New barrel trouble

Hi, I recently installed a new barrel on my Stevens model 200. It is a 7mm chambered by one of the better gunsmiths. I used to have a McGowan barrel on the rifle and it shot great.
After installing barrel on action in started load development . Accuracy is OK but not great. The main problem I have is after shooting the brass will not resize without really forcing it into the full length sizing die. When I do this it is so tight the brass forms almost another belt on the case.
I have checked my die it works fine, it only does this on brass from this barrel
I tried both new and once fired brass
I have no sign of excessive pressure
Bolt closes on go gauge, doesn't close on no go gauge.
Does anyone have any idea what I could be doing wrong? I have about 800$ into this barrel, and don't want to send it back if I'm doing something wrong.

Barrel experts will have to weigh in, it seems the chamber is so large the brass is expanding far too much and then you are trying to squeeze it back down from way past the dies capability.

303 is bad that way but never heard anyone have it to that extreme.

Shades of the wrong chamber even. Phew,

7mm what? It could be that the brass is undersize. I've seen this on 7 mm WSM.

Sorry it's a 7mm rem mag. I'm not sure what you mean by the brass is undersized, could you please explain. I should note I had the same issue with some once fired brass and the guy that chambered the barrel said it wouldn't happen if I used new brass. All brass is nosler

Gotha...

Your chamber is tight. I have a very tight 300winmag chamber and I know exactly what you are talking about.

Your die is unable to size above the belt. Or your chamber is much tighter than the sizing die can size.

You need a body die or a "Belted Magum Collet Resizing Die" from Innovative technologies.

I'm interpiting the poster as saying that new unfired brass will chamber, but fired brass will not.
Also that his full length resizing die wont resize it enough so that it will chamber.
I'm just assuming its the same die he used with his old barrel chambered for the same cartridge.
Personaly, id be sure I'm not using the old brass, although the die should allow for doing that.
The new fired brass from the new chamber should rechamber even without resizing in my opinion.
Otherwise those who neck size only couldn't do so.
Id be first assuring myself the die was set properly, and new brass was used in a trial.
Id then be taking the gun to a different smith and have a chamber cast made then compare those dimensions with Sammi specs.

My load for 308: IMR 4895 43g, Lapua brass, shooting 168 TMK. Shoots great to 1000 yards. This is a 26" Douglas bull contour. Not the same barrel, but a great load.

Also try: 41g of Accurate 4064 with 168g SMK.

45g of IMR 4895 with Hornady AMAX.

These loads have worked great in a variety of 308 rifles I have tried with custom barrles and factory barrels.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

Gotha...

Your chamber is tight. I have a very tight 300winmag chamber and I know exactly what you are talking about.

Your die is unable to size above the belt. Or your chamber is much tighter than the sizing die can size.

You need a body die or a "Belted Magum Collet Resizing Die" from Innovative technologies.

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I don't get your reasoning.

If its a really tight chamber, the die won't have to squeeze much if anything. It might not re-size to needed dimension, not likely but possible.

If the brass comes out, it should go back in.

I am not fond of Nossler brass but I don't believe its an issue in this case (longevity yes)


The OP seems to be saying it can't squeeze down the brass without a huge distortion.

That sound like a vastly too large chamber where the brass over expands and then the re-size die is trying to stuff the over expanded brass back down.

Yeah, I agree with Yobuck's assesment.

Also, I'm never a fan of "I don't see any signs of pressure". This needs to a a big fat sticky when you log-in. Very carefully Calibrated Copper Crushers, in Very tightly measured Chambers and Barrels, by The best ballisticians, from EVERY member of SAAMI, using tightly controlled Reference lots of powder; have LONG known that Copper Crushers ARE NOT ACCURATE when used above 45,000 psi.
A reloader who uses brass that has no stated tensile strength, or known hardness spec, with primers of the same issue; can NOT stare at the brass or primer, and magically know where your pressures are, period.

From the many different rifles and cartridges we have tested with a Strain guage system, the bulk of factory brass(NOT Federal) has a tensile strength around 75,000 psi. So if a reloader "sees signs" of stretching or growth, that's because you have about met the tensile strength of the brass.... Typically around 75,000 psi.

The way to know reasonably where your pressure is, is the velocity. If your load, all but regardless of specific charge, exceeds book velocity; you exceeded book pressure.

Read the post about die length. It could also be what you are experiencing.

Re-reading this, we need to know what the loads are?

Powder and how much, primer and whose, bullet weight and how COAL was determined.

I glossed over it as OP had previous barrel and would assume it was decent load but in this case assume is bad.

I do not have trouble with the brass not chambering the brass, the problem is when I try to resize brass after shooting it. The loads I have tried have been 162 grain eldx with 69-73 grns of retumbo, loaded .015 from lands. 180 berger vld with 69 grain of retumbo.
I say I don't see any signs of pressure because I loaded in .5 grain increments until I start seeing signs of overpressure ( flattened primer, stretched brass,loose primer pockets, any noticeable extractor marks, sticky bolt lift,ect.) How do you decide where your max load is?

If I shoot any load through this rifle I cannot get brass to go into resizing die. I know I am not an expert but I have loaded my own ammo for 25 years, and have never had an issue like this.

For starters, compare the measurement of your once fired brass to the reamer print. Until that's done, everything else is just speculation without any real data.

Local 41, How did you set the head space on your new barrel?

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

For starters, compare the measurement of your once fired brass to the reamer print. Until that's done, everything else is just speculation without any real data.

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This is your starting point. Either the reamer is off or the sizing die is wrong/maybe not enough lube to fl size etc. You can run as much pressure as you want, your brass will only extend to the size of your reamer. Blowing up the gun or ruining brass life aside. If your reamer is
The correct size the brass can only expand to that point, period. Other things give out past that point

You could also have your die adjusted wrong and be forcing more brass downward, as in not bumping .002" etc but way more due to incorrect setup. The brass would flow somewhere and just below the bottom edge of your die would be the first spot. I did this once but mine crushed just below the shoulder

Headspace was set with ptg go gauge. I snugged barrel on it and the tightened the barrel nut, after this was done in put in no go Guage bolt will not close on no go Guage.
I will try to get the reamer print, but the Smith wants me to send my brass, and die to him. I'm not sure he will give me the print.

The die is not sizing the brass enough.

Either you're not setting up the die correctly or you're headspace is next to zero which will not work with belted cases.

Are you using a headspace comparator or a bump gauge when sizing ???

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Originally Posted by local41

I say I don't see any signs of pressure because I loaded in .5 grain increments until I start seeing signs of overpressure ( flattened primer, stretched brass,loose primer pockets, any noticeable extractor marks, sticky bolt lift,ect.) How do you decide where your max load is?
n

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We need to know the velocities with those charges. But if you stopped because you "saw signs" your powder is much quicker. As I said when you "see" signs, you are well above SAAMI. I think you should cast the barrel, and double check your dies.

Out of curiosity, what brass "brand" are you using? Federal is dangerously soft.

Pack up the gun, some fired cases and the die and go visit a good gunsmith.

Velocity is 2900-2910 with 180 berger 162 I don't know yet. Both loads are below max listed . Nosler brass I'm going to try some factory ammo today, this problem occurs even at starting load pressure

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Originally Posted by local41

s a loads I have tried have been 162 grain eldx with 69-73 grns of retumbo, loaded .015 from lands. 180 berger vld with 69 grain of retumbo.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by local41

Velocity is 2900-2910 with 180 berger 162 I don't know yet. Both loads are below max listed

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Yikes!!!!
So you loaded the 162's but apparently didn't chrono them? Fine enough, so the 180's.
You are roughly 2 grains below max with the 180gr. Yet you are matching Max velocities, and you didn't have any alarms going off in your head?!!

Your powder is significantly faster than current Hodgdon data. You don't have "the same" powder as they tested, so you can't use the same charges.

Grains don't tell you pressure, velocity tells you pressure. Velocity is the result of pressure pushing the bullet. Ignore all charge weights and read as many manuals as you can. Velocities are all very very close to the same. Only charges differ. Which is yet another confirmation that powder lots, differ. Just like the "Drop 10% when switching lots" warning on that powder bottle.

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Velocities are all very very close to the same. Only charges differ. Which is yet another confirmation that powder lots, differ.

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Yes, We all know that chamber dimensions, freebore, throat and bore dimensions and finishes have no effect.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

The die is not sizing the brass enough.

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He pretty much proved that in his very first post.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

Either you're not setting up the die correctly or you're headspace is next to zero which will not work with belted cases.

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Or his chamber or dies are off spec, in which case the dies may never be able to resize for proper function. Until we see some measurements of his fired cases, it's all just a guessing game.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

Are you using a headspace comparator or a bump gauge when sizing ???

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That would be a start. It would at least tell us whether the finished rounds are anywhere near capable of being chambered in a rifle chambered to spec.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Yes, We all know that chamber dimensions, freebore, throat and bore dimensions and finishes have no effect.

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Only because they might affect pressure, which is the cause of what?
But I don't agree on the need to have a chronagraph in order to obtain good safe velocity, anymore than I think we need a wind meter.
With the programs available today, we can determine the actual velocity by the ammout of elevation weve added to the scope.
Fact is velocity numbers from a chronagraph are often found to be in error by actuall shooting.
Which poses a strong argument for just picking a ballpark velocity number and confirming the actual number by shooting.
Anyway we wont know the velocity until after the bullet exits the muzzel. So in that respect, is listening to what the gun says about pressure more or less important than what a chronagraph says?
Personaly ill trust the gun, and when it speaks I'm listening.

I have the following measurements from fired case
Base of case- .526
Belt of case- .5355
Just above the belt .520
Bottom of shoulder. 490
Neck .3145 ( outside)
.284 inside
I understand the importance of checking velocity, but I feel there is more to pressure than that. If velocity was a tell all wouldn't we be able to achieve the same velocity in every barrel? What happens when my velocity is low, and I see pressure signs , do I just keep going until I get there, and assume my rifle and conditions are the same as the test lab.
Even if I were to overpressure by a long way how would brass get bigger than the chamber? I'm not trying to be a wise ass i just feel like some guys want to point out that everyone else is a fool if you don't do something their way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by local41

I have the following measurements from fired case
Base of case- .526
Belt of case- .5355
Just above the belt .520
Bottom of shoulder. 490
Neck .3145 ( outside)
.284 inside

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SAAMI minimum just above the belt is .5136 (+.002 tolerance) You're .0044 above the maximum dimension.

Http://www.precisionrifleblog.com/20...chamber-print/

does it happen with factory ammo? I had the same thing happen with my .300 win mag. not to my rifle but to my buddies he had a moose down and had to finish it off but had left his spare shells in the truck, I gave him one of my reloads and it would not chamber in his rifle. fit fine in the other 3 .300 win mag. in camp. his had a tighter chamber then the rest. later I got checking into this and found this article on Innovative technologies web site after reading this I ordered his resizing die for belted magnums and no more problems. So if you are having the problem with factory loads when resized I would say your chamber is a little over sized just at the belt or just above. Check it out nothing to lose.

I don't recommend snugging the barrel up to the go-gauge and tightening the nut because when you tighten the nut the headspace shrinks. Thus making it smaller than the go gauge. What I do is to back the barrel out a hair or snug the barrel up to a go-gauge with a piece of masking tape on the head of it, so it compensates for the shrinking when the nut is tightened. After you tighten the barrel nut, it's very important to cycle the go gauge again to make sure the headspace didn't shrink too much after tightening the nut.

If your die is not bumping the shoulder, I assume you have a headspace comparator or a bump gauge to know this. So you should send the die back and have it replaced with a good one.

Maybe all you need is just a body die to size above the belt where the FL sizing die can't reach.

You will find the problem soon, be patient and verify the basics, like the length of a fired case from base to datum and the same measurement after you run the case through the FL sizing die.

Put the old barrel back on and set the headspace the same way.
With virgin brass, shoot a couple of rounds. Measure said rounds above the belt. Resize them without changing your die setup.
Measure again above the belt. See if they will chamber after sizing. Seat a bullet without powder and primer. Check to see that they chamber in the old barrel. Reinstall the new barrel. Set the headspace as before. See if the dummy round will chamber. Report back with the results.

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Originally Posted by Zero333

I don't recommend snugging the barrel up to the go-gauge and tightening the nut because when you tighten the nut the headspace shrinks. Thus making it smaller than the go gauge. What I do is to back the barrel out a hair or snug the barrel up to a go-gauge with a piece of masking tape on the head of it, so it compensates for the shrinking when the nut is tightened. After you tighten the barrel nut, it's very important to cycle the go gauge again to make sure the headspace didn't shrink too much after tightening the nut.

If your die is not bumping the shoulder, I assume you have a headspace comparator or a bump gauge to know this. So you should send the die back and have it replaced with a good one.

Maybe all you need is just a body die to size above the belt where the FL sizing die can't reach.

You will find the problem soon, be patient and verify the basics, like the length of a fired case from base to datum and the same measurement after you run the case through the FL sizing die.

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That is not necessarily true.

With the Pencil barrel on my 111, it did just that.

The bull barrel was just the opposite, it would open up and enough so that the no go gauges was almost half or 3/4 of the bolt hand turning to closing.

Something in the combination of the weight of the barrel did not turn, thread difference and the nut was pulling the barrel forward a bit and opening up the headspace.

Not a problem, just a matter of turning in and out but in this case the in was against the go gauge (bolt them undone) and then testing both again after nut was torqued.

With no go gauge, it was per normal where the bolt would not begin to close.

I do note the OP did state he used both gauges when he did it.

It seems like the evidence being presented by the OP is being ignored by some.

He is also right that velocity is not the issue when at low levels he has the same problem.

Velocity is only an indicator of pressure when you get a sudden increase in speed over previously increase per powder amounts.

While it best to look at all, he has no signs including sticky chamber.

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Put the old barrel back on and set the headspace the same way.
With virgin brass, shoot a couple of rounds. Measure said rounds above the belt. Resize them without changing your die setup.
Measure again above the belt. See if they will chamber after sizing. Seat a bullet without powder and primer. Check to see that they chamber in the old barrel. Reinstall the new barrel. Set the headspace as before. See if the dummy round will chamber. Report back with the results.

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OP has stated he used new brass, he has stated it closes on the go gauge and will not close on the no go gauge.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Pack up the gun, some fired cases and the die and go visit a good gunsmith.

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Quote unquote, one of the good gun smiths in the area.

I am doubtfull (at least as far as chamber reaming goes) but that is what the OP posted.

I am not sure I would let him have anything at this point.

All indicators are the reamer is way out of spec, or the wrong reamer.

Not to pile onto your problem, but one reason I ordered pre done chambers are the barrel makers do that for a living.

If I was the smith, I would be asking for the barrel and or would be checking my reamer. Brass I would give him, the die no. Its sized previous 7mm just fine.

He sounds dubious to me.

Do you have access to your old barrel or another Savage 7mm Rem Mag? One of those the more information you can get before you deal with him the better.

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Originally Posted by RC20

OP has stated he used new brass, he has stated it closes on the go gauge and will not close on the no go gauge.

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Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my suggestion of putting the old barrel back on (which you obviously missed so as to make it sound like your original idea in your next post) and taking measurements compared to the new barrel. So what if the headspace gauges work. They test nothing above the belt which is where I suspect the problem lies. And as far as it goes, a gunsmith that would not share a reamer print with me after chambering a barrel for me will never see another thin dime from me. It's not the dies. It's not the headspace gauges. It's not the brass. It's not the reloading process. And it's not the velocity.

A hall of fame benchrest supposedly super guru Don Geraci chambered a 300 win mag for me a few years back and it did exactly everything you are describing. He used a dull reamer and it cut and oversize chamber. I had the barrel set back by someone competent and no more issues.

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Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my suggestion of putting the old barrel back on (which you obviously missed so as to make it sound like your original idea in your next post) and taking measurements compared to the new barrel. So what if the headspace gauges work. They test nothing above the belt which is where I suspect the problem lies. And as far as it goes, a gunsmith that would not share a reamer print with me after chambering a barrel for me will never see another thin dime from me. It's not the dies. It's not the headspace gauges. It's not the brass. It's not the reloading process. And it's not the velocity.

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My apologies it taken wrong

It sounds like he may have moved the barrel on from the original post, we need to hear back from him.

As the original barrel worked with his brass and dies and no issues while an interesting test I don't see the relevance.

Per your other posts it points to what I believe was well and its a chamber issue.

Some responders were repeatedly asking questions that he had answered.

I agree whole heartedly that the GS is probably not as good as reputed. Otherwise he would want to see the barrel. I call that convenient blindness.

One of our best questions is "what changed". As only one thing changed.......

You have an oversized chamber. If you've been rolling your own successfully for 25 years you know what you're doing. Most likely the culprit is an out of spec reamer (possibly brand - new) which could easily slip past even the most competent gunsmith, especially if the work is piled up. Since you had a reputable smith do the work, that would suggest that the setup was done correctly. It isn't rocket science. I would comply with the smith's request to see a sample case and the dies. I am sure that this smith will do his/her best to correct the situation. It's too small a world to let one like that get away.

Good luck, please tell us how it plays out.

what concerns me about the situation is the Smith is not asking for the barrel.

Brass yes, die? with the history he should be measuring his reamer and or taking a cast of the chamber.

I would be reluctant to let him have the die and as noted, not the first time there has been a problem and an objective smith would not only not rule out a reamber issue but be looking at that as first suspect.

I talked to the Smith again, he asked me to send barrel and action to him. He said he would get it figured out, he also agreed that brass was stretching excessively. One issue I still have is it will be 900+ dollars into this barrel by the time he gets it fixed. If he has to rechamber it how much does he have to cut off? Will this make it impossible to rechamber again when the throat wears out?
I feel like I paid for a premium product, I don't think I should settle for anything else than what I ordered. Do I have any ground to stand on if I tell him to keep it and refund my money?

If you specified barrel length in your order, and he has to do a setback to make it right, you're no longer getting what you ordered. He's gonna have to take some barrel length off to clean the chamber up, but you won't know how much until it's finished. You'll most likely be able to do another setback later to clean it up. I'd be pissed, and he'd be paying the shipping both ways.

I'm definitely pissed, I get the feeling he already thinks I should pay for shipping.
I think I will see how he handles it and let everyone know, good or bad. I am hoping for good, but I am sceptical at this point.

When you are getting close to depth with your finish reamer, you will inspect protrusion with the gauge. A competent smith who cares about quality will check to see if the chamber is oversize by "wiggling" the gauge. a few thousandths oversize is detectable. (It is also a good practice to throw throw the indicator back up there and check R.O.'s before you take it out of the machine. Heck it should be done a few times during the machining process anyway.) This is easy on a Savage as the case/gauge is accessible where a Remington is more difficult. I say this because when you are swamped bad things get out, but something like that is careless if it is in fact the chamber. JMHO

Recently had a barrel that would not shoot. Finally had a chamber cast made and chamber was oversize,saami specs, I would suggest that if you are having problems making a barrel shoot, that you get a chamber cast made. It can explain a lot. my2c

I think it is solidly established that the chamber is oversized.

the issue at point is trust in the gun smith and his charges and attitude. .

I would have zero trust in him as he not only can't do a chamber right, he does not test or check his work.
Add into that the paying for shipping for his screw up.

He Owes the OP a new barrel and then he can have the old one back do whatever he wants with it, he pays all shipping costs as those have been incurred already and any more are above and beyond.

New barrel needs to pass inspection .

If not, then contact chamber of commerce and file a complaint and out him on the forum and the word will spread.

Update: I sent my barreled action back to the Smith. When I called for an update he said he shot several different kinds of ammo thru it with no issues. He keeps wanting to blame my die, or brass.
His solution was to send me a different resizing die that he said works fine. Sounded a little weird to me but I was willing to give him a chance.
When I received the barreled action back there were marks around the outside of the barrel, which looks like he had it chucked up in a lathe. It is also about 1/4 inch shorter than it was. I am willing to deal with that, but the problem is the brass is still coming out of the chamber .518 it will not go into either die. I can also see the shank end of the barrel has fresh tooling marks on it, I'm positive he recut the chamber.
At this point I am going to ask for a refund. I feel as though he screwed up and won't admit it.

Yep, real scam artist. I think there is a call out section here

I have very limited experience so take this with some doubt. Sounds like a problem I had with a 7 MM Remington Mag factory barrel back around 1964 or 5. Also terrible accuracy. Kept it for years in Navy. Finally started back on it about 6 years ago. Turned out to be an oversized chamber. Found it by procedure like HOTOLDS442. Measured fired brass and found it to be very oversized. Replaced factory barrel with Benchmark and all problems gone also sub MOA 3 shot groups.