Smooth Nut Removal and Receiver Give

The question has come up on the smooth nut removal, this is a one off report so it could be dramatically different on another rifle.

I like to start with minimal force and or affects, so on the 116 I put it in the action vice and then used my good 18 inch pipe wrench which is the longest one I have at home.

This one came off easily. Almost effortless. No pin hole in the bottom either. I was ready to use heat as that's not a great grip ( or cut ) neither in this case was required.

The 12FV bought about a year ago took all I could do without heat. I had the nut wrench (17 inches) as well as a breaker bar at 90 degree and had to put the bottom handle in the action wrench to bear against the vice before it came loose. Very close to using heat. Probably should have.

The thing that really got my attention was putting on the barrel that I am going to test with, it would not screw in.

Cleaned the threads good, added the abhorred anti seize, crossed my mind what NSS said about the action wrench torque should be under 25 lbs on the cap screws, hmmm, put on at 20, but.

So I loosed them up and the barrel went in just fine.

That is a first and I don't know if Savage is making the receivers lighter for that line or what, but I had almost no torque on the cap screws.

Its the 116 Hunter XP if anyone has had similar experience it would be good to hear.

Not a warm fuzzy to have light set and how much squeeze that put on the receiver at the threads.

Action wrenches have a tendency to squeeze the threads and make it hard to install a barrel. THere is no need to tighten the bolts much so as to let the wrench "grab ahold of the action". Just set it so the recoil lug is set against the side of the recess in the wrench and gently snug the srews on the wrench. Also, I don't bother with the acttion wrench anymore. It does not help. I just use a barrel vise. It avoids the whole issue.

No. Savage is not making the actions lighter than before. Old or new, if the wrench is too tight and the threads are a tight fit, it's going to be tough getting the barrel to turn in the action, in or out.

Finally, when loosening the nut, there is no need for a torqure wrench. Just hit the barrel nut wrench good with a heavy hammer. Usually a good whack with a steel hammer will crack the nut loose, then you can spin the action off the barrel by hand. Same is true when using a pipe wrench on a smooth nut. You can't damage anything by smacking it too hard when all you are doing is cracking it loose. There is no such thing as "Too Much Force".

Final finally...
the barrel threads and the action threads are not all cut identical. Some barrels are tight on one action and relatively loose on another. THey are all cut within certain specs, but they don't all fit the same. I know. I have removed and reinstalled new, used and aftermarket and OEM barrels from many different companies on well over 300 Savage actions of every type the last couple years. Axis, 10, 12, 14, 16, 110, 111, 116. I haven't used an action wrench on any of the last 280, though.

What is interesting is this is the 3rd receiver I have worked with. Its the only one (very small sample) that reacted that way.

Worth noting for someone new to this.

the others were clamped to the NSS recommend 25 ft lbs on the cap screw, this one was lighter and almost none and threads were affected.


I like the action wrench as I think it works better and have not been disappointed. I think its easier overall. Easily avoided the issue and I like the hold setup better. Agreed others feel differently.

I don't use a torque wrench to loosen, breaker bar if needed. I don't like smacking the nut wrench with hammers as it beast up the nut wrench. I know it works and sometimes a sharp hit is better than slow strain, still prefer lesser force and or toque to smacking.

The OEM barrel came out ok so agreed the thread differences can be enough to cause issues. Just surprised at how little pressure.

Have you tried using a barrel vise? I highly recommend a wheeler barrel vise.

I agree other makes, such as Remington benefit from an action wrench and barrel vise, but practical experience with Savage has shown me you only really need one or the other with Savage, and the barrel vise is more simple to use, allows for "tighter grip/squeeze" ( b/c you aren't affecting the threads) and pretty much negates the need for the action wrench.

No I have not.


Originally I looked it all over and decided the Action Wrench would work better. I have not been disappointed.

I might change my mind if I was going to do a lot, the few I have done I have been delighted with the NSS setup in particular .

I thought this aspect was a good one for people new to this who go with the action wrench to know about.

The OEM barrel came out fine, the other one would not go in.

Pretty miner adjustment once I thought to try to loosen it up and could be sure it was not thread issues.

Loosening the nut is not affected by the clamp, once its loose then you can loosen the clamp if that's affecting barrel removal.

When I pulled the stock barrel off my 12FV in 22-250 i used the NSS action wrench/vice, their barrel nut wrench and 24" breaker bar. Still had to use a dead blow hammer to knock it loose. Then all the shot peen media stuck under the barrel nut caused some issues getting the nut off the barrel despite compressed air and spray lube.

I've experienced the "tight threads" on a few action / bareel combinations using the NSS action wrench and others have went together fine. I did order a barrel vise last week thinking it would help with the tight threads but was more thinking it would help with the barrel wanting to turn with the nut when getting the final tightening on it when setting headspace.

Look forward to using it for all the added benifits.

^^^yes. That, too.

I mean, IDEALLY, a person could use both, but the barrel vise is all I ever need anymore. As I recall, Fred (Sharpshooter) recommended the same thing a while ago, and I was slow to take his advice because the action wrench seemed more "proper" and I already had one... Now I know why he likes the barrel vise. Also, when using the vise, I ALWAYS wrap the barrel with electrical tape first (to protect it) and clamp it down HARD. I recommend Wheeler b/c it is sturdy and uses wood blocks.

So the upside of a barrel vice is time spent wrapping with tape and having to use massive force to clamp it down?

I'll stick with the action wrench thank you, lighten up on the cap bolts and away we go.

Again noted for someone working with the Action Wrench and what to watch for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RC20

So the upside of a barrel vice is time spent wrapping with tape and having to use massive force to clamp it down?

I'll stick with the action wrench thank you, lighten up on the cap bolts and away we go.

Again noted for someone working with the Action Wrench and what to watch for.

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THat's an asanine statement. How the heck did you get that out of what I was saying? Geez oh, pete! use whatever tools you want to use. I am only offering free advice based on a lot of experience, Jack As*

I have the action wrench, barrel nut wrench and a barrel vise.

This one. http://www.pmatool.com/barrel-vise-by-viper/

I have a switchbarrel and change barrels often. Sometimes 2 or.3 times in a day.

I take my barrel vice and barrel nut wrench to the range with me. Couple.of.C clamps and attach it to something sturdy and you can switch barrels in just a few minutes

After doing it.a lot.I find the barrel vice is the way to go. Comes in handy for all kinds of things.

And you never put stress on your action. You just unscrew it with your hand.

P.S. been a while since I pulled out my action wrench. When I looked.at it i realized another reason I went to the.barrel vice. If you have.a scope rail attached then you have.to remove it.to use the.action wrench. With the.barrel vice I even leave my scope on the action when I switch barrels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

THat's an asanine statement. How the heck did you get that out of what I was saying? Geez oh, pete! use whatever tools you want to use. I am only offering free advice based on a lot of experience, Jack As*

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Never ceases to amaze me when people post up looking for advice the proceed to tell people trying to help them they're wrong.

I can see the advantages of the barrel vise after doing several with the action wrench. I'll be using the barrel vise on my next barrel swap.

I don't wrap with electrical tape or torque down the barrel vice bolts any tighter than needed to keep the barrel from slipping. You get a feel for it.pretty quickly. Tight but not torqued down at.all. could be my barrel clamp just doesn't need to be that tight.

I do have a thin piece of leather I have used to protect the barrel but have.found from experience that my clamp does not mar a stainless barrel at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

THat's an asanine statement. How the heck did you get that out of what I was saying? Geez oh, pete! use whatever tools you want to use. I am only offering free advice based on a lot of experience, Jack As*

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First I do not know where you get the idea I was looking for advice.?

This was a clear statement about what I use and what I saw.

I think these are all learning experience and there are always new people looking in and figuring out which way they want to go.

I am certainly happy to diverge a bit and discuss the merits of the two types of tools, but for you then to get upset is pretty odd to me.

The only question in the write-up was if Savage was making receiver thinner these days and or thinner for parts of the line up.

When you say "new people" does that include YOU, because you certainly don't take advice from those who have been here for a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RC20

First I do not know where you get the idea I was looking for advice.?

This was a clear statement about what I use and what I saw.

I think these are all learning experience and there are always new people looking in and figuring out which way they want to go.

I am certainly happy to diverge a bit and discuss the merits of the two types of tools, but for you then to get upset is pretty odd to me.

The only question in the write-up was if Savage was making receiver thinner these days and or thinner for parts of the line up.

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I only got "upset" when you misconstrued what I said about the merits of a barrel vise, and also belittled me for it. I said I am able to tighten it down very hard with no ill effects like what can happen with an action wrench. I said I was offering free advise, I did not assume you were asking for any advice. It wasn't a personal slam on you or your choice of tools. Your arrogance coupled with very little practical experience whatsoever (and absolutely none with a barrel vise) is what ticked me off. But, frankly, I don't give a sht.

I'm new, and wondered about getting an action wrench, but didnt want to spend the money. So, all I use is a barrel vise, and on occassion, for a factory barrel that had been on for decades, I used a piece of oak in the action with just a little pressure at the moment of the smack with my stubby sledge... that Savage grit...

I never had the problem described with the barrel fit in the few I've seen.
But, I did have an old barrel nut that would not thread on a custom barrel. Tolerances are different for sure.

Talked with one guy who machined flats on his barrels so he could slip a wrench on the barrel and a wrench on the nut. Did a barrel swap in seconds.

From what I've read previously on this site, when using a barrel vice and action wrench there exists the possibility of damaging the action by twisting it if using an action wrench that puts torque on the back of the action, instead of the front.

One disadvantage I can see from this method when removing a stock barrel is that you not only have to overcome the the locking force imposed by some kind of thread sealant or thread mis-fit due to machining tolerances, but also the clamping force of the barrel nut that some gorilla installed while doing chin-ups on a 24 inch breaker bar.:o

I had to deal with both issues when removing the stock barrel I mentioned earlier in the thread.

But for switch barrel users, or those who install their own barrels, it's probably the easiest way to go because you KNOW the barrel fits well and how much torque is on the nut. Less tools, less time, and perhaps you don't have to remove the barreled action from the stock? Pretty handy, especially if your action is bonded to the stock.

Anyone want to post a link to their favorite action wrench to use with a barrel vice? I'm in the mood to add some new tools to my tool box.

Yep

I am working through the.switchbarrel routine. With the barrel vice i have a torque wrench and.barrel nut wrench barrel changes are a snap.

http://www.pmatool.com/barrel-vise-by-viper/

My next evolution will be to index the action, barrel nut and barrel with a line done with an engraving tool. Then locktite the barrel nut to the barrel. Then when changing barrels all you have to do is check your index line between the barrel nut and barrel to make sure nothing has moved. Then screw in the barrel til the action and barrel nut index lines line up. At this point headspace should be correct and you are good.to go.

Next step after that is.to inlet the stock where you have room for the barrel nut and barrel to unscrew long enough to get the barrel off. You use your barrel vice and a rear entry action wrench like the one below to remove.the barrel. Taking my time and working out the bugs as I go.

http://www.pmatool.com/panda-and-rem...action-wrench/

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Originally Posted by Texas10

From what I've read previously on this site, when using a barrel vice and action wrench there exists the possibility of damaging the action by twisting it if using an action wrench that puts torque on the back of the action, instead of the front.

One disadvantage I can see from this method when removing a stock barrel is that you not only have to overcome the the locking force imposed by some kind of thread sealant or thread mis-fit due to machining tolerances, but also the clamping force of the barrel nut that some gorilla installed while doing chin-ups on a 24 inch breaker bar.:o

I had to deal with both issues when removing the stock barrel I mentioned earlier in the thread.

But for switch barrel users, or those who install their own barrels, it's probably the easiest way to go because you KNOW the barrel fits well and how much torque is on the nut. Less tools, less time, and perhaps you don't have to remove the barreled action from the stock? Pretty handy, especially if your action is bonded to the stock.

Anyone want to post a link to their favorite action wrench to use with a barrel vice? I'm in the mood to add some new tools to my tool box.

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I am not sure I follow all of that, but I bought the NSS action wrench as it looked the best setup.

I have not been disappointed, it has two 1/2 clamp bolts and a screw that goes in the front action screw hole.

It also has a handle that screw in and out.

Normally I don't use the handle, but on the worst nut I did, it goes down through the vice and as it moved a bit up against the bottom of the vice providing support.

I could have laid it on a table and done the same thing but not quite as well setup for even pull. I was curious, really should have thrown heat on at that point.

I assume you can use it in conjunction with a barrel vice, thought the clamp now looks to factor in as stopping some threads from working depending on clearance.

I find it works fine by itself with 6 barrel swaps so far (more than one on two actions)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

I only got "upset" when you misconstrued what I said about the merits of a barrel vise, and also belittled me for it. I said I am able to tighten it down very hard with no ill effects like what can happen with an action wrench. I said I was offering free advise, I did not assume you were asking for any advice. It wasn't a personal slam on you or your choice of tools. Your arrogance coupled with very little practical experience whatsoever (and absolutely none with a barrel vise) is what ticked me off. But, frankly, I don't give a sht.

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Ok, maybe we can agree to disagree.

I assume you care because you have responded. I also care.

I do think you spun it out to turn it into a choice of tools and then started to change what the post was about and that is the use of an action wrench, what force is being required to remove nuts these days as well as the crush issue on the receiver with that tool. there is no perfect tool and people choose tools based on what suits them, not right or wrong.

I will point out, I grew up where we not only had to make do, my dad was a mechanic and we pretty much had a farm type existence with keeping things working.

So while I am new to the Savage work, I have been working with, around and creating solutions to equipment and machinery problems for something around 55 years. If you want to call that arrogance you are welcome to do so. I am a designated engineer (no letters) for my facility because of that experience as well as willing to stand my ground when I believe I am right (though in this case I believe its a matter of tool preference and not right or wrong)


some of this is obvious practical mechanical sense. some of this is Savage specific and I hope you will note I don't just throw out an opinion in areas that are and I have no experience with.


And no I do not have nor intend to have any experience with a barrel vice. It does not fit what works for me, obviously it does for you and others. If asked I will support the action wrench and why. To me it looks like a some and some boiling down to what suits any given person and how they work as well as how much of it they do and how much bench space they have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Texas10

From what I've read previously on this site, when using a barrel vice and action wrench there exists the possibility of damaging the action by twisting it if using an action wrench that puts torque on the back of the action, instead of the front.

One disadvantage I can see from this method when removing a stock barrel is that you not only have to overcome the the locking force imposed by some kind of thread sealant or thread mis-fit due to machining tolerances, but also the clamping force of the barrel nut that some gorilla installed while doing chin-ups on a 24 inch breaker bar.:o

I had to deal with both issues when removing the stock barrel I mentioned earlier in the thread.

But for switch barrel users, or those who install their own barrels, it's probably the easiest way to go because you KNOW the barrel fits well and how much torque is on the nut. Less tools, less time, and perhaps you don't have to remove the barreled action from the stock? Pretty handy, especially if your action is bonded to the stock.

Anyone want to post a link to their favorite action wrench to use with a barrel vice? I'm in the mood to add some new tools to my tool box.

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this is the one I have

Northland Shooters Supply (NSS) Action WrenchWhen Savage went to the 4.4″ short-action action-screw spacing, the clearances on most action wrenches became an issue. For shooters using one of the premium recoil lugs with the alignment pins, the clearance on the alignment pins became an interference issue. To correct this problem, Northland Shooters Supply has designed an action wrench called the NSS Action Wrench which corrects for these interference issues. Here are some points that are addressed with the NSS Action Wrench design:

1. Modifications to the cap portion and the main body of the action wrench to make it compatable with the new centerfeed short action Savage actions.
2. All NSS Action Wrenches are fully radiused on all working surfaces.
3. All working surfaces are micro machined to avoid coarse contact surfaces.
4. The recoil lug notch is clearanced for all brands of recoil lugs.
5. The lower portion of the NSS Action Wrench has been machined for easy and secure mounting into a bench vise with the handle removed.
6. The new NSS Action Wrench will work with all Savage Model 10, 110 – 11, 111 – 12, 112 – 14, 114 -16, 116 as well as all Rem/Age conversions on Remington model 700 rifles.
7. Most importantly, all components including the hardened bolts, hardened washers, Unbrako socket head cap screw and allen wrench are 100% “Made in the USA”.

Northland is able to offer this product at a competitive pricing of $60.00.

What kind of wood are they using in the barrel vises? Don't want to hijack the thread but saw some mention "wood blocks" in their barrel vises and wondered if it was a soft wood, pine or hardwood. I would assume a soft wood like pine would be better. I have 15 feet of 1" x 4" A50 plate, 3/4" threaded rod and a mag drill so whipping up a barrel vise in the shop would be easy.

^^^oak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Texas10

From what I've read previously on this site, when using a barrel vice and action wrench there exists the possibility of damaging the action by twisting it if using an action wrench that puts torque on the back of the action, instead of the front.

One disadvantage I can see from this method when removing a stock barrel is that you not only have to overcome the the locking force imposed by some kind of thread sealant or thread mis-fit due to machining tolerances, but also the clamping force of the barrel nut that some gorilla installed while doing chin-ups on a 24 inch breaker bar.:o

I had to deal with both issues when removing the stock barrel I mentioned earlier in the thread.

But for switch barrel users, or those who install their own barrels, it's probably the easiest way to go because you KNOW the barrel fits well and how much torque is on the nut. Less tools, less time, and perhaps you don't have to remove the barreled action from the stock? Pretty handy, especially if your action is bonded to the stock.

Anyone want to post a link to their favorite action wrench to use with a barrel vice? I'm in the mood to add some new tools to my tool box.

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THere are different types. I don't know what they are all called. One MIGHT be called "rear entry, in line wrench" (some how that sounds perverted???). These "rear entry " slide into the inside of the action like the bolt and grip along the rails... they can twist an action if the barrel is too tight to begin with. Most people who use them know enough to be careful and not try to remove factory installed barrels with them. The NSS and Wheeler etc do not cause actions to twist. THey are designed specifically NOT to do so. THey wrap around and clamp to the outside of the action and sometimes encorporate a hardened screw thru the action screw hole. Some are better than others, NSS might be an example. But none of them of this type should ever cause twisting of the action.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RC20

Ok, maybe we can agree to disagree.

I assume you care because you have responded. I also care.

I do think you spun it out to turn it into a choice of tools and then started to change what the post was about and that is the use of an action wrench, what force is being required to remove nuts these days as well as the crush issue on the receiver with that tool. there is no perfect tool and people choose tools based on what suits them, not right or wrong.

I will point out, I grew up where we not only had to make do, my dad was a mechanic and we pretty much had a farm type existence with keeping things working.

So while I am new to the Savage work, I have been working with, around and creating solutions to equipment and machinery problems for something around 55 years. If you want to call that arrogance you are welcome to do so. I am a designated engineer (no letters) for my facility because of that experience as well as willing to stand my ground when I believe I am right (though in this case I believe its a matter of tool preference and not right or wrong)


some of this is obvious practical mechanical sense. some of this is Savage specific and I hope you will note I don't just throw out an opinion in areas that are and I have no experience with.


And no I do not have nor intend to have any experience with a barrel vice. It does not fit what works for me, obviously it does for you and others. If asked I will support the action wrench and why. To me it looks like a some and some boiling down to what suits any given person and how they work as well as how much of it they do and how much bench space they have.

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Also, the only reason I suggested the barrel vise was because of the issues you were having with your action wrench. Sometimes you need different tools and tactics to get the job done, depending upon what "problems" you come across. This is particularly true when it comes to removing and installing barrels on Savages. As I said about my own experience, Sharp Shooter Supply, THE "Savage Guru", bar none, recommended I try a barrel vise for the exact same reason some time ago. I also resisted his advice because the action wrench seemed like a better, more sophisticated, more "proper" tool for the job, but I learned that sometimes the barrels were too difficult to remove and/or install without a barrel vise. Once I got one, I discovered I never really needed the action wrench for Savages. I do like them for Remingtons, though.

Furthermore, as my grandmother used to say, "Smart people learn from their mistakes... but REALLY smart people learn from OTHER people's mistakes."

Been there, done that. ;)