When and how to best clean my Savage model 12?

I guess I've never placed much importance on how to really clean a modern rifle, having been taught to simply run a patch with oil through after a day of shooting, mostly 22LR. My shooting buddy seems to have been taught the same, using WD40 to clean his collection of center fire rifles. But my new Savage BVSS seems to require more frequent cleaning and attention to detail and so I've been reading a lot on various forums on how and when to clean.

My .223 exhibits copper fouling after only a few rounds and groups tend to open up after about 80 rounds without a good clean. So how and when to clean?

Some say a cold clean barrel is very unpredictable, and a warm, fouled barrel is much more predictable. I've noticed that my first two shots after a good cleaning tend to go wild before things settle down to a predictable pattern, only to open up again as the barrel get very warm.

Some say never use a bronze brush in a barrel, some say give it 40 strokes with one, and repeat 3 or 4 times as necessary until completely clean.

Some say use an expensive borescope and make it clean down to bare metal after every outing. So you can see my confusion.

For what it's worth, I have a Snap-On video borescope I use to peer into the muzzle end and the chamber. I can see a lot with it, but it won't fit down the barrel. Still, I can see copper build up quite easily. I had a look down my buddy's .308 Rem barrel he'd sent back to the factory for accuracy issues, and to the naked eye looked only mildly fouled, no copper visible. But after a few wet mops with Hopps #9 copper cleaner and let it sit for 20 minutes, his barrel was visibly and completely copper fouled. Needless to say, he is rethinking his cleaning procedures.

What do you guys have to say? Especially you bug-hole shooters, how and when do you clean?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

I have the opposite "problem". Savage 12 with target chamber and target trigger in .223.

After a thorough cleaning, first two shots cold will be in the exact same hole, then I get a small spread. It still shoots 1/2" at 100 yards for a five shot group.

Did you purchase NIB or is the rifle new only to you?
If NIB, did you follow the painful break in procedure suggested by Savage?

I wouldn't use a bronze or brass brush under any circumstances. Try nylon. What is bronze or brass? They are alloys with a very high percentage of copper. It is going to rub off against the harder steel of a bore and you are going to have copper fouling galore. Use nylon and see what is left in the bore.

I'm not a bug hole shooter but I do have a 25-06 that copper fouls VERY bad, It's a old gun (built in 1971 ) and is need of a new barrel (Which I'm working on) But after trying all kinds of copper fouling witches brews, I've settled on "Gun Slick Foaming Bore Cleaner" only thing that I have used that will take the copper out of it.. I use it on all my guns now. For my 25 I foam the barrel let it sit for 24 hours, and dry patch it, it takes me about 4 rotations of that to get it clean. On the other had my 7mm Rem Mag, (Also a REM built in the 70's) will clean up in a "Normal" cleaning procedure, Foam let it sit 15 or so min dry patch and repeat it again, and done.. If I bush the 25 at all its with a nylon brush, right after I foam the barrel.. and I don't brush the 7mm at all.
As a side note the only other "Foaming" bore cleaner I've tried has been the "Hopps" don't waste your time or money on that one for copper removal...

In the world of motorcycle forums the question from hell is "what oil should I use?". This has to be in the same ball park.

If you read the cleaning recommendations of the makers of premium barrels you will find about as much agreement as you will asking 40 guys around a bar which is the best beer.

One thing most everyone agrees on is that you should use a good bore guide. Of course if you ask them which is the best bore guide....................................well..... .......................here we go again.

Do lots of reading, try a few ideas that sound good to you, pick a procedure, pick a cleaning product (or a few) and rest assured that it works for you.

BTW I use a Lucas bore guide, a Tipton coated rod, KG-1 carbon solvent, KG-12 copper solvent, Outers gun oil, and I never use a brass brush, seldom a nylon or fiber brush, and I clean after every shooting session, usually around 30 rounds. Typically my first shot (barrel still has a very light coat of oil) is around 100fps slow and a tad low and left.

Wipe-Out Foam or Patch-Out are the best that I've ever used for powder and copper removal. I use patches and I've never needed a brush with Wipe-Out brushless bore cleaner. I keep nylon brushes on hand just in case. I clean barrels after 40 to 50 rounds or after each range session. Usually takes 2 to 3 fouler shots to settle a barrel down after cleaning.

Possum Hollow makes a simple, easy to use bore guide that fits tightly in the chamber. All the other crap I tried over the years went into the trash.

Me too.

Me too. :)

Those are some good suggestions!

Yes, the gun was new in box. I asked about breaking it in, but the small locally owned dealer who sold it to me said "just go shoot it". After about 200 rounds and several "cursory" cleanings with Hopps #9 Solvent , accuracy went out the window and I began checking everything, including if I was cleaning it properly. Thus began my "education" about how to clean and then the confusion.

I really like the idea of foaming bore cleaner as I tend towards letting the chemicals do the hard work. I'll try it tomorrow.

Bore guide was mentioned above.

It is essential to prvent the rod from scraping against the bore and for clean entry into the chamber. I cannot find one specific for my rifle and had to settle on the Tipton Universal bore guide. I had to cut down the shaft to allow my longest rod to clear the muzzle with a jag and patch, but am ok with the product. Best is to find one specific for your rifle and caliber.

Thanks, Fotheringill,

I did purchase a bore guide from Brownells. It has a slot to apply cleaning/oil to the patch after insertion, and bore large enough to get a mop or brush through. I also bought a Hopps Elite one piece coated cleaning rod, long enough to pass completely through the 26 inch SS barrel and bore guide.

The method I am currently using to clean the bore ( I'm probably not doing this right, so please feel free to comment) is to remove the action from the stock and secure it to my work bench, muzzle pointing down by clamping the recoil tang to the edge of the bench. I am being careful to not apply any torquing force to the action that might stress or bend the tang, and the clamping force is probably insufficient to cause damage anyway. In the future, I may machine a Teflon or Delrin block and use to clamp the barrel instead of using the recoil tang.

I am experimenting with putting the muzzle into a jar of cleaner and using a mop so suck cleaner into the bore (like an old fashion well pump) and let it remain full. Then, every hour or so, give it a few strokes to pump new cleaner into the bore. After an overnight soak, I give the bore about 20 stokes with a bronze brush and repeat the wet mop technique. If using a water based cleaner, I then put a bucket of hot water under the muzzle and using a mop, thoroughly rinse out the cleaner by pushing the mop out the end of the barrel into the hot water, and drawing it back into the bore, back and forth, and dry with compressed air and patches. Then use the Snap-On video borescope to peer into the chamber and muzzle ends, depending upon what i see, repeat the process, or apply bore oil using a patch.

I then replace the action back into the stock, applying downforce to the barrel as I snug up the hold down screws. I torque them using a allen T-wrench, but not a torque wrench as I don't have an inch-pound torque wrench. I try not to over tighten, aiming for 45 inch pounds.

The Scope is not removed for this process.

I'm afraid that I might in for a good, ol' fashion "woodshed whupp'n for my cleaning technique, but please feel free to comment.

Your cleaning methods suck. Cleaning a bolt gun is so easy even a cave man can do it! If you want you can use hoppie's #9 after a range session to remove the carbon only. When accuracy goes south and you know it is because of to much copper fouling, then use gunslick foaming bore cleaner or wipeout or other foams. I use gunslick because its easier to get and the hose fits in the chamber better but I don't use a bore guide ether, my bad! I haven't used a bore brush in a few years, but I do use a chamber brush. All my rifles are more accurate than I am able to shoot them ! Copper is needed in most barrels, only the user knows how much. For me the only gun I shoot enough to get to much copper fouling is my comp gun and that is around 250 +/- rounds. Two day match plus tune-up day. Of coarse my cleaning methods suck too.

I 2nd that Chukarmandoo!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpdown

Wipe-Out Foam or Patch-Out are the best that I've ever used for powder and copper removal. I use patches and I've never needed a brush with Wipe-Out brushless bore cleaner. I keep nylon brushes on hand just in case. I clean barrels after 40 to 50 rounds or after each range session. Usually takes 2 to 3 fouler shoots to settle a barrel down after cleaning.

---

+2!

Texas-

If it works for you, go with it. Personally, I would do it that way. My only suggestions on your method are to get an adjustable torque wrench and use a nylon instead of a bronze brush. There is no need to take off the stock each and every time. Use a front and rear rest, gun cleaning station, hillbilly gun station, or sandbags or whatever is handy. You will lose zero every time that stock comes off and goes back on, especially without an adjustable torque wrench.

I see a trend here….I should become a spokesperson for an insurance company…..wait, no…..OK. I get it now:beaten:

I'll throw out my bronze brushes and get a set of nylon, and try some foaming cleaners per you's guys suggestion. THANKS!

I had no idea that removing and replacing my action in the stock would throw off the Zero, but that explains why that is exactly what I am experiencing at each shooting session and cleaning cycle. (smack to forehead)

When I disassembled it yesterday after a day at the range, I paid particular attention to witness marks on the barrel and stock. I find that the barrel is only making contact with the pillars in a pencil thin area. The pillars are not machined with a radius to match the barrel contour. And there are marks on the stock that suggest uneven support. Looks like I'll be getting some experience with DIY bedding. I also found torque specs on the Savage website (35 in.Lbs). I'll sell/trade one to get an inch pound wrench. Anyone want to trade for a Snap On Propeller Nut Torque wrench?

Texas- But wait, there's more, as the infomercials state.

"...The pillars are not machined with a radius to match the barrel contour. And there are marks on the stock that suggest uneven support...." If these pillars were installed by Savage, put in a support ticket. If not, call whoever did the work. If you did it yourself, you will need to fix it or send it out.

Do you have the expertise (seriously) to do the work?

Also, IIRC, Savage gives a range for torque, i.e. 30-35 for one model and 35-40 for another. Please make sure you are looking at the right range. Also, are you in the cold part of Texas or the warm part? If the cold part, you might want to wait for the Spring to start measuring groups and such. I can tell you for sure in New York, it ain't the time for precision benchrest shooting. It was 6 degrees this morning when I left for work with a strong wind.

As to the seating- you might want to, at home, put some lipstick or nail polish on the suspected part, torque down, open it up and see where contact is actually made instead of looking for wear marks.

The factory pillars are not contoured to match the curve of the action. They are made flat for a reason. Pillars are not designed or intended to "support" the action in he stock. They are there for one reason and one reason only, that is, to prevent the action screws from compressing the stock material when torqued. If you try to contour the pillars to match the curve of the action it will likely not be a perfect match and the pillars will end up pushing the action one way to the left or right. Not good. They should be cut flat on top so that they only touch the bottom most under-side of the action.

If you want the action "supported" somehow, then you should bed the action to the stock with a full bedding of some kind of epoxy. When you do this, the bedding material can be poured deep enough to allow it to flow a bit around the tops of the pillars so there is full contact (perfectly matched to contour of the action) with the action as opposed to what you've already observed.

If you bed the action properly, you will notice the action screws turn freely then suddenly STOP when tight. If there is a gradal tightening of he screws then you should re-do it b/c that is indicative of some sort of binding or uneven pressure being applied to the action, which is exactly what you are trying to eliminate.

Thanks, Fotheringill, I'll followup with Savage.

The gun is as it came new in the box. I've not done anything I've not described previously. The Pillars, I assume, are the two metal tubes that run through the stock, and that the bolts assemble through into the action. Yea, no bearing surface at all…. But the stock is bearing in several places, unevenly I might add. And yes, torques are 30-35 in lbs.

Tuesday was very mild here, high 70's after a morning low of 40's. While shooting, groups tightened up a bit as it warmed in the afternoon. Best was .355 using 52g Nosler BTHP.

Thanks, Foxx,

It's back to bedding…if I have to….I guess.

The other thing is, you really should not have to bed a plastic stock. It is mostly intended to prevent wood fro expanding and contracting under various climate/weather conditions like temp and humidity. Plastic should not have that problem. On the other hand, if the pillars are too short to reach the action, then you may want to bed it so as to "fill the gap" between action and top of pillars. Also, if the stock flexes around the action (which I doubt) the bedding could help stiffen that part as well.

Definitely bed the rear of the recoil lug. That could be loose and causing he wear marks you see on the action. Ideally, the recoil lug will fit TIGHT against the backstop of it's pocket/recess.

"...Definitely bed the rear of the recoil lug. That could be loose and causing he wear marks you see on the action. Ideally, the recoil lug will fit TIGHT against the backstop of it's pocket/recess...."

Yep.

Quote:

---

The other thing is, you really should not have to bed a plastic stock.

---

If it is a Model 12 BVSS doesn't it have a laminate stock?

Quote:

---

I find that the barrel is only making contact with the pillars in a pencil thin area.

---

The barrel should not be making contact with the pillars at all? I think you mean the receiver.

As to cleaning-

I am a sucker for product claims.
Over the years, starting with Hoppe's #9, then going to about two dozen other brands and products, all around and dedicated for single purpose cleaning, i.e. lead or carbon or copper or other worldly metals or carbon based materials, I have reaffirmed a prior observation, including but not limited to Outer's foam cleaner, Eezox, Iosso, Shooter's Choice products, to a bunch more.

NO MATTER WHAT, ONE CAN CLEAN PER INSTRUCTIONS WITH ANY GIVEN PRODUCT, AND THEN USE ANOTHER PRODUCT ON A "WHISTLE CLEAN" ACTION AND BARREL, STUFF WILL STILL COME OUT ON THE NEW PATCH.

Anyone with ONE product? PatchOut and Accelerator to be received shortly but I am not thrilled at all with sitting at a range in 15 degree weather in a wind waiting for it to work after every five or ten shots.

I like the Shooter's Choice but it stinks up the house when cleaning inside, never mind the trash pail in the kitchen.

Today I came home with a can of Gunslick Pro foaming bore cleaner as suggested and first tried to apply it through the chamber. I had exactly the same experience with it backing up into the chamber. The tube on the can is too big to fit into the rifling, and too loose in the chamber. So I installed my chamber guide and took a 223 brass, cut the head end off, and with the neck fitting tightly into the chamber guide, and the applicator tube fitting fairly tight into the shell, used that combination to fill the barrel. Worked perfectly. Using my Snap on video borescope, I see that most of the copper was gone after only two applications with an hour wait in between. More applications will follow to get remaining copper and carbon fouling out, but looks like a winner so far. Thanks for tip, guys!

Yes, the stock is a laminate. Yes, the chamber and not the barrel is touching the stock. My bad. The wear pattern on the recoil lug stop in the stock looks pretty even, but may not be "perfect". At this point I am convinced that epoxy bedding is in my future. I will also (first) try the trick of torquing the front screw to 35 in lbs, and torque the aft screw to 20. See how it shoots, and slowly raise the rear screw torque by 5 in lb increments after each 5 shot group and see how it goes. I am fairly sure the rear screw causes the action to be forced into an unnatural or twisted condition, so this test will probably expose any problems with the seating, or I may just tune out the variations.

Thank you all so much for all your generous help and suggestions. This is indeed becoming quite the learning experience.:cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fotheringill

As to cleaning-

I am a sucker for product claims.
Over the years, starting with Hoppe's #9, then going to about two dozen other brands and products, all around and dedicated for single purpose cleaning, i.e. lead or carbon or copper or other worldly metals or carbon based materials, I have reaffirmed a prior observation, including but not limited to Outer's foam cleaner, Eezox, Iosso, Shooter's Choice products, to a bunch more.

NO MATTER WHAT, ONE CAN CLEAN PER INSTRUCTIONS WITH ANY GIVEN PRODUCT, AND THEN USE ANOTHER PRODUCT ON A "WHISTLE CLEAN" ACTION AND BARREL, STUFF WILL STILL COME OUT ON THE NEW PATCH.

Anyone with ONE product? PatchOut and Accelerator to be received shortly but I am not thrilled at all with sitting at a range in 15 degree weather in a wind waiting for it to work after every five or ten shots.

I like the Shooter's Choice but it stinks up the house when cleaning inside, never mind the trash pail in the kitchen.

---

I agree with all of this, except, why would you clean after every five to ten shots? Especially in 15 degree weather lol. I say this not disparagingly, as I used to think like this too, because that's what I had read that you should do. But now I just keep shooting, unless/until accuracy starts to suffer. I do the intensive cleaning at home where it's warm.
I think you'll like the Patch-Out and Accelerator products. That's about all I use anymore. Maybe a quick pre-clean with Hoppe's to remove gross carbon buildup before using the Patch-out. The thing that's great about the Patch-out, is that you can safely leave it in the barrel overnight. I frequently do. Its non-toxic and i do not find the smell objectionable. Infact, i like the smell. Apply the Accelerator first, liberally, with a patch or brass-cored nylon brush and a good bore guide. Leave it in the barrel; do not push it out with a clean patch. Then immediately follow up with a good dose of the Patch-Out, applied the same way. Again, leave it in the barrel for at least 15 minutes, or preferably overnight. Put the rifle in a cleaning cradle with the muzzle ever so slightly down. Put a plastic cup under the muzzle to catch the drips. Come back in the morning and push another wet patch thru the barrel, then immediately follow up with a couple of dry patches. You will be amazed at all the dark blue (copper) that comes out. Repeat if you feel it's necessary but I generally don't. I never waste time scrubbing a barrel repeatedly like I used to anymore. Just preclean lightly, put the good stuff in there and leave it alone to do its work. After its clean I push one patch saturated with Kroil thru the barrel, and one dry one, and call it good.
If you feel that you're getting hard carbon deposits in the throat area, they sell a product called Carb-out that works well too. Just don't get it on any painted or wood finishes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Texas10

Those are some good suggestions!

Yes, the gun was new in box. I asked about breaking it in, but the small locally owned dealer who sold it to me said "just go shoot it". After about 200 rounds and several "cursory" cleanings with Hopps #9 Solvent , accuracy went out the window and I began checking everything, including if I was cleaning it properly. Thus began my "education" about how to clean and then the confusion.

I really like the idea of foaming bore cleaner as I tend towards letting the chemicals do the hard work. I'll try it tomorrow.

---

Hoppe's #9 will clean powder fouling but won't touch copper at all. Their Copper Plus isn't any better.. Best solvent to remove copper is KG12.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fotheringill

Texas-

If it works for you, go with it. Personally, I would do it that way. My only suggestions on your method are to get an adjustable torque wrench and use a nylon instead of a bronze brush. There is no need to take off the stock each and every time. Use a front and rear rest, gun cleaning station, hillbilly gun station, or sandbags or whatever is handy. You will lose zero every time that stock comes off and goes back on, especially without an adjustable torque wrench.

---

+1. leave the stock alone!

Barrel-nut-

"...I agree with all of this, except, why would you clean after every five to ten shots? Especially in 15 degree weather lol. I say this not disparagingly, as I used to think like this too, because that's what I had read that you should do...."

I do it because that is what I was told to do. Since it is a balmy 19 as I write and am ready to go to the range with an absolutely clean bore (to me), I will shoot until I see group deterioration.

If you have to clean every 5 to 10 shots something is wrong with your rifle. Send it back.

Last night, I used Shooter's Choice bore cleaner, Bore-Tec carbon remover, Shooter's choice lead remover and THEN PatchOut with Accelerator. You know what? This morning, a tight patch came out clean.

You know what else? Now you are going to shoot fouling shots to put a lot of it back so the rifle shoots better. :cool:

Most likely and certainly this weekend.