Model 11 308 sight-in issues

I just got a new model 11 in 308 for Christmas and took it to the range for the first time today. I removed a new Leupold VX2 from my Savage model 111 270 and installed on the 308, using Warne bases and rings. I bore sighted the gun by looking through the barrel at a target about 30 yards away and then adjusted the scope for the same point of impact. I was a little surprised that I needed about 60 clicks of "UP" to get the gun bore sighted.

After I fired the first shot I knew something was not right, I missed an 8"x11" sheet of paper at 50 yards. I have used this bore sight-in technique at least a dozen times and is does not fail to get with-in few inches at 50 yards.

After several failed attempts to get on paper, even having another experienced individual at the range try I was still striking out. In desperation I move to 15 yards and fired a shot offhand. To my surprise the bullet landed 6" low and 4" right of my aim.

Before we blame the scope, this same scope shoots 1.375" groups at 200 yards on my 270.

I am looking for ideas here, I did not want to believe it was the gun, I also have a model 11 223 along with the model 111 270 and they both shoot great. But this 308 is really something else, I do not have enough scope adjustment to get the gun on paper at 50 yards. The big issue is the point of impact at 50 yards is more than 8" away from the bore sight. It seems to me like I have some sort of barrel issue, could it be bent?

I will be calling Savage first thing Monday morning!!!
HELP!!!

It sounds like you know what you are doing.

I expect Savage will take it back, and, after confirming what you say is true will replace the barrel or entire rifle.

Yes, I believe Savage will make it right.

The irony here is my nephew also got a model 11 308 hunter package gun for Christmas, I decided to get the model 11 non-package gun and then add a higher end scope and mounts. Based on my other Savages I was expecting a lot. My nephews package gun shoots great, my more expensive non-package gun is a piece of crap! Not sure why I decided to pay more money.

I should also add, I started out shooting 42 grains and 43 grains of H4895 and Sierra 150 grain pro hunters. My nephew is shooting the same bullet with a light load of Varget. Even with his load my gun has the same issue.

I removed the scope tonight and went over everything, just seems like I must have a barrel issue.

well, you paid more for a better rifle. You just happened to get a bad barrel, presumably. No reflection on the company or the model.

When changing scopes from one rifle to another rifle it might be necessary to find optical center by either centering the turrets or by rolling the scope and adjusting the crosshairs to maintain the same POA. . Good luck

Robinhood,
I understand what you mean by "find optical center", but not sure what you mean by "roll the scope and adjust crosshairs to maintain the same point of impact". What choice do you have when using non-adjustable mounts, such as the Warnes? When bore sighting, the only way I know to get the cross hairs to move to the bore sight point of aim is to use the turrets. I am always anxious to learn new things, but my method of bore sighting has worked dozens of times, usually I get close enough to begin shooting @ 100 yards. In this case though I cannot get on an 8"x11" piece of paper at 50 yards.

Again my issue is the point of bullet impact, at 50 yards is at least 6" low and 5" right of the bore sight point of muzzle aim. This is far from normal and would use more turret adjustment than the VX2 has, to get on target at 50 yards. I put the VX2 back on my 270, placed the scope at optical center and got a good bore sight. I am sure a few clicks will have the 270 back on target at 100 yards. With the same scope on the 308 I only had 13 clicks of up adjustment remaining and was still hitting several inches low at 50 yards. And again the actual point of impact was 6" or more lower than the bore sight point of aim. I tried 3 different loads with 2 different powders with the same crazy results.

I called Savage Customer Service. I did not even get to fully describe my problem before the technician was emailing me a form to return the gun. I attempted to finish describing the issue and was told they will not take notes until they have my firearm. I was instructed to type up a note of my issues and get the gun to a UPS pick-up center.

Sounds like you " got one of those". You're the second poster this month, with what sounds like the same problem. Savage wanted that one back back also, no questions asked. Would be nice to know what the problem turns out to be, however we may never know? It's good that Savage is addressing the problems.

This is very frustrating, but at least Savage so far has been quick to do something about it. Hopefully in about a month I can come on here an brag about how well sight-in went and how well my 308 is shooting. I guess this will give me time to get a Monarch 3-12x42!

Well I put the VX2 back on my 270. I took the gun to the range on Sunday, bore sighted it at 50 yards. The first shot was a couple of inches high. Clicked the scope down, second shot was in the bull. Moved to 100 yards, made 2 slight scope adjustments with 3 shots then fired two shots into a .625" group. This is how bore sighting has always worked for me!

With the 308 I didn't hit an 8.5" x 11" sheet of paper from 50 yards, after 10 shots and all sorts of scope adjusting.

So you're sending it to Savage for them to evaluate?

Already there!!

Well I called Savage today to check-up on my 308. I was told the gunsmith looked at my gun and has decided to replace it. I was asked to be patient as the replacement process can take a while, but I would be receiving a new gun.

Good.

Yes, it kinda hard waiting. Meanwhile I am doing some load development with my 223 and H4895 and playing with my chronograph.

That is very good news ! :-)

Called Savage last week to check up on status. I was told my new gun was in production and should expect another couple of weeks.

Good job Savage. Has to be frustrating , but a new gun takes the pain away. Let us know next range trip.

Well going on 13 weeks now and still no gun. May be time to call and check up again.

Unreasonable

I called Savage customer service and was told it could be another 3 - 4 weeks. This will put the total at 16 - 17 weeks. I want to be really patient because I want a gun put together with a little TLC and a shooter when I finally get it, but this is getting reallty hard to swallow.

Did they tell you what was wrong with the first one?

I was told the gun needed to be replaced. I am sure the barrel was the issue as no issues were experienced with aligning the scope point of aim to the muzzle point of aim. All my problems occurred with actual bullet point of impact and muzzle point of aim. Actual bullet point of impact was 12" low and 8" right of muzzle point of aim at 50 yards. I used the technique where I looked through the barrel and compared muzzle visual point to the scope point of aim.

The brown truck dropped off my new gun this week. Brand new gun with different serial number. Gunsmith report claims gun was tested to shoot a .7" 3-shot 100 yard group with Federal 168 gr. Sierra MK BTHP. :cool:

Good to hear that you received your replacement. I'm in a similar boat as you were, Sent rifle back in December, still waiting currently. I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of my rifle!

Well I got my new rifle out this weekend. I bore sighted @ 50 yards, fired one shot and was within 2" of my point of aim. Moved to 100 yards and 3-4 clicks later was on. I then fired 15 more rounds with cleaning between every 2 shots to break the barrel in. I saw some promising grouping, now it is time to start load development.:adoration:

Awesome. Post those groups when you get them where you like them. What powder and pills are you using?

Savage has had my 10T 6.5 creedmoor a week now. After reading your wait time, am a bit worried now. Please post some range reports when you can. Want to know if it was worth the wait. I have my 10T 308 to hold me over but hope not to long. Was told up to 3 weeks.

Your descriptions and actions sound proper. I agree with others and you that there may be a barrel fault. Also the action barrel threads may be cut badly off center(?). I know enough to make impressive sounds but that is all.

I am starting with Sierra 150 gr. GK and H4895. Broke the barrel in and fire formed some brass with 40 grains. I then shot 42, 42.5 and 43 grains stopping there because I was seeing 2700 FPS. I now have a ladder test loaded for 41.7 through 43.5 in .3 grain increments. I usually shoot 2 shots at each load and take the average between the two shots as the impact point, an effort to remove the shooter from the equation. During my barrel break-in I easily shot 8 rounds @ 40 grains within about 1 inch. Hoping load development will land me at .75" or better. I also have Varget and a pound of IMR4166 to try.

I sent my new model 12 BVSS .308 back for the same reason. The waiting stinks but they are replacing the barrel.

I have a model 12 FV in.243 (gen 2) that I bought used. Had to use Burris offset rings to get it close to optical center, otherwise I was so far off that the Sightron Scope was fuzzy and I had very limited adjustment. The darn rifle is very accurate but the barrel to receiver alignment is not good.

I like Savages but this is a known quality problem for them and it's been going on for some time.

I checked with savage yesterday. Mine is currently on the range (in line anyways). Was told they are short handed at the range so will be longer. This sucks.

I completed a ladder test with 150 grain Sierra PH and H4895 last night. I shot 41.5 grains through 43.3 grains, which yielded 2625 to 2725 fps. I found a nice node from 42.6 to 43.3. Looks like I will be loading 42.9 and shooting for groups.

Well I was hopeful for encouraging groups from my gun, but I am beginning to loose faith. So far I have experienced a lot of horizontal stringing, which seems to be improved after removing the action from the accustock, reinstalling and torqueing the action bolts. I have tried H4895 and IMR4166 with 150 grain Sierra PH bullets. My best groups have been with H4895, but I still struggle to get under 1.25" 3 shot groups @ 100 yards. So far this in proving to be the least accurate gun I own. I have recently set-up (2) Remington 783's and they easily shot .75" or better @ 100 yards. I expected more from my higher end Savage but it just has not yet delivered.

Your horizontal could very easily be a seating issue.

OK I am looking for all the help I can get. By seating issue do you mean bullet jump to rifling or action in stock? It seems like the first three shots are good then scattering begins. I was waiting 2 min. between shots today for the barrel to cool.

I initially found the action screws not very tight. I removed the action, reinstalled, seated the recoil lug and then began torqueing the action screws. Started with the front screw to about 20 inch-lbs, then rear to about 15 inch-lbs, back to front to 45 inch-lbs and then rear to 45 inch-lbs. Maybe I should re-check to see if they are loose again.

It is really irritating when a cheap gun with package mounts and scope outshoots a higher end gun with Warne mounts and a $350 scope. I want to get this but am getting frustrated.

I was talking bullet seating. Also maybe you should check it with the same ammo Savage shot thru it. Could be it don't like 150gr bullets.

Yes, I also have some 165 grain Sierra GK and 150 grain Hornady SST. I am using a Lee collet die and Redding competition seating die with Lapua brass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

well, you paid more for a better rifle. You just happened to get a bad barrel, presumably. No reflection on the company or the model.

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Hmmm, at the very least it does reflect on he company if its a crappy barrel. More money just makes it worse (if that's possible). As the model is an extension of the company and the barrels are common then no.

Have you thought about going into politics?

Cancelled

I think my next move will be to eliminate the Nikon Monarch scope. I will swap the Leupold on my 270 to the 308 and try again.

I removed the Nikon scope and removed the action from the accustock. After removing oil from the aluminum rail and a closer inspection I found some sort of what appeared to be adhesive and dirt adhered to the aluminum rail directly above the front action screw. Indeed when I cleaned the action I could see evidence of contact to the rail in all areas except at the front action screw. With acetone, some 400 grit sand paper with a block I managed to removed this stuff. I reassembled the action to the stock, made sure I had good contact with the recoil lug and torqued the screws to 40 inch-lb front and 20 inch-lb rear. To minimize the number of changes I reinstalled the Nikon and will try to get to the range later this week.

I spent more time this evening looking at the action to aluminum rail fit of my gun. After placing lipstick on the aluminum rail and installing the action with 40 inch-lb on the front screw, I discovered that the action was not sitting on the bottom of the aluminum rail in the area of the front screw. Closer inspection revealed a ding on the side of the rail, which when removed enabled better contact with the rail bottom in a very, very small pad just behind front action screw. I worked on the aluminum rail bottom with 400 grit paper and a block and now have much better contact. It appears that I have a small area of contact between the bottom of the recoil lug and the bottom of the rail lug cut, this also is impeding good action to rail contact in the area of the front action screw. I may cut a .001" shim to place between the action and rail in the area of the front screw.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

Did some more reading about the accustock and discovered the action should not contact the bottom of the rail @ the front action screw. So I re-installed the action torqueing the front screw to 35 in-lbs and the rear to 25 in-lbs. I then proceeded to remove the Nikon Monarch and installed a Leupold VX2 from my 270. I loaded 4 loads in .3 grain increments of H4895 and headed to the range to shoot a quick OCW test. At 42.4 grains the gun shot a .7" 3 shot group and at 42.7 grains it shot a .5" 3 shot group. The worst group of the night was at 42.1 grains @ 1.25" and was still equal to the best group ever shot with the Nikon on the gun. Finally I used the same bases and rings with the Leupold as used with the Nikon. If not the scope the only other possibility is the glob of adhesive like material found under the action in the area of the front action screw. This could have made the gun behave as though the action were torqued to contact the rail bottom.

I reinstalled the Nikon scope headed to the range and shot 2 3-shot groups loaded at 42.7 grains. First group was 1.0" and second group was 1.25". Stringing was again horizontal, seems like the Nikon has a slight problem with holding zero.

Before I called Nikon I made several more trips to the range with the Nikon and with the Leupold and was met with disappointment. I continue to get very erratic grouping and continue to find the front action screw loose. On my last outing groups started to scatter after about 7 shots, so I checked action screw torque only to find the front screw loose from 40 in-lbs. by 1/2 turn. After tightening the front action screw back to 40 in-lbs., my next shot was 3 inches, @ 100 yards, higher than the rest. The next 3 shots settled to be about 1" high of the group. After returning home I called Savage customer service to discuss whether or not the action should bottom to the rail at the front action screw and how to keep the front action screw tight. After discussing with their "Head Gunsmith" Savage now wants the gun back again, because they claim my gun is not right. This is getting really hard to swallow, I got the gun @ Christmas and by the end of July can still not get it to shoot 1/2 as well as my other Savages.