Guidance and Suggestions Requested...PLEASE

I'm having a heck of a time with my .308 Win. loads. Same gun, same bullets, same brass, same powder (different lot number), same primers- same shooter / reloader.

I was drilling single holes using 44.0 Gn. of Varget behind a Hornady 155 Grain Amax. I have a large amount (to me; 11 pounds) of Varget separated into lots except for 3 "odd" pounds.

That load doesn't seem to work well. It's even the same temperature (+/- a little) as when I developed the load 2.5 years ago.

Changes I noticed that I may not have noticed before; the primers, even at 43.4 grains of Varget, are flat. Not severely, but flat. I probably did not notice this as when I first started reloading, I admittedly did not pay much attention to things like that.

Using Lapua cases, on their 5th reloading. I am needing to trim every re-sizing (I full length resize each time). Not much, but right around a thousandth.

I note there is what Ill call a witness line, or shiny spot where the case head and body join. Does not look like an incipient separation and I noted it after the first resizing.

I am playing around with C.O.A.L right now in an effort to tweak a load that seems OK (just OK) @ 43.6 grains.

I mention all this in order to diagnose- or to allow you experienced guys to please help. My best groups now are now around .49xx / .51xx" @ 100 yards. Not bad- but I used to get significantly better.

I'm a little afraid to do it, but I'd like to go back to 44 Grains and maybe up to 44.4 or 44.5 of Varget. I'm probably worried over nothing- but I worry about pressure and I believe that I'm looking too closely / seeing things that aren't there when examining fired cases.

I did check the cases with the bent paper clip method. I don't feel a ridge but do feel the area where the head "rounds" into the case wall / body.

I've actually got myself paranoid about this stuff.

So any suggestions are appreciated! I really want to carefully go higher, but would like to be reassured that it's safe to do so. Does anything I've mentioned raise a flag to anyone? Other than the flat primers-and the fact that I have some slight "trim-to" trimming for each reloading, I'm not seeing anything jump out at me. Oh yeah- the primers are CCI 200 and also Winchester large rifle magnum. The magnum primers are not as flat as the CCI- neither primers are cratered.

Thanks all for your patience and guidance! I'm learning more but as I do, there are even more questions!

I should add- I did initial load development with this gun, (Hog Hunter, 20" medium Bbl) when I fist got it. Put 380 rounds through it and then concentrated on my .223. I was ill for almost a year and started reloading / shooting again about 6 months ago. So I've just recently began shooting / reloading for it again. I kept VERY careful notes so I'm sure of load weights, etc.)

Sorry so long!

Brian

How many rounds have you shot out of the barrel? Have you annealed the cases?

Have you checked for and or cleaned the carbon out of the chamber and the first in or so in the bore?

Possible throat erosion,how is bolt lift after firing? Flat primers and excessive brass growth sounds like hot load though.

.001 is hardly excessive trimming, especially if you're sizing to the cam-over. You could be pushing the shoulder back .001 or more when resizing and fireforming each time. I'd look at carbon build-up or the need to build another copper coating in the bore. If you're cleaning the rifle before it's telling you it needs to be cleaned, you're chasing your tail.

Ive had the same issues with Varget.
Lot to lot is usually inconsistent.
IMO.....decarbon and decopper the barrel (completely)
mix all the lot #s together thoroughly
redevelop your accuracy load.....start from scratch

Thanks all- lots to check! I can't seem to do multiple quotes, so I'll answer all the questions here on this post.

I have about 500 rounds down the tube. I DO tend to clean too much, probably. Usually every 30-50 rounds. Pretty dumb I guess.

I can't imagine throat erosion- the gun is hardly broken in. I really NEED to get a gauge to check throat depth- on my short list of things.

Bolt lift is smooth- absolutely no problems there.

I do resize to the cam-over each time. I admittedly don't know how else to do it at this point and all I have right now is a RCBS FL resizing / decapping die.

What is the best way to clean / remove carbon so I can start fresh? I have some Sweets but it's ancient and I always felt funny about that strong ammonia in the bore. I do have Kroil, Hoppes and Hoppes gel- not the best but what I've been used to. So...JB bore paste or...?

RE: the Varget. Yeah- I have two lots with a few pounds each and then some odd pounds from various lots. I posted a question about mixing lot together and some felt it OK- but one of the guys, Darkker perhaps, warned that the manufacturer blends to get a specific burn rate and that my mixing might mean trouble. Still- I'd like to use the Varget- maybe keep the pound jugs I have that match each other and sell the odd lots for another type powder.

I have not annealed the cases; they were annealed when I got them and since they are Lapua with only 5 loads on them I thought they might not need that yet (?).

LOL- seems I was doing better when I knew less- although I'm seeing that I don't know much more than when I started!

Brian

Try annealing 5-10 of your cases. A shooting buddy of mine had the exact same problem with his 6.5x284. It shot great then all of a sudden his gun grouped horrible. His gunsmith told him to buy new brass since he didn't anneal. The new brass brought his groups back. Maybe your necks with work hardened.

Double post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

What is the best way to clean / remove carbon so I can start fresh? I have some Sweets but it's ancient and I always felt funny about that strong ammonia in the bore. I do have Kroil, Hoppes and Hoppes gel- not the best but what I've been used to. So...JB bore paste or...?

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Bore Cleaning Methods and Materials
How to Clean Your Barrels with Less Effort and Better Results

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...and-materials/


I use Wipe-Out it removes carbon and copper and the best part it greatly reduces the amount of cleaning rod time in the bore.
Spare the rod and spoil the bore.

Below a frosted 1943 No.4 .303 Enfield rifle and just one shot of foam bore cleaner left in overnight.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse279b70b.jpg

Well I use 44 gr of varget behind a 168 gr VLD in my .308. Not a hot load. In fact this is a classic .308 load.

I use lapua brass and BR-2 primers.

I clean like you do. Really every range trip. Now this is my deer rifle and during the season I don't shoot it much and don't clean it at all.

throat erosion? not with that load and 500 rounds in a .308.

Carbon fouling or copper buildup? guess it is possible. I use boretech eliminator. It gets the carbon and copper without the harsh effects of products like sweets. I would give it a cleaning with a product that will let you know if it is coppered up but I doubt if that is your problem. Oh and when you clean do you use a bore guide. If you do you miss the chamber and throat. Get you a chamber brush and clean that chamber and throat.

What I would do is purchase a hornady headspace gauge. Measure your fired brass. Then set your die up to just bump that shoulder back 1 to 1.5 thousands. All you do is back that die up off the shell holder and by trial and error find that shoulder bump. Then use a lock ring to set it for that shoulder bump and don't mess with it again.

Well you are using the best brass made. I would quit trimming so often. I let mine grow until they are almost to the max length and then I don't trim them all the way back to trim length. I trim all of them at the same time where all the cases are the same length in a group.

I anneal. Every 3 firings. It does help with neck tension. But before starting to anneal I never noticed the kinds of problems you are having.

every reloader needs to know is chamber overall length. I would purchase a hornady overall length gauge and measure my overall length. realize you will have to do this with each bullet you use. Bullet shapes are different and that bullet will hit the lands at different lengths. You need this measurement especially if you are messing with cartridge overall lengths over mag length.

Another tool you need is the hornady bullet comparator. With this you can accurately measure overall length to the ogive of the bullet. Measuring overall length to the tip of the bullet is very inaccurate. The ogive is the right place to measure to.

An interesting way to find the magic seating depth is to start about 0.010 off the lands and back off 0.030 each group till you find the magic spot. At that point you can fine tune.

Talk a little about your hog hunter, Silvercrow, and any changes you've made that might effect your groups. Had the action out of the stock recently? Was the action torqued properly and tuned recently? Was the stock bedded? Could the bedding have become cracked, shrunken, damaged from over torquing the action screws? What was used to bed and to torque?
Scope, rings, mounts? Screws tight and locktited? Was it a package gun? Could scope be going south on you? Mounts become loose? Screws bottomed out on the barrel and not tight (mine was)?
Anything that might help explain why your off-the-shelf, POS gun is only able to hold SUB 1/2 MOA? :noidea:

THANKS! Texas10, M12lrs and Bigedp51- Looking into the Hornady tools and cleaning agents as we speak...write...whatever...

Texas10- LOL OK I deserved the "POS off the shelf sub-half moa" comment...but I'm...fussy (anal, OCD) and I've got targets at 100 and 200 yards that showed better, consistently. Now, all of a sudden...

About the gun- bought it in 2013, almost immediately bought a Boyds Thumbhole for it- pillar bedded using lamp-rod (BTW- members of THIS forum, awesome folks that they are, led me every step of the way, including PMs and even small parts in the mail- FREE. I love you guys!) and mounted an EGW 0 MOA 1 piece base, topped with a Nikon Buckmasters 6-18 SF Nikoplex reticle. Burris Sig Z bases- nothing changed since then. I did remove the receiver yesterday and "re-mounted" front bolt to just under 35 inch/pounds; rear to 25 inch pounds (what it liked before). I imagine sitting in the gun safe (not climate controlled) for over a year might have done something?

Admittedly, I have changed somewhat, too. I was ill for almost a year and although things are much better, I don't know if I'll get back to where I was, but am trying hard.

I have the same scope on my .223 except that one is MilDot- they are the "old style" Buckmasters and, so far, have done me well. Yep screws locktited using the lowest adhesion formula. FWIW POI is consistent judging from group centers.

Thanks again guys for your ptience and information!

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dpfelton

Try annealing 5-10 of your cases. A shooting buddy of mine had the exact same problem with his 6.5x284. It shot great then all of a sudden his gun grouped horrible. His gunsmith told him to buy new brass since he didn't anneal. The new brass brought his groups back. Maybe your necks with work hardened.

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Thanks for that info too. I know about annealing conceptually- but will have to visit some instructional videos and reading to learn exactly how to do it.

One of the things (of many, it seems) that confuse me is the case inspection, etc. MUCH different from my .223- heck I think even the FC brass that I had for the .223 I only trimmed once in 7-8 loadings...

Brian

Silvercrow1 I had to take 8 months off a few years ago and when I went back I COULD'T SHOOT FOR **** it took me a few range sessions to get back to form so don't get to over whelmed by your results.
Also if those bullets had been reloaded for a few years it can be part of the culprit, and as far as mixing your powders together in a 5 gallon pail I do all the time with imr 4895, never get the same lots and some times I can't get 8 lbs. so I buy 5 1 lb. cans and mix them all together with remaining powder from the 8 lbs. haven't had a problem YET :rolleyes:

+1 on bore tech eliminator. I use bore tech eliminator along with bore tech cu-2 copper remover. No harsh toxic oder Leave it on overnight. Its a rust inhibitor as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Bore Cleaning Methods and Materials
How to Clean Your Barrels with Less Effort and Better Results

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...and-materials/


I use Wipe-Out it removes carbon and copper and the best part it greatly reduces the amount of cleaning rod time in the bore.
Spare the rod and spoil the bore.

Below a frosted 1943 No.4 .303 Enfield rifle and just one shot of foam bore cleaner left in overnight.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...pse279b70b.jpg

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That's exactly what I like to see when cleaning copper from the barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjtfroggy

Silvercrow1 I had to take 8 months off a few years ago and when I went back I COULD'T SHOOT FOR **** it took me a few range sessions to get back to form so don't get to over whelmed by your results.
Also if those bullets had been reloaded for a few years it can be part of the culprit, and as far as mixing your powders together in a 5 gallon pail I do all the time with imr 4895, never get the same lots and some times I can't get 8 lbs. so I buy 5 1 lb. cans and mix them all together with remaining powder from the 8 lbs. haven't had a problem YET :rolleyes:

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Thanks for all that rjtfroggy- I'd bet that has something to do with it (my 'leave').

Yeah- if I had to do work-ups for each lot AND each individual pound that doesn't match...I'd be pretty "Batty" (some would say I am already..:p)

Brian

Well- I ordered the OAL gauge and tomorrow sometime I'll hit the local GS to see what they have- hopefully the 'Eliminator'...

I ended up getting the Hornady tool and a .308 and .223 case to go with it- on sale at Midway. They've been very good lately; got stiff nylon chamber / bore brushes and mops from them- swabs, etc. Fast and cheap shipping.

I looked at the Sinclair and the Hornady tools. I wonder why they don't make the end of the inner rod a sort of pointed self- tapping dealie- to go into the back of the bullet you're using? Sure you'd ruin that one bullet, but it seems more repeatable than sliding it through the case, locking the inner rod, extracting then dumping the bullet. THEN AGAIN I've never done this so what do I know...:confused:

You guys are tops- thanks!

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

I wonder why they don't make the end of the inner rod a sort of pointed self- tapping dealie- to go into the back of the bullet you're using? Sure you'd ruin that one bullet, but it seems more repeatable than sliding it through the case, locking the inner rod, extracting then dumping the bullet. THEN AGAIN I've never done this so what do I know...:confused:

You guys are tops- thanks!

Brian

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What ya do, buy a couple 4' wooden dowels, an 1/8" and 1/4" diameter should do ya. You can get them at most hardware and big box stores, Lowes, Home Depot etc. Stick the case w/bullet in the chamber, use the rod to push the bullet forward until it just touches the lands, lock it then use the dowel to push the mess out. If you're rechecking the same bullet or another back the dowel out a few inches and have at it.

Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillPa

What ya do, buy a couple 4' wooden dowels, an 1/8" and 1/4" diameter should do ya. You can get them at most hardware and big box stores, Lowes, Home Depot etc. Stick the case w/bullet in the chamber, use the rod to push the bullet forward until it just touches the lands, lock it then use the dowel to push the mess out. If you're rechecking the same bullet or another back the dowel out a few inches and have at it.

Bill

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Yep I use a cleaning rod but.a wooden dowel would be better. It takes a while to get the feeling for operating the gauge. You must make sure the case shoulder is tight against the chamber shoulder when you make.that measurement. You have to make sure the bullet is tight against the lands when you make that measurement. You have to take that measurement several times and get a repeatable dimension before you can declare success

Now there is one adjustment you can make to this measurement to be more accurate. The Hornaday case has not been fired in your chamber. If you use the Hornady headspace gauge and measure a fired case and the Hornady case and add the difference to your measurement it will be correct.

When using the Hornaday OAL tool, I've found that it helps to first use a chamber brush to clean out carbon buildup in the throat. I mounted mine on a section of an old 3 piece aluminum cleaning rod, chucked it in my electric drill, and scrub the chamber/throat. Swab some Eliminator or other chemical in the throat first. Then clean it out with carb cleaner, gun scrubber etc.

I use a blast of compressed air to blow it dry, then do my measurements. I tend to get more consistent readings that way. But still, and as some have said, it is somewhat of learned skill to get consistent measurements with that gage.

When I picked up a new 12FV for my son, before we ever fired it we measured and recorded every bullet we had as a base line, and then track throat erosion as it breaks in.

Now for the fun part, how to use your new OAL tool. This is a bit like reading the Tax Code, so grab a tall cup of coffee, your new gage, and try not to fry your noodle in the process…http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-cont...13/03/COAL.pdf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silvercrow1

Well- I ordered the OAL gauge and tomorrow sometime I'll hit the local GS to see what they have- hopefully the 'Eliminator'...

Brian

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If you can't find Eliminator pick up a bottle of Seafoam. I use the old GM T.E.C.( P/N 1050002) but the SF works just as well. Bore cleaners? One of the best is Tom Meredith's TM Solution. No ammonia, eats carbon, powder residue, copper, plastic, doesn't stink and doesn't taste too bad. :p It even eats the coating on coated rods...use SS! I also suggest before the TM or any bore cleaner use a foam, Wipe Out or Gunslick to get the worst of the stuff out. The less rod time the better.

Bill

mercury power tune works very well for carbon...almost as well as TEC.

Looks like I'll be ordering cleaning materials- neither of the LGS in my area sell anything that's mentioned. Figures..

Texas 10- THANKKS for the link- can't wait to fry the bean with this stuff!

I found that my Hornady .22 rim measuring device will accept the comparators I need- saves me about 16 bucks...

I was telling the wife about all this tonight before she turned in. Watching her face, she had a wry smile. I said "I guess this is all silly to you..." to which she replied "This stuff keeps your mind sharp. I'm thankful it's this and not building hot-rods!"

Never doubted she was a special lady...:amen:

Midway says the stuff should be here Monday- figuring I'll order the comparator and headspace tools tomorrow night- should be able to begin learning this by end of next week. THEN we'll see how long it takes me to get halfway proficient with it.

Thanks you guys- finally thinking I'm going in the right direction.

Brian

^ Ahhh, no hot rods ??? ^

I suppose brass poles are out of the question ? ;-))