Copper Fouling Problem

I have never had any firearm that copper fouled bad until now. My 110 FLP 25/06 is a copper mine! I broke the barrel in properly,and have shot close to 500 rds out of it.
It shoots 100gr bullets great-sub moa at 100yrds,but heavier bullets are so-so,usually 1.5-2 moa.

I have hand lapped the barrel,and it still takes hours to clean this thing,and it still has copper in the barrel.Nothing will take the copper completely out.
I was going to send it back to Savage,but figured if they put another barrel on it,I would have the same problem since it would have probably been machined with the same tooling.

Any Idea's! My 308 and 300WM have always been great shooters and don't copper foul much at all.
I'm open to suggestions.

500 rounds you say.... well if you have a standard barrel.. then it'll foul alot faster than a stainless...

So you waited this long to see.. after 30 or 40 you should have cleaned it. I use Tiptons truly remarkable bore cleaner. I found it the fastest and the most agressive for copper.

Is there an accuracy problem or are you just wanting to get the last bit of copper out "just because"?

It only been in the last decade or so that copper fouling has become such a problem. I don't remember much ever being said about it in the sixties, seventies and eighties. Middle of the nineties its a big problem. So what happened -- did it just start, was there all along and never bothered, what? Could be several products came out on the market around then for copper removal. Possible the bullet jackets are different composition than previously. Maybe increased velocities compounded a minor problem.

My first question would be does it affect accuracy? If so what have you tried--Different solvents? Lower velocities? Different bullets? There's so many variables too sort through. You didn't mentioned if these were reloads or factory loads you shot through this rifle. Its been my experience with many different calibers in various chamberings that the middle weight bullets tend too shoot best. Your barrel tends to reinforce that experience in that the 100 grainers are sub-MOA while the heavier (120 grain?) open up in group size.

I had a 22-250 barrel that was really bad. The new foaming bore cleaners are your best friend. Most barrels will get sparkling clean in one dose. Mine took 3 sessions each time to get all the copper out. The accuracy on mine would fall off like a cliff in 20 rounds. I pulled the barrel and put on a McGowen. That fix has worked on 3 other rifles also.

Good luck with yours.

If you get sick of cleaning it (like I did), give Jim at Northland a call, he'll fix you up good with a new barrel.

The copper fouling became a problem when most makers went to button broaching barrels which occured in the late 80's and early 90's. It seems from posts I have seen here that it varies all over the place, some barrels hardly copper up and others are as he said "copper mines". It is a cost thing. Button broaching is faster and cheaper while cut rifling is labor intensive and takes more time.

El Lobo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by flatshooter

500 rounds you say.... well if you have a standard barrel.. then it'll foul alot faster than a stainless...

So you waited this long to see.. after 30 or 40 you should have cleaned it. I use Tiptons truly remarkable bore cleaner. I found it the fastest and the most agressive for copper.

---

I guess you took my thread the wrong way.I have been cleaning this barrel after about every 15-20 shots since the break in procedure I use. The accuracy really falls off after 15 rds.
I just figured that after a few hundred rounds that it would get better,but it hasn't.

I have tried just about every known copper remover on the market,and the best I've found is Montana Extreme but it doesn't even get it all out. Thanks for the replies,guys.

must be Barnes bullets causing the fouling.

Foam bore cleaner will clean your barrel better than ANYTHING on the market, the United States Military uses it on fire arms to field pieces.

[img width=424 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5065.jpg[/img]

Use a poor mans bore scope, take a close up look at your bore and rifling with a magnifying glass to inspect a small section of your bore.


Below, cheap ba$tard bore scope. (you will be able to see clearly about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch "inside" the bore at the muzzle.

[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6876.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6874.jpg[/img]

What your problems might be

[img width=600 height=428]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-2-201084244PM.jpg[/img]

You might just have "rough" button rifling, looking at the bore with a magnifying glass, the bore will look like small waves in the rifling or small valleys and peaks, (scallops) which pick up copper easily.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o.../990900081.jpg

Please take my word about foam bore cleaner, I saw it used at a military depot where I worked and now foam is all I use.

Fire lapping might "fix" your problem by knocking off the high points and rough edges of the bore.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsm...723/index.html

Q: What do we think of Fire Lapping?

A: Firelapping does have some applications. Example being in some factory type barrels that have a rough bore finish or very rough throat and this causes the barrel to foul badly. Fire Lapping can help smooth it out and reduce some of the fouling. Depending on how it's done or how many times the barrel is firelapped lengthen of the throat can occur. Fire lapping is said to "improve" the finish of a bore, but improve is a relative term based on what the finish is to begin with.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/FAQ-c1246-wp3352.htm

http://www.stevekershawfirearms.co.u...embarrels.html

Try pushing a patch soaked with Lock Eze down the barrel after cleaning. It contains graphite and after the first shoot, will produce a layer of carbon that will help prevent coppering.

A bare bullet going thru a bare steel barrel will leave copper like tires spinning on hot asphalt.

I have a 300WSm that was the same way. I ran half of the Tubbs Final Finish treatment through it and that cleaned it up pretty well. And I used some JB on it. It still copper fouls more than my other barrels, but cleans up easier and accuracy doesn't fall off as fast either. I've seen no loss in accuracy due to the treatment - maybe even better.

Don't know if they make them for quarter-bores or not.
Elkbane

Sometimes works ... clean the barrel to be spotless using alternating copper solvents and powder solvents just in case its layered. When back to bare metal (could take a few days), apply a few really decent swabs of Tetra Gun lubricant, let it sit and then patch out. It sometimes works to reduce copper fouling. Change projectiles as well ... you may be surprised at the difference in jackets.
Cheers...
Con

I have a old M-39 mosin nagant that I notice the ammount of copper left in the bore differs greatly from diffrent brands and styles of bullets.
I shoot one type/brand of bullet and it leaves hardly any copper, I shoot another brand/type and it looks like I copper plated the inside of my barrel.

Hornadys copper a couple of my barrels up, Sierras do not. Barnes do not.

Update-
I bought 2 different brands of Foam Bore Cleaner and tried them out on the 110FLP 25/06 and my 10FCP 308 today. I sprayed it in both barrels and let it soak for 1/2hr them patched out the bores. The 308 doesn't foul much,so it cleaned up with the first try.
The 25/06 is just a PITA though,After soaking and cleaning the bore 3 times with the foam and also using a brush through the bore afterwards,it still has a load of copper in the bore.
I have ordered some Tubbs Final Finish bullets,and will give them a try before ordering a new barrel.

As far as the bullets that I load and shoot out of this rifle,I'd say that they all are about the same when it comes to the copper fouling.
I'm shooting Berger,Barnes,Hornady,Nosler,and Sierra bullets in 100,110,115,117,and 120grain.

Maybe I'm just too picky,but if my Savage 308 and 300WM will shoot 1/2moa or smaller groups the 25/06 ought to be able to do it also.And without fouling the bore to bad.

You're going to have to get the copper out of the bore first, before you try the Tubb's system. If not, you won't do any good with the Tubb's bullets at all. That Tubb's bullet needs to ride down a clean, bare steel barrel to do it's polishing. As it sits now, it's just going to ride down a layer of copper.

If 3 foam sessions didn't get all the copper out, that barrel is really bad :o :o

I have also used a chamber plug, stood the rifle up vertically, and literally filled the barrel full of Butch's and left it that way for an hour. You may try that too.

Leave the foam bore cleaner in over night and let the foam do all the work, remove the old foam and reapply until the bore comes clean. On milsurps with pitted or frosted bores it might take as many as five or more applications to remove the copper.

Your throat or bore could have a rough spot causing a copper buildup, the best part about foam is you are doing no harm or causing any mechanical cleaning damage or bore wear.

I had an '06 that was as bad as or worse than what you describe. Even half a dozen foaming bore cleaner sessions wouldn't fix it. I fire lapped with the Beartooth Bullets kit, and that helped significantly, but it still fell into the 'copper mine' category.

I did fix it in the end, though. Know how? Ultimate Bore Coat. Search for it, or read up over on 24hourcampfire.com.

One app took care of it (remember that I had fire lapped first, though. I think their site is ultimatecoatingsinc.com, but I may not be remembering that correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

I have never had any firearm that copper fouled bad until now. My 110 FLP 25/06 is a copper mine! I broke the barrel in properly,and have shot close to 500 rds out of it.
It shoots 100gr bullets great-sub moa at 100yrds,but heavier bullets are so-so,usually 1.5-2 moa.

I have hand lapped the barrel,and it still takes hours to clean this thing,and it still has copper in the barrel.Nothing will take the copper completely out.
I was going to send it back to Savage,but figured if they put another barrel on it,I would have the same problem since it would have probably been machined with the same tooling.

Any Idea's! My 308 and 300WM have always been great shooters and don't copper foul much at all.
I'm open to suggestions.

---

this post really interest me,,I have a rem 700 sps varmint bbl 22-250,,and my 50 gr V-max load is near max,and my rifle coppers excesively to,I usually clean it after 20 rounds,,I just attributted my copper fouling to my load a little above hornady's recomendations,,what's your load like??a little hot??

On thing to try to reduce the initial copper fouling is pretreating the bore with Colloidal graphite, ie Lock-Ease. After the first shot out of a clean barrel the powder residue provides a barrier between the bore and bullet. That powder residue layer contains a large percentage of graphite, It used in powder production, its the black stuff that clings to your powder measure. Its the reason the first shot will generally be at a lower velocity and out of the group of the following shots in the string. Most times its mistakenly referred to as the "cold barrel shot" when in fact its the clean barrel shot.

Pretreating with Colloidal graphite tends to duplicate the initial powder layer. Most times with a pretreated bore the clean barrel shot will be closer to the velocity, closer or in the group of the following shots and reduces copper fouling.

A comment from a BR shooter...

Quote:

---

I attended Tony Boyer's School last June and when he was critiquing my cleaning regimen he asked for the Lock-Ease."

---

I for one will not question Tony's abilities or methods!

Pretreating is easy, apply a few drops Lock-ease n a patch, take two or three passes through the bore and allow the carrier(alcohol) to flash off then fire away. Use a bore guide,you want the graphite in the bore, not in the chamber!

Cleaning is the same as normal. Use you favorite bore cleaner.

I too have Copper Mine, a 700 VLS in 243. I swear a bullet starts out as a 6, but exits a 22! Pretreating reduces the copper fouling in that barrel quit a bit and reduces the large pile of blue patches to a few.

All my barrels are pretreated prior to shooting. BTW, I don't like oil or anything contain oils in my barrels. When oil burns it leaves behind a hard carbon. Since the temperature is at it highest just past the freebore to about an inch down the bore its a good way to form the dreaded carbon ring and build up in the gap space. Before firing I patch out with denatured alcohol then pretreat with Lock-Ease.

It may not completely eliminate copper fouling, but it certainly will help reduce it in all but those barrels rifled with a rattail file!


Bill

I've mentioned this before, but it bears mentioning again now that I've read all of the posts discussing how to remove copper with the various foaming cleaners, and copper removers.

I can't stress how EASY copper removal is if you use an electronic cleaner. I built one using 2 "C" batteries, and other parts from Radio Shack (less than $10). The electronic cleaner takes all the work out of copper removal. Think Outers Foul Out at a fraction of the price.

Now that I built my cleaner, I can set a gun up and have it down to bare-steel in 15 minutes. I don't care how much copper/lead/carbon fouling is in that barrel-within 15 minutes it will be as clean as the day it was manufactured (probably cleaner). And, while the barrel is being cleaned, you are free to do other stuff like clean & oil the bolt.

I was hesitant at first to try one, but once I built mine-I gave all of my copper cleaners away. KG-12 (best I had tried), Blue Wonder, Hoppes Copper Remover, and about 3 others I can't remember the name of were given away.

Here is the link if you want to give it a shot: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

You don't have to follow the plans exactly as they are laid out on that site. I bought a dual "C" battery holder, alligator clips, and then soldered 2 ft. sections of wire between the clips & battery holder. You can get the metal rod from Home Depot. I use a foam ear plug in the chamber end for a plug. On the rod I'll wrap a little painters tape around it about every 6" to keep the rod centered, and keep it from shorting out to the barrel. Have yet to find a bore that can't be cleaned in 15 minutes or less this way.

Now of course this does not address why the OP's bore is leaving copper in the first place. I have a Savage 12FV that is real quick to coat the bore in copper. You can physically see the "waves" in the rifling. It came from the factory that way, and it shoots like no other rifle I have ever handled so I don't intend to do anything different. I shoot it, it coppers, I use the electronic cleaner & all is well. If yours is leaving copper and is not accurate then you need to try something to get it to shoot better. At least I had an idea about getting the copper out. Can't offer much on the better accuracy front.

I have a SPS .308 that is at least as bad as you describe. I would shoot 20 rounds and spend up to 3 cleaning sessions of 2 hours each to get it totally clean. I tried every bore cleaner, including foaming bore cleaners I could get my hands on. In the end the only thing that has worked is Barnes CR-10.

I too broke my barrel in using my usual 50 round barrel break in procedure. After I had about 150 rounds through my barrel I ordered a Tubbs Final Finish Kit. After shooting the first 10 rounds I wondered what I had gotten myself into as after an hour and a half of cleaning it was not clean. Once I finally got it clean I proceded to step 2 etc. Buy the time I finished with the Tubbs Final Finish Kit I could totally clean my barrel in 20 - 30 minutes start to finish.

I then put another 50 rounds through it and things stayed about the same but my accuracy improved.

I then purchased Microlon Gun Juice per a local gunsmiths recommendations and treated my bore with the Gun Juice. After treating with Gun Juice once again I saw a slight improvement in accuracy, and now after 20 rounds I can totally clean my barrel in 15 - 20 minutes.

I had polished my bore with Flitz Metal Polish a few times and actually used a patch coated with Flitz Metal Polish with Barnes CR-10 dribbled on top of the Flitz to clean the barrel. In fact before the Tubbs Final Finish Treatment that was the only way I could get it totally clean. I had my lands like a mirror but was not getting the bottom of the grooves polished. They looked like a bad washboard road, well until the Tubbs Final Finish Treatment that is.

I too had never seen a barrel fould like this one.

Larry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slowpoke Slim

You're going to have to get the copper out of the bore first, before you try the Tubb's system. If not, you won't do any good with the Tubb's bullets at all. That Tubb's bullet needs to ride down a clean, bare steel barrel to do it's polishing. As it sits now, it's just going to ride down a layer of copper.

If 3 foam sessions didn't get all the copper out, that barrel is really bad :o :o

I have also used a chamber plug, stood the rifle up vertically, and literally filled the barrel full of Butch's and left it that way for an hour. You may try that too.

---

Slowpoke,I'm well aware that I will have to get the barrel clean before I use the Final Finish bullets.I've only been shooting guns for close to 40yrs,so I don't think I'm a novice at this game.
It just blows my mind that a gun like this copper fouls so bad.I have close to 100 firearms,and have never had a rifle do this so severe. The sad thing is that I had the Savage Custom Shop put this rifle together,since they discontinued the 110FLP in 25/06 a couple years ago.
I just can't believe that barrels like this are passed by any kind of inspection from Savage.

Kawabuggy,Thanks for the link for the homemade electric cleaning rod.I'll have to put one together and try it out.

Well I've put together/tried the Electric Bore Cleaner. It works great!
I also loaded and shot all 50 Tubb's Final Finish bullets through the rifle. Man,This is a real PIA,on a copper fouling rifle like this,but I must say,The Tubb's system does work.
The rifle still copper fouls a little,but nothing like it did before. I can clean it in minutes,instead of days.

Before,It only liked to shoot 100gr bullets.Now it will shoot just about anything.

100gr Sierra Gameking,
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...illy/036-1.jpg

115gr Nosler CT Silvertip,
[img width=600 height=449]http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/033-1.jpg[/img]
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...lbilly/035.jpg

117gr Hornady SST,
[img width=600 height=344]http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/028-1.jpg[/img]

120gr Hornady HP Interlock,
[img width=493 height=450]http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af113/1Txhillbilly/023-2.jpg[/img]

Thanks for your help,guys. Problems like these are a pain to get a fix on,but with all the different idea's people have,they can get solved.

Sell it and move on.

Adrian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AVanGorder

Sell it and move on.

Adrian

---

And just why would I want to do that?

It amazes me the amount of smartazzes there are on this forum!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AVanGorder

Sell it and move on.

Adrian

---

And just why would I want to do that?

It amazes me the amount of smartazzes there are on this forum!

---

I didn't mean to offend you and perhaps I should have explained a little more. What I was thinking, in my own mind, was that if a gun requires so much work to make it shoot, or to keep it shooting right, it just isn't worth it to me.

Adrian

Try this stuff. It leaves all other copper cleaners in the dust. The best part is it contains zero Ammonia, and won't hurt your barrel. Bill T.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=225250

In this thread there is a picture of a scalloped bore. I purchased a 338 factory barrel a year ago on here. The bore was twice as bad as the picture on here. Not wanting to pawn the garbage off to another I sent it to Savage. They sent it back to me saying quit using a borescope or magnifying glass to look inside.
For a long time I just left the barrel in a drawer before I finally sent it to a barrel maker to see if they could lap it so I did not have those stupid cleaning problems.

I am happy to say that barrel cleaned up very nicely and is a real shooter. I had the Nitride treatment done as well and I have yet to clean the barrel after about a hundred rounds.

In my humble opinion. If you pay money for a item, why should you or I have to pay more money or time in making it function correctly?

Neal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Txhillbilly

Update-
I bought 2 different brands of Foam Bore Cleaner and tried them out on the 110FLP 25/06 and my 10FCP 308 today. I sprayed it in both barrels and let it soak for 1/2hr them patched out the bores. The 308 doesn't foul much,so it cleaned up with the first try.
The 25/06 is just a PITA though,After soaking and cleaning the bore 3 times with the foam and also using a brush through the bore afterwards,it still has a load of copper in the bore.
I have ordered some Tubbs Final Finish bullets,and will give them a try before ordering a new barrel.

As far as the bullets that I load and shoot out of this rifle,I'd say that they all are about the same when it comes to the copper fouling.
I'm shooting Berger,Barnes,Hornady,Nosler,and Sierra bullets in 100,110,115,117,and 120grain.

Maybe I'm just too picky,but if my Savage 308 and 300WM will shoot 1/2moa or smaller groups the 25/06 ought to be able to do it also.And without fouling the bore to bad.

---

You can safely leave most types of foam cleaners such as Wipeout in the barrel overnight, and they get a deeper cleaning. When
breaking in my .25-06 112 VLP, it took three nights of doing so until it got to the 50 or 60th round. Starting out, it usually got MOA
with 75-100gr bullets. It took awhile to do so with the 115gr Berger VLD's. I also have a couple of relatively new Mod 12 VLP's in
.243 and .22-250. The .243 was quite a bit better, and the .22-250 was a lot better during break-in to clean.

If it were me, I'd give Joe DeGrande at Customer Service a call prior to doing the Tubb's Final treatment. He has treated me more
than fair. It may be a matter of "all bets are off" after fire lapping, though.

Sorry about the out dated above post. Didn't notice there was a second
page. :-[

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by billt

Try this stuff. It leaves all other copper cleaners in the dust. The best part is it contains zero Ammonia, and won't hurt your barrel. Bill T.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=225250

---

Guess I got lucky finding a 16oz. bottle for $18.99 locally. And it does do an excelent, job of cleaning! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by p5200

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=225250
Guess I got lucky finding a 16oz. bottle for $18.99 locally. And it does do an excelent, job of cleaning! :)

---

Bore Tech Eliminator is amazing stuff. After I got it, I put a wet patch of it down the bores of my rifles I thought were clean with Sweet's, and Outers Foaming Bore Cleaner, and the patches came out GREEN! Bore Tech Eliminator is now all I use. It's got Ammonia based copper cleaners beat 11 ways to Sunday! I gave my Sweet's to a guy at our local club. I have no further use for it. Bill T.

Just my 2 cents. I tried three different, foam bore cleaners until I got to "Wipe Out" which I now use, exclusively, on all my rifles that copper. I have a .338-06 E.R Shaw and a .416 Taylor Shilen (both chrome moly barrels) that are the worst for me. But after a couple, to sometimes 3 or four, applications of the Wipe Out, I eventually get all the copper out. The same company also make an accelerator that helps the cleaner to work even a little better. I always break in my barrels and never shoot any of my "broken in" barrels more than 15-20 shots without running a solvent patch and nylon brush through them while at the range. As mentioned, by one of the other posters, I have much less problems removing copper from all of my SS barrels.

After trying all most every cleaning solvents on the market, I finally settled on KG1,KG2,KG12 and KG3. I do use patch out as my first solvent followed by KG1,KG12 if needed or then followed up with KG2,KG3 in that order.
This method works best for me. I have tried Bore Tech CU2+copper remover and Bore Tech Carbon remover,both work well. You need a lot of patches but they come out clean. I will use both a bronze brush and nylon ass needed. ;)