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Has anyone seen this done or done it? In Ohio we are now allowed to use rifles to hunt whitetail deer with, except it must be a straight wall cartridge. I'm interested to know if you can build one from a savage action. Also what caliber would you suggest to build if possible.
It should be able to be done. Id go with something like a 45-70 or a .45 colt
It works. Might search 450bm for some details. Also one of the guys did a 444marlin striker.
I think a control feed action (early wsm models) would eliminate headspace/trim length issues.
I have the 500/375 on a push feed. Only issue is changing bullets changes headspace or trim length. YMMV
^ Why! Doesn't the 375 Headspace on the Belt? ^
I'm guessing it's a 375 Ruger base cartridge and they don't have a belt.
I have heard that the Savage action will not feed rimmed cartridges worth a hoot. Check Ohio's rules carefully to make sure it does not say it has to be an established cartridge, not a wildcat, in other words.
The 450 Marlin can be fed in a short action magazine, and uses the same head as the 300WM. It will be a shoulder thumper unless you reload. The 450 Marlin spaces off the belt so it will be easy to headspace, but a non-rimmed cartridge that is straight walled can be tricky to set up.
^^Nailed it!^^Quote:
Originally Posted by shoalwater
^ 10/4 ^ :-)
I don't think Ohio allows the 450BM
Straight walled cartridges permitted for deer hunting in Ohio (per reg's): .357 Mag, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55 Winchester, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 S&W, .450 Marlin, .454 Casull, .460 S&W, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110, and .500 S&W.
Pretty much have to use something with a belt on it in a 110 if you want a repeater. Nothing with a rim is going to feed reliably, and you need something to headspace off of. I toyed with the idea of trying to build something suitable on a Savage for a while, but the .450 Marlin was really the only viable option on the list of approved cartridges for a 110. The other option was finding an old Model 340 in .30-30 and rebarreling it to .375 Winchester, but that really didn't appeal to me as the 340 was never offered in LH. In the end I just bought myself a lever gun in .375 Winchester.
Can you explain "belt on it" I am not familiar with this
http://i1259.photobucket.com/albums/...pse0ec7b9e.jpg
500/375 not belted
7mm rem mag belted
223 not belted
Not a good pic but...
Sounds to me like you have a great excuse to buy a new gun. I see a nice new lever gun could be in your future and probably end up being cheaper than trying to build something from scratch.
I built a 450 bushmaster, off a 110 30/06. Was fairly easy , but I had to put a 308 magazine in the mag well to get it to feed to my liking. I have a few videos of the build on you tube, My videos are under Warrick county outdoors. If you have any questions let me know.
i would suggest to use a 308 family short action to start your build. It just makes things a lot easier.
Thats nice, but once again, he's building a rifle for hunting in Ohio and the BM is not on the list of approved cartridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrick
Sorry brother! I was at working a quick break making a quick reply trying to give a little help. I will read a little more next time.
I am not familiar with the 340 at all so bear with me on this. The 375 factory loads are loaded to 308 Win pressure levels, so not sure if the 340 can take those pressures. If not the 38-55 is always a safe option. Same case basically, but lower pressures. The 375 in a bolt gun would be fun. I have the old top eject model 94 Big Bore in 375. Fun cartridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFurious
As was suggested, I would look for a nice levergun. Maybe an older Marlin in 38-55. You can even, easily, get a 30-30 rebored to 375 or 38-55. One of those pushing a 250gr slug at 1800 will do the job nicely. With a Marlin you have the choice of open sights or scope.
Would they allow modifying a cartridge? I know some places allow you to shorten a cartridge to make it legal. If so you could build a 357 Maximum Rimless using 223 brass.
BW
I seriously doubt that. They will look at cartridge head stamp if they do not recognize it. Most game wardens are pretty gun/cartridge savvy.
If that's the case, they would surely be able to tell it is not a 223, being that the brass is straight walled and it has a 35 cal bullet in the end. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by handirifle
They should be able to recognize it as a 357 Maximum with the exception of the rim.
BW
OBVIOUSLY, but it also in NOT on the list of approved cartridges, as either 223 or 35 whatever. THAT was my point.
I believe 357 Maximum is second on the list. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFurious
If it needs to say "357 Maximum" on the brass, just turn the rim down.
Of course all of that is a moot point if they will not allow modified brass. Your best bet would to build a single shot on a T/C or Handi-Rifle or a lever rifle as has been described previously.
BW
They might buy that one. The MAX would be plenty of power. Not sure if the OP reloads or not, and that would be a lot of work, IF there is enough metal at the base for a safe cartridge. You would have to turn it down enough to allow for extraction as well. Most rimmed cartridges are not that thick at the base.
LOT simpler to just buy a levergun. Plenty of them out there. Get an old used Marlin in 30-30 and have JES rebore it to 38-55 or 375 Win, and be done with it.
There are plenty of rifles, including the Handi-Rifle and T/C Encore/Contender in 357, 44, 444, 45/70 etc.
If you start talking about rechambering anyway, a few of the other calibers can be easily chambered in existing single shot rifles a lot easier than rechambering a lever action. You can rechamber a single shot 357 to 357 max at home in an hour or so!
BW
Now you're talking. I forgot about the mag to max conversion. I would NOT recommend the Handi in 38-55 since they have had a terrible time with bore diameter consistency. I have owned many Handi's, still have 2 in the safe, and the 38-55 was the least accurate, seconded by the 223. The only way to make the Handi 38-55 accurate is with handloaded oversize bullets. Many then had issues with them not feeding into the chamber.
The best results have some from getting a 30-30 Handi, and having it re-bored to 375 Win or 38-55 by JES. He bores them both to 375 Win specs.
But the 357 Max is an excellent idea.
A little off topic, but interesting reading:
Reaming mag to max:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=323769.0
357 max AR:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=310800.0
BW
I am still hung up on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixonetonoffun
Changing bullets might change seating depth but all cartridges headspace off the rim for rimmed rounds, the belt for belted, the shoulder for non-belted, and the mouth for straight walled rimless. Your trim length stays the same.
^ +1 ? ^
Straight walled only huh...... So the intent is to limit rifles to handgun chamberings, correct??
The only straight walled chambered rifles I have are 44RemMag and thelittle 458Lott....
So its the Lott!
Although not in a sav, I have a 375H&H in a sav 116, So i'm sure the 45 cl in the similar case should work/feed ok....
Thats nice, but once again, he's building a rifle for hunting in Ohio and the Lott is not on the list of approved cartridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by defoxer
The 45-70 is listed as well as the 444 Marlin. Both of which are normally classified as rifle cartridges so they are not limited to handgun chamberings.
BW
If the OP does not want a new gun, I'd go the 450 Marlin, and load it down to tolerable recoil levels. Put a good recoil pad on it, load it with some Barnes 300gr TSX's at about 1800fps, and knock down anything that gets in its path. That is my deer load for my Marlin 45-70.
That load in my Marlin prints clover leafs at 100yds and recoils about like a 308.
Although untested, I still believe that the rim of a 444 Marlin can be turned down to work in a .473 bolt face. 100 rounds of modified brass would last a long time and the head stamp would meet the requirements of the state. Without the rim, there would be no feeding issues, and it should be a blast to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by handirifle
Kind of true. But to prevent the brass from stretching and grabbing the rifling on high power loads you need about .002-.003 clearance.Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
Which creates the potential of the firing pin pushing the cartridge forward instead of igniting the primer. With most bullets I have used being designed for 500 S&W the bullets change overall length to contact rifling significantly.
Not an issue for a true controlled feed. But push feed jammed to the rifling is the only way to guarantee a bang instead of a click.
I am going to stick to one bullet eventually for now. Until I come across the right deal on a controlled feed rum length action. Probably a Hawk bullet for the 505gibbs sized down to .501
I'm not really sure what you are talking about here with brass stretching forward enough grab the rifling. Most chambers I have ever had any experience with had room for the bullet to sit, long before the brass even gets close to the rifling. The bullet is normally the only thing that comes close enough to touch the rifling.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixonetonoffun
I agree that brass stretches, but I have never seen brass that stretched far enough that it was as long as the COL of a fully loaded round, even after multiple firings.
Now, without trimming your brass to the proper length, I agree that a situation can occur that the brass comes into contact with the narrowed portion of the chamber BEFORE the rifling and pinch the bullet, creating a dangerous over-pressure situation.
As to bullets changing COL that is very true. A bullet will only touch the rifling if you seat it out far enough to touch the rifling. If your chamber is cut to headspace on the case mouth, it should have proper headspace even with empty brass that is correctly processed. I would venture to say if the only way you can get your rifle to fire is to load your bullets out far enough to "jam" them into the rifling, you probably have excessive headspace.
BW
I believe this is the way I would go. I like the 444 but the 45-70 would get the job done too!
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firear...re/1895SBL.asp
lever actions are fast and fun. Great brush guns. Hunt the thick stuff for close shots.
1895 45-70 new under $600 @wm. Hard to go wrong.
BW it probably wouldn't be an issue at handgun or even 45-70 velocity. But I am closer to 458wm velocity of = weight bullets.
My Hornady basic brass runs a little soft exaggerating the stretch factor slightly. Also heavy crimping to get consistent burns and low es. All in all tons of fun.
If trimming .002-.003 caused ignition problem you have other problems that need to be solved. Most bottleneck cartridges from the factory have .002+ clearance and they headspace on the shoulder which allows the firing pin to push them forward and they seem to pop just fine. Maybe you have you pin set to short or is dragging, spring is weak, you are trimming more than you need to or there may be something else causing problems. If your brass is stretching that much you may be way over pressure which raises other safety questions when passing on the load you use. Not trying to flame just trying to explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixonetonoffun
The end result is still this thread is only for cartridges listed as legal to hunt in Ohio with and when you go to court with a ticket the judge will follow the law and a wildcat that is close to what the law allows is still not legal. "56 in a 55 may not get you a ticket but it is still breaking the law"
Why trim the 450 Marlin case at all????? All you need is the bolt head for ANY magnum cartridge, like the 300WM, it's the same size. He buys a barrel, and bolt head, and headspace tools, install barrel, set headspace, replace bolt head with magnum (.513 I think) and go shoot gun. Buy a box of factory ammo and see how he likes it, then reload to suit.
He can load 300gr loads to the 1800fps factory 45-70 levels and just get a nice push at the shoulder, and venison on the table. No guessing if it's approved, no feeding issues, no problem.