OK, here it goes......need help for new Savage!!

I am in progress to order my first Savage rifle....BUT I am not sure what to get.
Bare with me, I am sort of new to the hobby....not a bloody rookie but no veteran.
I do not reload ( I know...) I am sort of turned of by hard kickers.
I love to have a super accurate rifle....it has to be a heavy barrel and sort of target stock ( may have to go after market with stock )
I do not hunt, but willing to do if needed...
Caliber....Hmmm....something affordable as facory ammo, something maybe ok for long range....something does not kick the *** out of me.
Been reading about a 243, is there good enough ammo available?
Guess what I am asking is a bit help to decide what model and if needed what to add/do/customize and still have a affordable rifle.
Any ideas, any suggestions, any help is greatly apreciated...
Thanks!!

Here is my take on your request

Savage model 12 Long range precision .243 #19136 , 260rem 19138 or 6.5cred # 19137
Bolt a Vortex, Leupold ,Sightron or Nightforce sight on top and your set for long range bench shooting

The second way is built it yourself
Take a model 10,11,12 action
Pick a chassis - XLR , MTD, Boyd etc... lots out there
Barrel - Shilen, Criterion, Mcgowen etc... lots of vendors
Scope/Rings - Vortex, Nightforce, Leupold etc....
Build it in a .243 6mm, 260rem 6.5 etc.... again lots of choices that would have minor recoil

Reloading will give you the ability to also tame the recoil and still have match grade ammo. This way you can tune the load to suit you and your needs.

I would seriously consider the 6.5 Creedmoor, as the caliber to go with. It is a low recoil, hard hitting, accurate round, that people who shoot .308 Winchester, are switching to the now popular 6.5mm Calibers. The 6.5 mm calibers use long-for-weight bullets that slice through the air, with less velocity loss than .30 caliber bullets, in the same weight. Since these bullets have high sectional density, that means they penetrate very well also. You can use the Creedmoor for long distance shooting, plus it's a fine caliber to hunt Whitetail Deer, Mule Deer, Pronghorn Antelope, Elk, even Moose. The Swedish use the 6.5X55 round to kill more Moose in Sweden than any other caliber, and the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 6.5X55 round are ballistically very close to each other. I would NOT use the Creedmoor on dangerous Game like Brown or Grizzly bears, but everything else in North America would be fine.

I don't yet have a Creedmoor, but it's next on my list.

6.5 creed is what you need

+1 6.5 Creedmoor.. 6.5 (whisper) 6.5 Creedmoor. You can almost hear it calling out in the distant woods..

I heard good things about 6.5mm during the 60's to 70's but the Carl Gustaf Swedes were hard to find. Now the Creedmoor made 6.5mm much more available to US shooters.

Go to your closest Cabelas and pick up a 10T in 6.5 creedmoor. Under 600 bucks. Swap out the scope mount to a 20 MOA mount, then get a 6-24x50 scope. The 10T is a Cabelas exclusive. 24 inch bull barrel with 5R rifling. Savage just release the stealth in 6.5 and 308. Get the 6.5. Cost more but better built.

Just by your description it sounds to me like you're just looking for an accurate, economical plinker.
Super accurate, contrary to popular internet lore, doesn't have to weigh 12# and have a truck axle for a barrel.
In my opinion the best way to "buy accuracy, especially for someone starting out, is to shoot a lot of ammo.
Most any modern rifle produced today is capable of sub minute accuracy with a load it likes.
As far as choosing a caliber, from what you describe I'd go with a .223 for a couple of reasons.
For one recoil is really mild and the cartridge is really efficient, fast, and flat shooting. Another good reason is bulk pack of Federal 55gr 100 round boxes are available at most "Big blue walled" stores for about $37. It will get you out a couple of hundred (400+) yards which may not be as far as a bunch of the "internet commandos" shoot (sarcasm) but is in reality a pretty far piece.
From what I've seen of ammo prices if you buy the cheap stuff ($19 per box of 20 )and catch it on sale, you may get 40 rounds of .243 at that price in my neck of the woods.
Just personal preference, but I prefer rifles based on the model 10/110 action (includes 11,12,14,16 and 110,111,112,114,116) to the Axis series of rifles
If you want something light and portable that you can walk around the woods with, any of the model 11s should do just fine.
If you want something a little heavier and or longer that you would be mostly shooting from a bench, then one of the model 12 "varmint rifles" (like the 12BVSS) is really nice.
Kind of a shorter, more portable but still fairly heavy option (due to the heavy but typically shorter barrels) that benches well would be one of the model 10 law enforcement rifles.
Not really sure what your budget is, A lot of guys here from all walks of life and one guys idea of budget friendly, may not be on the same planet as another fellas idea of budget friendly. Most of the rifles produced today, especially full featured Savages, don't need all the tinkering and aftermarket parts they did in years past to shoot exceptionally well.
Buy good name brand rings and bases and a good name brand scope. (Leupold and Burris make some affordable serviceable stuff) I cant stress enough that a good name brand mounts and glass is much more important than high magnification long sunshades and "tactical" appearance and will serve you better in the long run.

Good luck.

+1 on the .223, preferably a model 12 varmint. You say you're not really into hunting, and want something affordable when it comes to factory ammo. Nothing cheaper than a 223. You can get factory ammo for under 50 cents a pop that'll shoot well under MOA. You can buy factory loads that'll shoot 600 yds to good precision for under 60 cents a load (on sale at Cabelas right now, Australian Outback 69 gr. SMK for $11.04 per 20) and if you want to plink, you can get 55 gr FMJ all day long for 38 cents a round in bulk.

Buy a model 12FV ( a Cabelas special) on sale for $349 and get the $100 rebate, Add a $250 scope, base and rings for another hundred, and a $180 laminate stock with a $90 bi-pod and you're at about $900 total investment. That will get you well started on your way to learning to shoot distance with accuracy without breaking the bank.

+2 on the 223
Hard to beat for price per round and recoil
I have several calibers that I shoot but the 223 is my favorite and the one I shoot the most
Jack

Great Ammo is available for the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 243 Win. The 243 Win is my favorite, but both shoot well.

Dennis

For the range you're wanting to shoot I'd buy the Creedmoor. I shoot a 260 but since you don't reload, IMO the cm is a better choice because of the quality of off the shelf ammo.

The problem with trying to answer a question like the OP has asked is without a heck of a lot of knowledge and information that he says he does not have, it is very difficult to help him no matter how much we want to do that. And people who are not well versed in the necessary information who want to get into "long range shooting" are, in my opinion, whistling Dixie. You can't take flying lessons and as soon as you solo, go fly an F-15 Tomcat. It doesn't work that way for much of anything in life, and it doesn't work that way for shooters, especially those who want to shoot a thousand yards or more. There are a lot of reasons for that, but this isn't the place to go into those. I don't know how well that helps the OP, so I'm going to be the one to tell him the news he probably does not want to hear.

Mr. OP, there are a lot of things you will need to know before you can make an informed decision regarding what you have asked. Do your home work. What some of these guys have recommended to you are good recommendations and will likely work for you, ONCE YOU KNOW and understand what they know. But if you don't learn and understand what they know, the rifle probably is not going to do what you want because you don't know enough to make it do what you want and that is the plain truth of it. The reason for that is because the rifle is only half of the eqaution for making a good shooter. What the shooter's training has been, what he knows and understands, and how much shoting experience he has is the other half.

If you want to buy a rifle and buy off the shelf ammo and go out to a range on Saturday and enjoy a day of shooting, that is one thing. But if you want to be able to do what some of the guys here are able to do, then you are going to have to pay the same dues they did and there is nothing we can do to short cut that process. You have to know what you are doing and there is a heckofva a lot more to this than most people believe. We will be happy to help any way we can, but you need a good loading manual with ballistic tables in it to BEGIN, and once you have studied AND UNDERSTAND the charts of the cartridges you may be interested in, then you are off to a good start. If you don't want to go that far, then stick to shooting factory ammo in a factory rifle and be happy with it because that is all you are going to be able to do. You can't start on third base and expect to be a capable shooter.

So get yourself a good manual and study it and then come back here with knowledge about the cartridge or cartridges you are interested in and we'll go from there. Just make sure the cartridge and bullet you choose will stay supersonic for as far as you expect to shoot. After that, there are many good shooters here who can help you with suggestions about barrel harmonics, how to estimate range, dope the wind, read mirage, and all sorts of helpful information you'll need to become a good shooter. So get started and let us know how we can help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drybean

6.5 creed is what you need

---

This ^^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SavageShooter

The problem with trying to answer a question like the OP has asked is without a heck of a lot of knowledge and information that he says he does not have, it is very difficult to help him no matter how much we want to do that. And people who are not well versed in the necessary information who want to get into "long range shooting" are, in my opinion, whistling Dixie. You can't take flying lessons and as soon as you solo, go fly an F-15 Tomcat. It doesn't work that way for much of anything in life, and it doesn't work that way for shooters, especially those who want to shoot a thousand yards or more. There are a lot of reasons for that, but this isn't the place to go into those. I don't know how well that helps the OP, so I'm going to be the one to tell him the news he probably does not want to hear.

Mr. OP, there are a lot of things you will need to know before you can make an informed decision regarding what you have asked. Do your home work. What some of these guys have recommended to you are good recommendations and will likely work for you, ONCE YOU KNOW and understand what they know. But if you don't learn and understand what they know, the rifle probably is not going to do what you want because you don't know enough to make it do what you want and that is the plain truth of it. The reason for that is because the rifle is only half of the eqaution for making a good shooter. What the shooter's training has been, what he knows and understands, and how much shoting experience he has is the other half.

If you want to buy a rifle and buy off the shelf ammo and go out to a range on Saturday and enjoy a day of shooting, that is one thing. But if you want to be able to do what some of the guys here are able to do, then you are going to have to pay the same dues they did and there is nothing we can do to short cut that process. You have to know what you are doing and there is a heckofva a lot more to this than most people believe. We will be happy to help any way we can, but you need a good loading manual with ballistic tables in it to BEGIN, and once you have studied AND UNDERSTAND the charts of the cartridges you may be interested in, then you are off to a good start. If you don't want to go that far, then stick to shooting factory ammo in a factory rifle and be happy with it because that is all you are going to be able to do. You can't start on third base and expect to be a capable shooter.

So get yourself a good manual and study it and then come back here with knowledge about the cartridge or cartridges you are interested in and we'll go from there. Just make sure the cartridge and bullet you choose will stay supersonic for as far as you expect to shoot. After that, there are many good shooters here who can help you with suggestions about barrel harmonics, how to estimate range, dope the wind, read mirage, and all sorts of helpful information you'll need to become a good shooter. So get started and let us know how we can help.

---

Im surprised no one asked what long-range means for him. 300yd with a 22LR is not the same as with a 7mmRem Mag, and will teach wind reading much more efficiently. Guns that consistently get to 1000yds and beyond require much more dedication not only to practice, but equipment.
There is no better teacher that trigger time and spent cartridges, IF the shooter knows why the outcome is such when bullet hits (either missing or hitting the mark)
The comments by SavageShooter are correct, but the OP may have enough knowledge to understand things, and we are clueless of his experience.

For sure a 223 will provide plenty of satisfaction, trigger time for cheap, with low recoil to boot, and that is better than a bigger cartridge that he won't shoot due to cost or recoil. I would rather be a great shooter with a so-so gun than the other way around.

Once you start going long, environmentals will have a more significant effect, and certain bullets will buck wind better. Bullets have more significance than cartridges in that aspect. That is were understanding the ballistics recommendation comes into place.

The beauty of a Savage is that you could switch barrels and be shooting something else in the same rifle if you want to improve. I

If you start with a semidecent gun and consistent ammo you will do well. Good bases and reliable scope (liking the Fixed SWFA SS more and more) If you need to change the stock on the cheap Boyd's laminates, the sky is the limit after that.

Quote:

---

The beauty of a Savage is that you could switch barrels and be shooting something else in the same rifle if you want to improve.

---

And that's the truth. Nothing outside of a TC Encore or maybe a Handi Rifle can change accurate barrels quicker. Savage makes a lot of things easy for shooters and you just gotta love'm.

Bottom dollar entry level, Dicks has the 11VT for $419 after rebate or you can pick up heavy barrel Axis off GunBroker for $239 after rebate. Get a laminate stock from Stockys or Boyds. You'll have a solid platform.

Put on a scope that cost as much as the rifle, and, away you go!

Any of the calibers above are awesome.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I shoot both .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. For a person starting out, I'd recommend the .223. In relative terms, it is inexpensive to shoot (cost / round) and you will learn a lot about shooting. You will probably reach your limit with .223 around 500 yards (target shooting). .223 is the best bang for the buck. If you find that you really enjoy shooting step-up to the 6.5 Creedmoor. (It is more expensive to shoot / round, but can go a longer distance.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keith_A

I shoot both .223 and 6.5 Creedmoor. For a person starting out, I'd recommend the .223. In relative terms, it is inexpensive to shoot (cost / round) and you will learn a lot about shooting. You will probably reach your limit with .223 around 500 yards (target shooting). .223 is the best bang for the buck. If you find that you really enjoy shooting step-up to the 6.5 Creedmoor. (It is more expensive to shoot / round, but can go a longer distance.)

---

I think you hit the nail on the head.....

When I first read the post, i thought the original poster was going to both target shoot, and Hunt. If he was going to do both, than i'd go 6.5 Creedmoor. Since he's not gonna hunt, the .223 is the cheaper/easier way to go.

I don't get the Hunt part if forced to.

243 has a reputation for using up barrels, so a lot of target shooting you would want to think about getting setup for a barrel change.

223 is a good choice for target and low impact. 6.5 mm are more versatile.

308 is rated good for low barrel impact, more recoil with factory ammo but a decent recoil pad negates that.

223 not my choice for hunting but it can work ok.

Alien, what is long distance to you? With the information you have given us, I offer this, and it is somewhat arbitrary. If long range to you is 4-500 yards any of Savages heavy barrel 223s will be ideal. Tons of quality, accurate affordable ammo available off the shelf. At longer distances I would look toward the 6.5 Creedmoor. More and more manufacturers are cranking out good target rifles in the Creedmoor and the variety and availibity of ammo is still improving. That said, there is nothing at all wrong with the 243. It would be cheaper to shoot than the Creedmoor. For some reason though, it just doesn't seem as inherently accurate, although it may be more than accurate enough for what you want.

6.5x47 6 dasher 300wsm, 6 dasher is the most accurate round as of today it holds more records at long range than any other caliber. get into reloading you will enjoy it

look up John Widden see what he shoots

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Texas10

....... snip..............Buy a model 12FV ( a Cabelas special) on sale for $349 and get the $100 rebate, Add a $250 scope, base and rings for another hundred, and a $180 laminate stock with a $90 bi-pod and you're at about $900 total investment. That will get you well started on your way to learning to shoot distance with accuracy without breaking the bank.

---

Excellent advice. Actually a rig like this would even allow the OP to get started in F/TR shooting at 600 yards. For cheap scopes, I recommend a Mueller. Borrow or buy a throater reamer and give it a turn or two so that the chamber throat is long enough to shoot 80gr Berger VLDs and the gun is likely to provide a lot of fun in F/TR. Might even do well depending on the level of competition. The .223 is hard to beat when it comes to bang-for-the-buck. When I beat all the guys shooting .308s, I smile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alien883

I am in progress to order my first Savage rifle....BUT I am not sure what to get.
Bare with me, I am sort of new to the hobby....not a bloody rookie but no veteran.
I do not reload ( I know...) I am sort of turned of by hard kickers.
I love to have a super accurate rifle....it has to be a heavy barrel and sort of target stock ( may have to go after market with stock )
I do not hunt, but willing to do if needed...
Caliber....Hmmm....something affordable as facory ammo, something maybe ok for long range....something does not kick the *** out of me.
Been reading about a 243, is there good enough ammo available?
Guess what I am asking is a bit help to decide what model and if needed what to add/do/customize and still have a affordable rifle.
Any ideas, any suggestions, any help is greatly apreciated...
Thanks!!

---

I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I spent over a year thinking (over thinking?) and finally ordered a Predator Hunter Max 1 in 6.5 Creedmoor yesterday. My reasoning was:

Heavy rifles soak up recoil better than light rifles, the Predator weighs 8.5 lbs vs 6 or so for the lighter models. Heavy enough but not too heavy.

6.5 CR or 260 Remington kick less than 308 but don't burn out barrels as fast as a 243. I picked 6.5 CR over 260 Remington based on ammo cost and quality of available brass. There might be a slight performance difference between the 2, but I'll never notice it.

It doesn't have a target stock, but the Accustock seems pretty nice and I can always change stocks later. For now I think a nice bipod would help me more than a fancier stock.

This will be my first Savage so don't know about the trigger, but everything I've read indicates the Accutrigger will be more than acceptable. It will be nice to not have to spend $200 just for a decent trigger.

If you do go with a 243 there's plenty of good ammo available. Cheaper than 6.5 but I like the ballistics of the 6.5 bullets.

From one newb to another...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alien883

I am in progress to order my first Savage rifle....BUT I am not sure what to get.
Bare with me, I am sort of new to the hobby....not a bloody rookie but no veteran.
I do not reload ( I know...) I am sort of turned of by hard kickers.
I love to have a super accurate rifle....it has to be a heavy barrel and sort of target stock ( may have to go after market with stock )
I do not hunt, but willing to do if needed...
Caliber....Hmmm....something affordable as facory ammo, something maybe ok for long range....something does not kick the *** out of me.
Been reading about a 243, is there good enough ammo available?
Guess what I am asking is a bit help to decide what model and if needed what to add/do/customize and still have a affordable rifle.
Any ideas, any suggestions, any help is greatly apreciated...
Thanks!!

---

Nothing wrong with the .243. It was a very popular long range 6mm in its day. These days we have better choices. The .243 is a known barrel burner but not knowing how much you plan to shoot that could or couldn't be a problem

Super accurate. Little.recoil. sounds like a 6BR to me.

For a little more long range 6.5 creedmoor.

You are building a heavy bench gun so recoil won't be problem

The .223 was built to fit an AR15 action. I don't see why someone would build a bolt gun around that cartridge when there are so many better choices out there.

I would start with a 223. The 6mm's are the caliber of choice for match shooters up to and including 600 yards. The 6.5 are pretty much the caliber of choice for the 1000 yard competition. There are always exceptions to every rule. There are 1000 yards records set with a 6BR, but you can bet your butt is was set in the best shooting conditions one could get. The big 300 dominate at 1000 when the conditions are terrible. The smaller calibers are easier to shoot well because of recoil most people don't like. There are other consideration that need to be taken into account, that being the bullet you NEED to be shooting to get the accuracy you want. I shoot Bergers in my 6.5X284 for 1000 yard matches, they want to be pushed in the high 2700's in most rifles, remember the exception to every rule. That's not to say you can't get good accuracy at 2500, however you will probably get beat by the guy shooting them at 2775FPS. One last thought, the 6.5X284 put the 6.5's on the map because of their success at the 1000 yard matches. If everyone shot a 308 it would be the top dog.

Son has a 12FV in 223. Thing is an absolute tack driver.

OK, wow....did not realize soooo many folks responded. A good sign how many people are willing to help and how many people are willing to straightening you out!!!!
First of all I want to pull my hat to Savageshooter!!>> You just sort of hit me in da back of my head so my cap came forward, haha....
Exactly, you don't learn this LR stuff by reading stories at snipehide.com or watching Sniper movies....I get this, I started long time ago to read about this fascinating fact that some people can shoot a fly of an egg at 600 Meters!! Then I wanted to try that too...haha...I had a hard time of putting 5 shoots into one inch with a 22 at 50 yards..bummer.
I read some more.....then I got me a 223 and love it...of course its all the way out with target stock and half mile long scope...guess what still no Sub MOA groups....bummer.....then reading and study some more....a 308 came along, and guess what still no super sniper groups....Grrrr....BUT, I love these rifles and I love to shoot. More studies, now I am into MOA, MIL and balistics....more studying.....I am now able to put 4 22's into 1/2 inch at 50 yards...we getting a bit better.
OK, I guess what I am saying is this: I got to start somewhere and I am aware of not getting good at 1000 yards over night...I am sure I am starting a bit high...haha...
So I got me the Savage 12 LRP in 243, goshhhh I love this thing looks so good!! Put a Athlon 6-25 BTR on and now we are waiting for range time...Yeahhhh I wont shoot fly eyes anytime soon, BUT I will study some more and having a ball to shoot!!! Scope is in MIL/MIL....MORE studying!!!!
Long range here in my woods is about 150 yards, finding a 200 yard range is hard. So 243 it is, I will be reloading >> after I studied some more....
Lots a things to learn, but I promise you I will have a ball trying!!
THANKs for all the good advice and the tap on the back of my head.....I sure need it !!!
I be back, I know I will........

[IMG]C:\Users\Reborn again\Pictures\Guns\Image-1564530534.jpg[/IMG]

Shot this group this morning with my Model 12FCV .223
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...%20bedding.jpg

[IMG]20again/Pictures/Guns/Image-1564530534.jpg[/IMG]

Here is my new toy....hope this picture shows up....Savage 12 LRP in 243 Win

[IMG]Image-1564530534[/IMG]

I went through the exact same thing a few months ago. I wanted to get into long range "benchrest" shooting at a local range. The monthly matches consist of 10 metal knock-down targets at 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards.

I picked up the Cabela's Savage 12FV in .223 mostly because the price was so inexpensive at ~$400 - $100 rebate = $300 and the fact that .223 ammo and components are so readily available (I handload). Shooting the .223 is inexpensive, very low recoil, and there is a lot of data out there. I put on a 20MOA picatinny and a used $300 Weaver T36 which is plenty for my needs. It shoots better than my abilities right now.

I would say that in my mind the only limiting factor that I see in my setup is that the twist on the Cabela's 12FV is 1:9 thus the max recommended bullet weight is 73gr. If I had a 1:8 I could shoot 80gr max and if I had a 1:7 I could take that up to 90gr. "In my mind" are they keywords here. I am not certain that my abilities exceed the abilities of the rifle yet. That is, I am not sure if I shoot well enough to warrant a faster twist. I just know that I've read heavier bullets will fare better in wind at longer distances and thus I should hit more targets in wind with a heavier bullet. I cannot say that I am that good of a shooter that I know the lighter bullets / 1:9 twist is limiting me. I need to shoot more. However, if/when I decide I want a faster twist barrel the cost is about $350 and I can change the barrel myself with a nut wrench and action wrench (about $100 for both).

Instead of a new stock, trigger, or other mods to the stock rifle I invested in a Bald Eagle rest (less than $200 on sale) and some Protektor bags. I would say the rest and bags made the most significant positive effect on my ability to hit targets out to 600 yards.

If you get a .223 you will have the opportunity to shoot a lot for cheap and the recoil is nothing however accuracy is great. If the photo uploads correctly it is a photo of a 3 sho group @ 100 yards with Berger 73gr bullets (hand loaded). If you buy your bullets the 69gr SMKs are the best over the counter inexpensive ammo. Anyways, shooting is what its about and the .223 will lend itself to a lot of shooting. Yeah if I want to really compete / beat the guys next to me shooting $3k custom rifles in 6.5x47 then not only will I have to invest in a custom rifle I will also need to invest in new dies and brass and work up loads, however it doesn't stop there. I will need to handload very very carefully, trimming cases, trimming necks, sorting brass and bullets by weight, etc etc. I mean you can spend more time hand loading than shooting. A friend of mine says "keep it simple, have fun shooting". I'm taking his advice for now until I get to the point where I am itching to take it to the next level, knowing the time and equipment and expense commitment. I'm not there yet. I have not even hit the limit of the rifle. And at $400 the entire rifle cost less than a custom action- a lot less.

Best of luck. PM me if you want to chat about the journey. Or post on the forum.

Michael



Attachment 2244

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SavageShooter

The problem with trying to answer a question like the OP has asked is without a heck of a lot of knowledge and information that he says he does not have, it is very difficult to help him no matter how much we want to do that. And people who are not well versed in the necessary information who want to get into "long range shooting" are, in my opinion, whistling Dixie. You can't take flying lessons and as soon as you solo, go fly an F-15 Tomcat. It doesn't work that way for much of anything in life, and it doesn't work that way for shooters, especially those who want to shoot a thousand yards or more. There are a lot of reasons for that, but this isn't the place to go into those. I don't know how well that helps the OP, so I'm going to be the one to tell him the news he probably does not want to hear.

Mr. OP, there are a lot of things you will need to know before you can make an informed decision regarding what you have asked. Do your home work. What some of these guys have recommended to you are good recommendations and will likely work for you, ONCE YOU KNOW and understand what they know. But if you don't learn and understand what they know, the rifle probably is not going to do what you want because you don't know enough to make it do what you want and that is the plain truth of it. The reason for that is because the rifle is only half of the eqaution for making a good shooter. What the shooter's training has been, what he knows and understands, and how much shoting experience he has is the other half.

If you want to buy a rifle and buy off the shelf ammo and go out to a range on Saturday and enjoy a day of shooting, that is one thing. But if you want to be able to do what some of the guys here are able to do, then you are going to have to pay the same dues they did and there is nothing we can do to short cut that process. You have to know what you are doing and there is a heckofva a lot more to this than most people believe. We will be happy to help any way we can, but you need a good loading manual with ballistic tables in it to BEGIN, and once you have studied AND UNDERSTAND the charts of the cartridges you may be interested in, then you are off to a good start. If you don't want to go that far, then stick to shooting factory ammo in a factory rifle and be happy with it because that is all you are going to be able to do. You can't start on third base and expect to be a capable shooter.

So get yourself a good manual and study it and then come back here with knowledge about the cartridge or cartridges you are interested in and we'll go from there. Just make sure the cartridge and bullet you choose will stay supersonic for as far as you expect to shoot. After that, there are many good shooters here who can help you with suggestions about barrel harmonics, how to estimate range, dope the wind, read mirage, and all sorts of helpful information you'll need to become a good shooter. So get started and let us know how we can help.

---

100% This!! And you know what in my little town I've never seen a box of 6.5 creedmore rounds! But I've seen shelves full of 223-243-308. And none of those will kick that bad. Remember we don't all live in a big city or town with a BPS next door. And he don't reload.
I vote 223 also and master 100-300 yards first. 300 is a good long poke in the real world.

I shot my Cabela's Savage 12FV .223 1:9 twist on Friday and was really impressed. I had worked up a new load with 73gr Berger bullets using 22.0 gr of Varget so I really just wanted to get the scope dialed in at 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards (figure out the click adjustments). Of course I knew it would shoot well out to 300 however I was very impressed/surprised to see that out to 600 yards I managed to shoot 4" group with no wind. Very good conditions, and the rifle shot very well.

Just wanted to pass along the capabilities of these bargain rifles.

Michael