Printable View
I purchased, new, a 12 FV in .223. It has a 9 twist barrel. My hand load with 50 grain V Max at about 3,300 fps will shoot 1.5 inches at 100 yards, and then go to five shots on a piece of paper! It will even k hole. I also shot Fiocchi 55 grain fmjs. They did not k hole, but accuracy was over two inches. I think the rifle should shoot a lot better than this! My main use for the rifle is prairie dogs with 50 to 55 grain bullets. Opinions?
What in the Deuce does this mean? 1.5" on paper then goes to 5 shots?Quote:
Originally Posted by centershot
It sounds like your reloads aren't suited to the rifle. You used fmj as a factory comparison for accuracy. That's a little like asking Stevie Wonder if it's cloudy outside.
Get some quality factory ammo and see how that shoots. Also 3300 is about max velocity, v you should never expect max velocity to be the most accurate.
centershot, welcome to the forum. i have a 223 with 9 tw barrel also and have found the 60gr vmax's and varget powder work really well with it. it may be that your rifle doesn't care for the lighter bullets. with the 9 tw i would go with the 60-69grainers and give them a try. another powder that worked for me was imr4064.
Bruce
After getting some 1-1.5" groups with 55gr good factory stuff with my new 12FV, I just went straight to reloading myself with 69gr SMK bullets and the IMR4064 powder. The last several groups I shot with that combo were all less than .490 @ 100yard off a bipod and a rear bag.
If you are going to shoot factory ammunition, give American Eagle AR-223 50gr Tipped a try.
I would not want to shoot 69 grain bullets for prairie dogs. Instead of sacrificing a chicken, I sent it back to Savage. I do believe that it should shoot 50 to 55 grain bullets. Why do ammunition companies load 35 grain bullets? What factory rifle would shoot these? I do not know what is considered a standard factory twist, but it used to be 12.
I believe Savage has 9 and 12 twist in their 223's. 35 gr is just a fast varmint bullet.Some guns like em,some don't.
Took my son and a new model 12 FV in 223 to the range Sunday, along with several boxes of American Eagle AE223GTV tipped varmint (mentioned above). These are 50 gr. Hornaday V-Max and shoot very well out of my 12 BVSS in 223. Bore sighted the scope and proceeded to break in the barrel…shoot one then clean, shoot one and clean, etc. After 10 rounds shoot 3 clean. Watched him put 3 overlapping holes in the B-eye followed by 3 in a two inch group. I figured it was just him putting too much pressure on himself to replicate that feat. But then he's shooting off the shelf ammo.
The stock is an el cheap-0 "rubbermaid" stock so I am planning on replacing it, maybe with a micro-fit stock. http://www.rifle-stocks.com/target_style's.htm
Upon inspection of the brass at home, I noticed deep gouges in the walls of the brass particularly near the head. I contacted Savage and sent it back to have the burrs removed from the chamber. Otherwise, this is a model 12 with a 26 inch varmint barrel and should shoot sub MOA quite easily.
The Model 12 FV in 223 (mine was purchased from Cabelas) is a 9 twist barrel. I believe it was a special made for Cabelas as most other stores sell the 12 FCV with bottom feed magazine, and costs about $300 more. The FV is a blind mag, center feed. I suspect 35 gr sent at warp speed will never make it to the target, turning into a puff of smoke soon as it leaves the muzzle.
I have been shooting 50, 52, 53, 55gr Hornadays, Sierra's and Noslers out of my 12 BVSS in 223. It shoots the 69 gr Noslers over IMR4320 quite well, and 69 SMK's over same or TAC, 3031 or 8208XBR. For varmints, try the 53gr V-Max, it's got a pretty decent BC.
I agree, Texas 10.I think those bullets should shoot in mine as well, not tumble. I know Savage has a good reputation for customer service.Hopefully, they will cure my problem.
I would guess its a 1:12 tw if 50's didn't stabilize. 55's should though.
My 223 Axis shot 50gr- Varmint Grenades accurately but it was a fast twist. I only pushed them to 3150.
Boringly accurate. Was therapeutic to pull it out and restore my confidence when struggling with loads for other calibers.
Forgot to mention action screw torque. Did you check and re-torque the action screws? They were loose on my 12 FV right out of the box. On the range, I had my son torque the front screw to 35-40 in. lbs, and slowly torque the rear while shooting 3 shot groups to "tune" the action. Once he found a good torque, we marked the head of the rear screw with a sharpie to monitor for any changes. I perform this "tune" on my 12 BVSS also which has a laminated stock. I doubt the plastic stock on the FV will hold a torque, but then we plan on replacing the stock anyway.
The twist is 9, I checked it with a cleaning rod. Action screws were tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by sixonetonoffun
I have the exact same rifle.
Mine will group 1.25" at 100 yards with 50 grain boat tail ballistic tips.
I can shoot 5 shot groups under a half inch (most wholes touch) at a 100 yards with nosler 55 gr varmageddon's .
I load them over 25 grains of H335.
Savage hasn't made a 1-12 twist .223 barrel for a bolt gun since 1994.
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...t-Rate-History
A 1-9 twist barrel will shoot anything from 40gr Winchester White Box to 69gr bullets. Some guys are shooting heavier 75-77gr bullets with a 1-9 barrel, but you're really on the verge of stabilization there and I would suspect those doing it have a slightly faster twist rate since button rifling isn't always exact when it comes to rate.
I have a 12 LRPV and it certainly shoots better than you described. It shoots that well at 300 yards in fact. It's done it at 400 yards at times. All rifles need to be fed the right ammo and what's right for one is not going to be right for another most of the time. It could happen of course but chances are the ammo your rifle prefers is out there somewhere even if you have to make it yourself. I can shoot Black Hills reman. ammo in mine and get great results. I really don't think you have a problem or your rifle would shoot even worse. I got my rifle with less than 10 rounds fired through it because someone was impatient with it. I bought it from a dealer that had it on consignment from the owner. When I told him how it shot a few months later he about had a cow. He thought something was wrong with it. For one thing mine had problems with nubs on the crown I believe. Once I shot it about 100 rounds it started getting more and more accurate. I thought it was accurate before but after 100 rounds I couldn't believe how accurate it was. Very few rifles shoot as well in that price range IMO and a lot of more expensive rifles won't do better. They are fantastic rifles IMO. Half the people at the local gun club use them for the 600 yard competition. According to the rangemaster they win pretty much every contest. I would have worked with that rifle a little more before sending it back to Savage. They're going to test it with high dollar ammo that they know almost always works well in that rifle and they aren't going to help you with it at all most likely. It doesn't shoot bad enough to be considered as having a problem and IMO you didn't give it a proper chance to show what it can do. But hey I saved about $300 buying a very slightly used rifle because someone thought it didn't shoot right. They were wrong and I got a great deal.
BTW your rifle is almost certainly a 1:9 twist. Savage does make some 1:7 twist rifles but mostly in the LRPV line. Mine is a 1:9 and it shoots some bullets up to 75gr but others it won't shoot above 69gr. Maybe my best group ever at 400 yards was done with 53gr but usually it doesn't do well with that round. I had the same bacn but from a different lot and it was compltely different. So lot numbers do matter with this rifle.
I shot this set of groups today with my LRPV. The distance was 100 yards. I blew the very last shot by accidentally pulling the trigger too soon. It's the flyer on the left.
http://www.a-framevideo.com/Sep%2018...20measured.jpg
also consider the fact that you may need to build up some copper in that barrel to get consistant.
I have a 12 FV, 9 twist it shoots 55 vmax with 26 gr Varget very well on PD's out to 250 yds, also shoots the Hornady 50 pack 55 gr spire points well to the same distance. It has been very accurate the 55 gr Vmax with 26 gr Varget is a .5 MOA as is a 25.5 Gr. Benchmark load with 55 or 53 gr VMAX. So sending it back to Savage is probably the right move. Good Luck
I may have benefited from some built up copper also. The more I shot my LRPV up until about 500 rounds the more accurate it got. I have shot quite a few 4" targets with it at 400 yards. I managed one group of about an inch but a group like that at that distance is mostly luck so I don't mention it that much.
Got my rifle back from Savage today. They shot Federal 77 grain premium and got a .8" group at 100 yards. I basically feel that they flipped me off! I am not going to shoot prairie dogs with 77 grain bullets. This rifle may be on the market soon. May be my one and only Savage. Very disappointed.
So you have a rifle that shoots less than MOA and you won't buy another because it wouldn't shoot FMJ's and the one varmint bullet you tried? No one can promise which bullet it will like best and I imagine that there is several bullets that the rifle will like that fall under the prairie dog spectrum. There is a wide range of bullets that is more than suitable for doggin' that you haven't scratched the surface of. You still have the Blitzkings to try, the Noslers, heavier V Maxes and the list goes on. The rifle likes the SMK's, you like the V Maxes, now keep searching until you find one that both of you like.
Those American Eagles listed above would be something to try. Not saying they are accurate in every rifle but they seem to work in a lot of them, even in 1:8 twist.
Jamie, MOA and tumbling are quite far apart.
Let us know if you intend to sell your "defective" rifle. :cool: ;) You wouldn't expect top dollar from a dog like that would you? ;)
There are 100 reasons that rifle is "only" shooting .8" groups at 100 yards. Almost all of them are fixable. The most obvious cause would be that you just need to shoot the thing a few hundred times. My LRPV got more and more accurate for the first 4 months I owned it. You should read my previous post again and look at the targets I shot and I'm very much out of practice. I haven't shot that rifle more than 100 rounds in the last 3 years and I haven't shot more than 150 yards because I had to move away from my home area and my gun club. Plus I had some health issues that are doing better now. Still I should be able to tighten up the groups you see in my previous post. That rifle is an amazingly good shooter. And again I got it from someone who thought it didn't shoot well after only shooting it about 10 times. I've seen lots and lots of rifles in my life and I know when one has barely been shot. There was no residue in the hard to clean nooks and crannies. No one cleans them perfectly and that rifle had almost no residue in it when I bought it. Don't give your rifle away. IMO it just needs to be shot a while and you need to find the right ammo for it.
Centershot,
I didn't get whether you are reloading or shooting off the shelf, but if you're looking for some excellent shooting and cheap ammo for varmints, go here; http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...manufacturer=7
and try the AE223GTV. Both my model 12's love this load and it'll shoot way under MOA most of the time. And the brass is quite good for reloading in case you're into that. Palmetto sells it cheap. I just bought 400 rounds for under $7.00 a box delivered. When I can find this at Cabelas, it's never less than $9.99 a box and more often than not, its priced at $12 a box at other stores. It's an interesting load, you can't find any reference to it on Federals website. I had to email Federal to get the specs on this ammo. BTW: its velocity is 3350 fps, shoots quite flat, and is manufactured at the Lake City plant.
If you are wanting sub 1/2 MOA accuracy on your FV, you'll probably need to replace that rubber stock, especially if you use a bipod.
Yes, you are correct but if 50 grain bullets are keyholing then it is a bullet issue not a rifle issue. Contrary to popular belief, you cannot "over stabilize" a bullet. You can spin one so fast that the centrifugal force overcomes the centripetal force and the bullets becomes a grey puff shortly after leaving the barrel. However, lots of 50 grain bullets have been shot out of 1:7 twist Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR aka AR's) without issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by centershot
Either way, you do not seem happy with it and am pretty sure you will never be, so sell it off and try another brand.
Would using JB-4 speed up this process instead of firing 500 rounds?
As others have said, you're just going to have to try different bullets in your rifle to see if it shoots. I wouldn't expect a factory rifle to instantly shoot .25 moa consistently without a lot of work. My go to load for plinking around the house with my 223 is 55gr vmax loaded with 21.5g of IMR 4198.
Depends on what process you want to speed up.Quote:
Would using JB-4 speed up this process instead of firing 500 rounds?
I am going to hold on to it and see what happens. I do, however, have another one just like it in .204. Unfired and in the box.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall_Jackson