6.5 Wildcat options

So I am looking to do a 6.5mm wildcat of some sort. I was looking through the wildcat offerings at Pac-Nor barrels and they have some interesting ones and some crazy ones. The one that caught my eye was 6.5-50BMG... :o Are they serious? What's the point? That means they have a reamer and at least one other person has done this right?



Anyway, my thoughts so far have been 6.5-06 or 6.5WSM. Any other 6.5's that you think might be fun to do and accurate without having to go way overbore like 6.5-50BMG.

i think kriby allen did a 6.5/338 rum its a little over bore should be fast round hunting round

i was thinking about this one and 6.5wsm for my next build but i have 2 more to complete before this one

i read an article somewhere they build a neck down 50bmg said they burned the barrel out working aload for it

6.5WSM would be fairly easy and Lee makes dies for it, making it cheap and no custom dies needed.

I am partial to my .260Aai. Had I not done this, I would have gone the 6.5x55 BJAI.

How much is performance improved with the 260AI vs. a standard 260. I have a 260 and could AI it if it was a decent increase. If not, it wouldn't really be worth the effort.

about 140-150fps w/ the 140gr. tips. I won the last match I shot w. mine at Camp butner NC in F class. Its a great round. however, its not at the same level as the 6,5wsm. You get 2940FPS w/ 43 ish grains of RL17 or 48 gr. of H4831SC.

OK, couple more questions. You mentioned that you wanted to do a 6.5x55 BJAI. I got the AI part with Ackley Improved. What is the BJ part?

Back to the 6.5WSM. It terms of making a build out of it can I use a small shank action. I know that Savage usually puts the 270WSM in a large shank action. Is this needed or is it just easier from a production standpoint? The reason I ask is that I have a 260 on a small shank action. And I could simply ream out that barrel and re use it or do I need to build off a large shank action like a 270WSM for starters?

BJ= Bob Jourdan the person that developed the AI'd Sweede.

Over on(or in your latest issue) varminthunter.org they have the newest issue online agian. There is a new 6.5WSM-based wildcat.

I went over and looked at the article at varminthunter.org. The new 6.5 looks ok but it doesn't really promise much more than the 260 already delivers. Other than the short fat powder column might provide a bit more consistency.

If I had any desire for a 6.5 it would be a 6.5 WSM (first choice) or a 6.5-06 (second choice)

The guys that first wildcatted 6.5WSM when the 300WSM first came out, first may well have been Terry at Territorial Gunsmithing, said that top quality $400. stainless barrels were getting 4-600 rounds from the 6.5 WSM before accuracy went south.
AFter research of a new barrel hardening process and seeing that my accuracy is intact and velocities increased noticably, I had the reamer made for my 6.5WSM improved. Based on the longer bodied 7WSM, moving the shoulder forward with close to the same shoulder angle.

I know a guy that has 6000 rounds in his 7WSM's with no throat errosion so its anticipated that I will never wear the 6.5 Stretch out. Just use my 6.5 WSM sizer and screw it out a tad so as not to crush the shoulder.

Should smoke 100grain bullets and do it with only 65- 70 grains of powder!

Neal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EFBell

If I had any desire for a 6.5 it would be a 6.5 WSM (first choice) or a 6.5-06 (second choice)

---

".....or a 6.5-06 (second choice)"

+1 Why XXXX with success?

uj

I wanted to make my 257 WSM on the 7MM case but at the time the only barrel I could find was based on the 300WSM. I used 270 WSM cases and it worked real slick. A 257 or a 6.5 on the 7MM wsm case would be sweet!

+1 Why XXXX with success?

With all do respect to Charles Newton ,the father of ALL high pressure cartridges and the 256 Newton,Parker Ackley and Rocky Gibbs, we could very well still be shooting black powder cartridges of not for Paul Mauser or Charles Newton. Some of our very best factory cartridges today started life as a wildcat. The current short distance benchrest calibers all started as wildcats like the 6PPC from a small prinered Russian case. Look at the awesome litter of babies the 6BR spawn then someone thought outside the box and developed the 6.5X47. It no sooner hit the circuit and the 6 X 47 Lapua was chasing after it.

Probably the worst success story for a factory cartridge that made it big was the 284 Winchester. It had basicly died except in custom mountain rifles until some of us thought to neck it down to 6.5 caliber. For a long time the 6.5X284 was one, if not the hottest ticket out there for many competition disciplines. Now the 284 Winchester has made a big comback.

Personally I never was impressed with the Short Mags because no matter what anyone or any hype said you can not beat case capacity in longer barrels and slow burning powders.

SO now I will contradict myself slightly by saying," A short stack powder column in a short barrel using faster burning powders" is getting it done and using less powder to do it.
Hence the 338 and the 6.5 stretch concept. The 338 WSM based upon the 7WSM his hammering bullets just as fast as the 338 Win Mag and I haven't a belt to play with and a much tougher case. With the barrel treatment and a slightly enlarged case capacity and a super tough case I am betting in a handgun barrel I can run at the same velocities or very close to it as my 338 Edge handgun and do it with 20-25 grains less powder!

Neal

I appreciate everyone's comments. Hammer and Bell, this is some good stuff here. Thanks for the info. If I am not misreading your comments the 300WSM has a slightly shorter case than the 7WSM? So a 6.5 based on the 300WSM would have a slightly smaller case capacity than the 7WSM?

When you read articles or posts about a 6.5WSM is that based on the 300WSM or the 7WSM? Or something completely different?

I know the first wildcat 6.5 WSM came from the 300WSM case. Actually like anything else one never knows until you speak with the actual designer of a cartridge and then speak with a reamer maker when a specific reamer was made and what case it was based on.

Yes the 7WSM case has the shoulder forward further than the 300WSM. I moved the shoulder further forward on the 338 WSM (Stretch) in hopes of getting 340 Weatherby ballistics or better. Just seemed natural having read an article on the 6.5 Rum some years ago to make my actual reamer a 6.5 Stretch with interchangeable pilots and then run a 338 Win Mag neck and throater in and make the 338 Stretch.

Benchmark barrels has my reamers currently

Neal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 358Hammer

The guys that first wildcatted 6.5WSM when the 300WSM first came out, first may well have been Terry at Territorial Gunsmithing, said that top quality $400. stainless barrels were getting 4-600 rounds from the 6.5 WSM before accuracy went south.


I know a guy that has 6000 rounds in his 7WSM's with no throat errosion so its anticipated that I will never wear the 6.5 Stretch out. Just use my 6.5 WSM sizer and screw it out a tad so as not to crush the shoulder.

Should smoke 100grain bullets and do it with only 65- 70 grains of powder!

Neal

---

OK, for the sake of argument we will call this critter a 6.5 Stretch. This is starting to pique my interest a bit. Now, if I am reading you above comments correctly and you didn't have a typo. The 6.5WSM based on the 300WSM is getting four to six hundred rounds before accuracy suffers. Whereas the 7WSM was getting six thousand plus. I looked at 6mmbr.com and they are listing the case dimensions difference between the 300 WSM and the 7 WSM as .0378" difference. Is that small of a difference really going to make that big of a difference in barrel life?

There is a following out there in the long gun world in which velocity is what it is all about. When one combines bearing surface (length of bullet) with vary large doses of powder such as one using a 300 RUM case one gets abrasive destruction from the amount of powder burning the barrel steel (throat)plus the long bearing surface of a long for caliber bullet. This concept sometimes doubles or triples the amount of wear (heat) in a barrel.
I ran across :
Ferratic Nitride: This is the most advanced firearms finish we offer. Nitride offers exceptional wear resistance, excellent corrosion resistance and a uniform black color. This finish treats both the inside and outside of all parts of the rifle made of ferrous metal. Nitride will offer the benefits of a chrome lined bore without the disadvantages. As this finish is not a plating, but a heat treatment process, it actually changes the surface of the steel and preserves the finish characteristics (lapped finish) of the bore and can not flake off. Nitride will result in a surface hardness of nearly 70 Rockwell C scale, meaning that you can run a file across it and it will not scratch. Nitride is self-lubricating, eliminating the need to add oil to your firearm. This finish can be top-coated (with some surface prep) with DuraCoat or Film Transfer, allowing a variety of colors

I am currently testing my first barrel which is a Savage 338 Win Mag, hand lapped by Benchmark barrels and it has the super hard treatment. AT 70R hardness a file,coal chisel nor my brand spanky new file will not scratch the surface of that barrel now. Using the same load in that barrel (loaded round) after the treatment I instantly gained 100fps in velocity. I added 3 more grains of powder and achieved 180fps velocity or 3000 fps from my 17" pistol barrel and 200 grain Accubonds. I have sat on the 6.5 stretch concept for some time now because as a hunter and practical person I really did not think 400 rounds was a thrifty choice of cartridges. Now with this process and 3 years of testing by the guy who transsended the tooling industry and applied the concept into barrels, they have yet to wear any barrel out in 3 years and over 100 barrels treated. His personal 22" 30-06 barrel is shooting 208gr Amax bullets at 2800fps and has been doing it for several years.

SO the concept is a viable reality based strictly on the Nitide treatment and the fact that I can use less of a faster burning powder than those using the huge RUM case. The Rum case must take giant doses of very slow burning lowders which does not work for me in my short handgun length barrels. Varget-Rel 17 does give me exceptional clean burning velocities in 17-19 inch handgun barrels though.

Neal

OK, now I am getting the picture. It's the barrel, or rather the Nitride finish to the barrel that makes the difference, not the case length.



Next question, could I put a WSM barrel on a regular small shank action or would I need a large shank action to accommodate the larger case diameter?

I am currently shooting two small shank barrels with WSM cases. The rest of the manufacturing world (production) all use one shank size which is roughly the same size as the WSM case. That includes the RUM cases as well.

Any competent smith can open up a small shank action to a large shank if you wish. The action O.D. is the same.

Neal

Neal, you have been more than helpful. I think I will be buying a new barrel shortly. I will probably move my 260 Rem barrel to my kids gun and I will get a 6.5 WSM, however, the 6.5 stretch also sounds promising. And it also sounds like the benchmark barrel with the nitride finish is also the ticket.

Looks like that will be my next project.

Thanks a million of all the info.

who and where can you get this treatment done to your barrel and what is the cost?
can it be done to stainless as well as the steel barrels?

Thought I might add a slight informational here.

Seems to be a lot of interest still in the 6.5 WSM. To be truthful I have had a lot of interest but never took the plunge because I did not like spending the money for a barrel with a short life. Then I ran across the pheratic Nitite treatment and bells went off. I tried, another tried and yet another tried and shazam. No loss of accuracy and I gained 100fps from my 19" handgun barrel. Others have gained 2-300fps velocity from there longer barrels. One guy why was eating bullets (not Me) from the barrel being 36" long fast twist 7 (.284) at a velocity no one will believe so I won't post it. He did stop destroying bullets though.

If you open up your Barnes reloading books and turn to the 270 WSM. Check out the velocities and barrel length. Don't tell my cardiologist that I can get those velocities with my 19" Benchmark barrel! and a really hard self lubricating finish.

Just for a real heart thumping good time, load some 85 gr Sierra varmint bullets! I wish I had varmints here. I will betcha a rockchuck or coyote and even those nasty bull prairy dogs that Hammer gets into would really make one smike when hit by an 85 or 100 grain bullet at starting at 3500fps.

Neal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by okie2

who and where can you get this treatment done to your barrel and what is the cost?
can it be done to stainless as well as the steel barrels?

---

I have done a little research on the net about this stuff. I was going to ship a barrel off but ended up getting a new job and moving and that ran the gun stash money a little low. I don't know exactly what the business name is but one of the names that keeps popping up in all the research I have done was Joel Kendrick. Do some search around nitride barrel finish and that name and you will surely come up with some contact info.

I believe the cost is somewhere in the $100 range if you can get it in with another batch of stuff that is being treated. If you are in a hurry and just want it done I think the cost is somewhere in the $350 range. I was willing to wait.

The things that you must keep in mind is that once the barrel is hardened that's where it will stay. It will not change afterward. So another limiting factor for me was that I would have to get a new barrel, get all the machine work done on it, install it, break it in, remove it, ship it off, wait for it to come back and then re-install it. I guess that's not too much a price to pay for what you get out of it but it's definitely a consideration.

The things that you must keep in mind is that once the barrel is hardened that's where it will stay. It will not change afterward. So another limiting factor for me was that I would have to get a new barrel, get all the machine work done on it, install it, break it in, remove it, ship it off, wait for it to come back and then re-install it. I guess that's not too much a price to pay for what you get out of it but it's definitely a consideration.

The above statement is not exactly true. As anyone who follows Long Range shooting can say, Joel Kendrick is one of the top shooters in the world. Does anyone know how long he has been working and promoting the Japanese company called MMI in Arkansas?

Many Many years ago family relations split from the original H&M Nitriding business and started up their own business. For whatever reason they sold out to the Japanese.

I have done the nitriding both ways. Shot barrel and never been shot barrel. If you wish to make sure a barrel shoots prior to the hard process then it is a good idea to make sure prior to spending the extra money. If you trust your barrel maker as I do then just have the treatment and enjoy.

I have factory barrels that have been cut and crown Having been shot 1 to several hundred times. As long as the checking and cracking haven't started I think the process is a good investment.

The #1 difference in the Nitriding process that I can see is the finish. One and only one company that I see and have been told hand polishes somewhere during the process. The finish on my barrels reminds me of a 3-$400. blueing job. The other guys do not hand polish.

SInce we a speaking on a Savage website I am going to presume that others on here are like me. Pretty easy to change a barrel regardless. I actually have more than one barrel in the same caliber. SO during that wait of a couple weeks for the hardening process, I am not at a lose for something to shoot.
Phone: 9am - 6pm M-F (EST) 1-740-363-8437 Where I send my barrels!



Neal

I also have a 6.5 in a wildcat it is the 256Newton aka 6.5x06 it shoots like a house of fire, loves 120gr bullets turns white tails inside out. It is a 30-06 case necked down to 6.5 works very well.

I got the AI part with Ackley Improved. What is the BJ part?

Bob Jourdan Ackley Improved. Ackley didn't do the 6.5x55 AI but Bob Jourdan did- writer for a gun mag.