on it.and.don't mess with it.again.

You have.a lot.to learn. It is.a great journey. Good.luck.

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Originally Posted by tcoz

Thanks for your help sir. Your comments about being on the path to becoming a precision shooter and the dies lasting a lifetime made me laugh. Hopefully that path won't be toooo long. I'm 66 years old. :smug:

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Yeah

Bet you did. I am 62.

Wish them young ones would listen but they just have to learn the hard way. Then i think about my youth and realize i should have.listened too?

You can follow my plan and pass it down to the grandkids. Get them interested where our sport.will continue on.

The Forster competition sizing die is probably the best single thing I have done for ammo consistency other than buying quality brass. I have not found much difference in the seating dies. Most do pretty well but I have never had any problems with standard, rcbs seating dies. As said the micrometer is cool, but not really necessary. I have heard of people polishing the inside of the seater stem with steel wool because it was marking bullets though I have never seen it myself.

I have never been a fan of Lee anything, but that is a personal issue and plenty use it.

Me and Bubba started out with this about 50 years ago

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/735...308-winchester

FWIW, I am a fairly new reloader and have tried a bunch of dies -- Redding, Lee, Forster, RCBS, Wilson (so much for buy once/cry once). . . Runout has been the least with a Forster micrometer seating die and with a Wilson/arbor press set up. If I had to go to next on the list, I'd go Redding.

I too am limited to 100 yards, but I'm chasing that one-hole group so accuracy/repeatability is important. I am on the fence about neck-sizing. I have/am trying it, but so far it appears as likely as not to introduce a new set of variables rather than eliminate them. Perhaps there is an advantage on case neck life? But annealing can help there too.

Unless you are reloading for a variety of rifles in the same caliber, I am not sure that the micrometer feature is useful. You are going to have to measure the completed rounds anyway . . .you can do this as easily without the index markings on the microseater as anything else. Of more importance to me is seating the bullets in a consistent way, pushing on the bullets' ogive. BTW, have you measured the runout you are currently getting? If your setup produces runout of +/- 1, I don't think a fancier die is necessarily going to improve it.

Good luck -- let us know what you choose and how it works.

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Originally Posted by m12lrs

Me and Bubba started out with this about 50 years ago

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/735...308-winchester

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Every once in a while I'll read a forum post from someone who thinks he might like to start reloading but isn't sure so they invariably ask about starting out with the Lee Loader. So far though, I've never heard anybody say that they actually went through with that plan. An acceptable bare bones single stage press can be had so inexensively that the only use I see for the Lee Loader is to throw in your Go Bag in the event of a Doomsday type of event.

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Originally Posted by flangster

FWIW, I am a fairly new reloader and have tried a bunch of dies -- Redding, Lee, Forster, RCBS, Wilson (so much for buy once/cry once). . . Runout has been the least with a Forster micrometer seating die and with a Wilson/arbor press set up. If I had to go to next on the list, I'd go Redding.

I too am limited to 100 yards, but I'm chasing that one-hole group so accuracy/repeatability is important. I am on the fence about neck-sizing. I have/am trying it, but so far it appears as likely as not to introduce a new set of variables rather than eliminate them. Perhaps there is an advantage on case neck life? But annealing can help there too.

Unless you are reloading for a variety of rifles in the same caliber, I am not sure that the micrometer feature is useful. You are going to have to measure the completed rounds anyway . . .you can do this as easily without the index markings on the microseater as anything else. Of more importance to me is seating the bullets in a consistent way, pushing on the bullets' ogive. BTW, have you measured the runout you are currently getting? If your setup produces runout of +/- 1, I don't think a fancier die is necessarily going to improve it.

Good luck -- let us know what you choose and how it works.

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I started out neck sizing and then went back to f/l sizing after realizing there were no accuracy gains to be realized from it. My feeling is that it's fine for someone who's alternative is "full" full length sizing but sizing and bumping the shoulder back a couple thousandths each time gives more consistency and doesn't adversely affect case life. Lubricating cases has never been a big deal to me (I use Imperial wax).

Since I already had the RCBS dies on order, I'm going to try them and see. If I'm not satisfied with the results I'll return them to Amazon or keep them to use for the M1A that I just committed to buying. They arrived this afternoon so I'll set them up tonight and try them out tomorrow. I'll report back.

^ I hear this a lot ^. But I don't understand why bumping the shoulder back is more consistent than a fire formed case that fits my chamber perfectly???

I need enlightenment please???

Well, the case is fire formed, but the chamber isn't perfectly symmetrical, or so the theory goes, so it is a perfect fit, but only if the cartridge has the same orientation.

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

^ I hear this a lot ^. But I don't understand why bumping the shoulder back is more consistent than a fire formed case that fits my chamber perfectly???

I need enlightenment please???

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i always wondered about that too and have asked the question on another forum that I frequent. I was told that it's just a very very slight safety margin to ensure the rounds can be chambered rather than having the exact same dimensions as the "tube" that they're being jammed into.
I think it's more easily understood in a semi auto since chambering a round is a much more violent action than just manually sliding the round in as in a bolt gun.
Still doesn't really explain it but my wife always tells me that I just have to accept some things as being true without always asking for an explanation.

This Forum is for Savage bolt rifles. I don't do semi autos.

I always make sure a case will chamber before I start the reloading process.

If someone thinks My chamber is not symmetrical, why should I assume that My dies are any better???

Fireforming is a perfect fit, and bumping induces slop. JMO :-))

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. I think it should go without saying that if something is working, and meeting your needs, there is no need to change it. I am still feeling my way with this stuff...

If you reload for a "gas gun", full length resize and don't look back. The first time you end up with a slam fire because the brass won't chamber,will be your last time!!
You CAN neck size but you'll gain nothing. At least you can say "been there, done that".
IMHO, RCBS Compitition Seater Dies are THE BEST. The side window keeps you from crushing your fingers while trying to hold the bullet it place as they seat in the neck. I have converted a BUNCH of Comp seaters by swapping guts to get them to the caliber I'am after.
As far as reloading for the M1A? I've run maybe 5000 rounds of my reloads thru mine with NO PROBLEMS. One of the better battle rifles ever made.
I started out with Lee dies but wore them out as well as a Lee press by sizing machine gun fired/primer crimped 7.62/.308 brass. Won't use them again. Much better dies out there to work with.

Although I don't own any, I can see the necessity to FL and shoulder bump cases for gas guns.

Quality tools and equipment are always a plus if the user feels he can justify the extra cost.

I reload for a lot of different chamberings, and LEE suits my needs well, keeping the cost down.

If I were to concentrate on one rifle for competition, I would probably find need of more expensive competition dies.

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

Although I don't own any, I can see the necessity to FL and shoulder bump cases for gas guns.

Quality tools and equipment are always a plus if the user feels he can justify the extra cost.

I reload for a lot of different chamberings, and LEE suits my needs well, keeping the cost down.

If I were to concentrate on one rifle for competition, I would probably find need of more expensive competition dies.

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Different.strokes.for.different.folks

Whatever works for you

Even the top competition guys do things differently

I am of "the less you mess with it..." school of thought, and when I began hand loading for 223 I bought the Lee Ultimate 4 die set. Didn't take long before I was neck sizing only. Brass wasn't growing, no problem chambering, so why not? The Lee was giving me less than .001 run out on the necks, and the seater die was .003 or less in OAL. What's not to like about that?

Then I bought a 22-250 and got the same Lee Ultimate dies for it. Initial accuracy and consistency was terrific, then began falling off. Wanting to shoot heavier bullets, I bought an 8 twist X-caiber barrel and some new Lapua brass. Again, initial accuracy was great, but then began falling off and that had me searching for answers, so it was back to the forums....

That's when I went to the tool box and dusted off the dial indicator, and then the real education began. The Lee 22-250 dies were producing a bunch of run-out, and the seater die was not even holding within .005 in depth. I could see that some new dies were in my future.

I got an RCBS competition FL sizing die off this forum, and started over with new Lapua brass. Neck run out is .001 or less and it's shooting much better now, but I plan to get the Micrometer seating die anyway to tune my seating depth.

I recently built a 6mm BR and decided to start with the RCBS competition die set, and I have to say that it's a real confidence builder to know your hand loads are the best they can be with regard to run out and seating depth. The RCBS is holding run out and depth to .001 or under.

I will stick with the Lee neck sizer for my 223, but I'll be getting a micrometer style seating die for it too. I have seen the light.....

As the OP, I said I would report back today after setting up the RCBS Competition sizing and mic seating dies and trying them out. I won't be shooting any of the assembled rounds until Wednesday but what I can tell you is that so far, I'm impressed. The sizing die was easy to set up for .001 shoulder setback. The expander ball is also elevated on the decapping rod and this seems to give much better feel for some reason. Resizing NATO brass was smooth and required less effort than I expected. The mic seating die made very quick work of seating at six different test depths. Repeatability is very easy and the .001 calibration marks are spot on. I was able to dial up a new seating depth and then when I dialed it back to the original, it was perfect.
In addition, runout is right at .001. RCBS must have been making improvements to the dies as time has gone on because I haven't experienced any of the issues that others say they have.
I'm anxious to see how the ammo performs.

BTW, Amazon sells the die set for $89 which I think is a bargain.

Glad to see RCBS is stepping up their game. In today's world of CNC manufacturing machining tolerances should be easy to control

I have a dozen or so 40 year old rcbs dies that made perfectly good ammo back in the day.

I have both RCBS comp and the Forster comp and add in a Lee sedater I was given.

I like the Forster large head micrometer die, its precise and easy to set, more accurate than the RCBS but RCBS does fine.

I don't use the expander plug in the dies, as all my stuff is variation on 30 caliber, I have an Lyman M die and do the neck expander after sizing (expander are cut off or removed, some would not come off so they got cut off)

The M die feels a lot easier on the case head, I think its the way to go though another step is annoying. but its like the pistol crimp end, separate crimping step was better overall.

I have and use the RCBS, Redding, and Lee neck sizing dies. There is remarkably less runout with the Lee collet neck sizer. Seating for all is done with a Redding Competition seater. Go figure.

If you're going to start loading for a gas gun, full length resize BUT, make sure you don't push the shoulders back too far. .001 to .002 is best. Too much working the brass and you'll end up with case head separation. Sooner or later, you'll run into that. No use rushing it.
I've loaded and fired at least 5000 rounds with RCBS full length dies for my M1A without issues. The RCBS Comp seater works like a charm as well as my Rockchucker press.

I like Forster fl dies and their mic bullet seater. The seater is easy to read and very accurate. Forster can also custom hone the neck of the sizing die to eliminate the expander ball, or to just kiss the neck. I have two set up this way, a 6 Dasher and a 257AI. The folks at Forster are very accommodating and know what they are doing. It seems that everyone who starts handloading has to go through the neck sizing stage (me included) a few stay with it, but most I think full length size. Imo full length sizing with .002 shoulder set back gives the best results. If you neck size you will eventually have to full length or your cases will chamber too hard or not at all. The Lee collet die works as advertised as I used one on my .308 FTR rig for awhile, but you still have to bump the shoulder after 2 or 3 bangs and start all over. My rifle was just as accurate when I full length sized them, so that's what I did. The most important thing about a sizing die is that it's straight. They all make good ones and sometimes bad ones. Luckus

I think I can add a bit of at least information here, maybe not settle things.

I have two guns I have dialed in, one is a Shilen barrel 30-06. The other is 7.5 Swiss.

The 7.5 Swiss has a RCBS comp sizing and seating die. Its the most accurate (or the one I have found the most accurate load for)

The Shilen is a Forster sizer and bench rest micrometer seater. Its close to the 7.5 but (so far) a tenth or so bigger groups.

The Shilen with the best load is about 1/2 MOA, shade less but no more than 7/16. Even with Lapua Brass.

The 7.5 Lothar Walther is running about .250 (PPU brass() .

My take is there is no difference in good dies, its good equipment, the barrel has to be good, the load has to be good as well as the trigger puller being able to do their end.

A die might show a difference with Tubbs class shooters, but for most of us, max nix.