Problem mounting rail to 110 flat back due to twisted action- permanently bed?

I recently picked up an old Savage 110 flat back in .270, and I somehow did not realize how twisted the back of the action was until I tried to mount an EGW one-piece 20 MOA rail (attached loosely with two front screws in picture below). The back is so twisted that I could not even get the rear screws all the way in. I assume that I will need to bed the rail (I've never done this, but I know there are posts about how to do it). My main question is: How do I secure it? Both front screws seem to fit fine. I don't mind permanently attaching the rail (unless anyone has a reason not to). Do I bed it and not use any release agent, securing just the front with screws?

My goal for the rifle in the near term is to be a hunting rifle, but I bought it with the intention of changing calibers and stocks down the road and getting into practical rifle/long distance (>600 yards). This is my first post, so if I messed something up, please let me know. Thanks for the help.
http://i.imgur.com/gMBXtafl.jpg

I think you may have bigger issues than just making the base fit. Have you shot the rifle yet? How smoothly does the bolt cycle?

Without trying to straighten the action, I wonder if some Burris Sig Zee rings mounted in a 2pc fashion would allow you to straighten the scope to the bore enough to get it straight.

However with the action twisted like that, I am betting that it doesn't sit in the stock properly at all, and when the bolt is engaged it may not be placing the lugs properly on action's bolt ramps, and for that matter the barrel could be sitting crooked to the rest of the action.

Based off of the picture there is a heck of a slant going on there and that is going to transpose in the scope, without getting the action straightened I think you are going to end up chasing your tail with issues. Sometimes they can be straightened and sometimes not.

If you want shoot me a PM and we can chat about it in a little greater detail if you decide to go that way. I'll help with info however I can.

I hate to be so casual but I would try to straighten the action. I read some where on this forum or another that it was not that difficult. You may want to do a little research first and be careful.

Yup, straighten. The more I think on it, it's the only solution.

Look closer...there's more to it than just a twist. Looks like the rear deck is severly out of square. Although I think it can be salvaged, there are better specimins out there to build from.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

I think you may have bigger issues than just making the base fit. Have you shot the rifle yet? How smoothly does the bolt cycle?

Without trying to straighten the action, I wonder if some Burris Sig Zee rings mounted in a 2pc fashion would allow you to straighten the scope to the bore enough to get it straight.

However with the action twisted like that, I am betting that it doesn't sit in the stock properly at all, and when the bolt is engaged it may not be placing the lugs properly on action's bolt ramps, and for that matter the barrel could be sitting crooked to the rest of the action.

Based off of the picture there is a heck of a slant going on there and that is going to transpose in the scope, without getting the action straightened I think you are going to end up chasing your tail with issues. Sometimes they can be straightened and sometimes not.

If you want shoot me a PM and we can chat about it in a little greater detail if you decide to go that way. I'll help with info however I can.

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I think the bolt cycles reasonably smoothly, but I don't have any point of comparison, as it's my first Savage and first non-.22 bolt action.

It seems to fit in the stock fine, but I'm not sure what to look for (I've removed the stock and didn't find anything that seemed obviously off). I have not yet shot it, though the gentleman I bought it from said it shot fine in the 20 or so rounds he put through it. I'm obviously questioning what he told me. I watched it cycle factory ammo fine, but one of his handloads hung up.

I am wary about throwing good money after bad. I am not emotionally invested in the rifle, which I picked up for $200. I'm also having trouble finding information about how to get an action straightened and ballpark ideas for the cost. I'll follow up with a PM, but for anyone who might have a similar issue, where would be a good place to start looking?

Thanks for everyone's help.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Look closer...there's more to it than just a twist. Looks like the rear deck is severly out of square. Although I think it can be salvaged, there are better specimins out there to build from.

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I sure the heck haven't worked on as many Savage rifles as you, but that's the first I've seen one with stamping on the rear of the bridge, the "F 395". I might be wrong, but have a feeling that one was made while I was still in middle school in the late 50's-early 60s.

Bill

If memory serves, take a heavy wood shaft, insert it into the opening for the bolt and extend into the opening for the mag well. Move dowel to the back of the action and apply torque. You should be able to use the scope base as a guide. The gentleman said that it required less torque than you might think. I have no idea if this works or not, but it is what I read.

You will need to remove action from stock and immobilize the front of the action.

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Originally Posted by BillPa

I sure the heck haven't worked on as many Savage rifles as you, but that's the first I've seen one with stamping on the rear of the bridge, the "F 395". I might be wrong, but have a feeling that one was made while I was still in middle school in the late 50's-early 60s.

Bill

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Bill, I'm pretty sure you are correct. The serial is A633xxx, and the barrel is stamped Savage Model 110D Series H.

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Originally Posted by olddav

If memory serves, take a heavy wood shaft, insert it into the opening for the bolt and extend into the opening for the mag well. Move dowel to the back of the action and apply torque. You should be able to use the scope base as a guide. The gentleman said that it required less torque than you might think. I have no idea if this works or not, but it is what I read.

You will need to remove action from stock and immobilize the front of the action.

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olddav, I'm not sure I follow. Is the torque applied in a clockwise motion looking down the barrel from the action in an effort to flatten the top of the rear? I would need a rectangular shaft, correct?

Did anyone notice the flat on the bridge is at a greater angle than the lug races? Look at the difference in the amount of metal from the top of the lug races to the flat.

http://i.imgur.com/gMBXtafl.jpg

I could twist it so the bridge is square in a few minutes, but the bolt would go through the action like a corkscrew!:p

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Did anyone notice the flat on the bridge is at a greater angle than the lug races? Look at the difference in the amount of metal from the top of the lug races to the flat.

I could twist it so the bridge is square in a few minutes, but the bolt would go through the action like a corkscrew!:p

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Sorry for the ignorant question, but how bad would that be? What do you think the end result would be if I could straighten it so that the bridge is level?

I also noticed the thin vertical wall on the right and the much thicker, shorter, and curved wall on the left. I know nothing of how these were manufactured, but it almost seems like the lug races were cut/formed after the angle ended up in the bridge; otherwise, wouldn't the angles that you noticed be similar? Thanks for your interest and help!

You have three options as I see it.
One is have a gun smith look at it and advise.
Two is try to straighten it yourself.
Three install sights and abandon the idea of mounting a scope.
The question that comes to my mind, is it useful as it is? If the action is not useful as it is today then please select from option one or two.
There may be more problems than anyone can see with just the one angle provided and even with more pictures problems may still remain undetected. Only you or someone who can put their hands on the action has any hope of spotting any additional problems. Take your best guess and remember, "Only you will suffer if you guess wrong".

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Originally Posted by notpu

Sorry for the ignorant question, but how bad would that be? What do you think the end result would be if I could straighten it so that the bridge is level?

I also noticed the thin vertical wall on the right and the much thicker, shorter, and curved wall on the left. I know nothing of how these were manufactured, but it almost seems like the lug races were cut/formed after the angle ended up in the bridge; otherwise, wouldn't the angles that you noticed be similar? Thanks for your interest and help!

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If it was machined before or after the lug races were broached I don't know, but my best guess the bridge was cut flat using the "looks good" approach after a few shots of Jack Daniels. :p

If you look at the right side of the bridge the flat machined for bolt release clearance and the lug races you'll see they're parallel to each other and the best I can tell from your pic the races appear to be straight.

One other question, do the holes for the mount screws line up now? If the holes line up the best you can do, bed the the action to the mount otherwise hang it on the wall or sell it to someone you don't like.

Bill

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Originally Posted by BillPa

If it was machined before or after the lug races were broached I don't know, but my best guess the bridge was cut flat using the "looks good" approach after a few shots of Jack Daniels. :p

If you look at the right side of the bridge the flat machined for bolt release clearance and the lug races you'll see they're parallel to each other and the best I can tell from your pic the races appear to be straight.

One other question, do the holes for the mount screws line up now? If the holes line up the best you can do, bed the the action to the mount otherwise hang it on the wall or sell it to someone you don't like.

Bill

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As I mentioned in my original post, the back is at too great of an angle to even get the rear screws all the way in. Furthermore, the four holes do not line up with the barrel. I think the front two screws may be lined up close enough, which is why I asked it if could make sense to permanently bed the base, using screws only in the front. I don't know if that would be strong enough, and I'm not sure what products could be best for it.

It seems that there's a lack of consensus regarding whether the action is actually twisted, necessitating that I twist it back, or simply cut poorly, necessitating making the best of what's there. Could twisting the bridge level make things worse?

notpu
The action is twisted!
I would have the action repaired (aligned) and use all the screws for the scope base.
There comes a point where creativity with a firearm is not wise, and I think we are there.

I'm wondering if the action screws are aligned, can you install both the front and back action screws?
I've been tring to resist but I can't help myself, would you please remove the action and post more pics of the actions?

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Originally Posted by olddav

notpu
The action is twisted!
I would have the action repaired (aligned) and use all the screws for the scope base.
There comes a point where creativity with a firearm is not wise, and I think we are there.

I'm wondering if the action screws are aligned, can you install both the front and back action screws?
I've been tring to resist but I can't help myself, would you please remove the action and post more pics of the actions?

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Sure, I'll post some tonight. It seems to fit fine in the stock. Are there any particular angles that would be most helpful?

I ended up taking more pictures while the light was decent, and I've included two others from when I had the rail on it. Let me know if other angles would be helpful. I've also scaled these images down a lot, so let me know if larger (or smaller) images would be useful. Thanks for everyone's continued help and interest!
http://i.imgur.com/sxigd8P.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0mWSF5F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9wmORwj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tknig0m.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/AkigvDm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pD2bDO4.jpg

Based off the pics I am starting to agree with Billpa and think that this is more of a bad milling job rather than a twist, or at least a combo of both. The action screw hole look to be correct or at least a lot closer than the rear bridge is.

It looks like your 1pc base is sitting darn close to parallel with the long axis of the rifle. If the action screw holes are indeed straight then I would say either milling the rear bridge flat and then putting shims (or bedding) the rear of the base would be your best option, or bedding as is and watching it like a hawk for awhile. Either way I would plan on using Burris Sig Zee rings so you can get your scope aligned properly for sure.

Install the action screws and see if they line up or not.

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Originally Posted by olddav

Install the action screws and see if they line up or not.

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Sorry for being slow here, but are you telling me to install the action screws while the action is out of the stock and seeing how they line up?

Fred pointed out the flaw in his post. Notice that the bolt raceway appears to be parallel with the tang and the machining marks on the back end. Only the top is messed up. I wouldn't straighten it so the top is straight, I think you would twist the bolt raceways

You might be able to mill the top to make it parallel. Looks like excess meat on the right side anyway :)

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Originally Posted by notpu

Sorry for being slow here, but are you telling me to install the action screws while the action is out of the stock and seeing how they line up?

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Yup, that is a good way to visually check how straight the screw holes are in the action bottom. If one screw is really leaning then they are off as well.

Yes, install acton screws into the action outside of the stock. If they line up then you can't attempt to straighten the action.

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Originally Posted by olddav

Yes, install acton screws into the action outside of the stock. If they line up then you can't attempt to straighten the action.

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Let me know if I should measure this differently, but the action screws seem to line up pretty well with the barrel.
http://i.imgur.com/anHsyKa.jpg
The scope holes seem better lined up than I realized, but the angle makes it difficult to get the rear screws in.
http://i.imgur.com/JGN5yWY.jpg

OK, I yield to those who say it is no twisted and have no solutions for this problem.
Frankly it still looks twisted to me but if the action screws are in line with the barrel then there no way the action is twisted.
Sorry to have wasted your time.

It no longer looks twisted to me, either. If the bolt travels smoothly through the rails and it mounts to the stock as well as it seems to do so, then I would say as someone else already has, that the top is not machined properly. It all comes down to finding a way to grind/mill the top surface so that a scope can be mounted square and level to the bore.

If it were me, not having access to a mill, I would grind it as close to level as possible then use JB weld or Devcon 10110 to not just bed, but permanently mount a one piece base to the action then use Burris Signature Zee rings hoping the shims will make the scope straight. you might have to drill and tap new screw holes so they are aligned perpendicular to the top after leveling it. I think I would assume the front screw holes are aligned correctly, mount one piece rail with the front screws, then use the rear screw holes on the mount as a "gig" to determine rear screw spacing. Don't worry if the rear holes are sloppy, just drill a place for them and use the Devcon to anchor the screws and to fill any sloppiness.

I say all of that because I doubt the cost of dong it "less crudely" is too great. I'd rather toss it and start with a new receiver than spend a lot of money on it. When you're done, it will either work or it won't. It is what it is. :)

I recall a famous gunsmith saying that the front does all the hard work and is the only part that needs to be strong. I also recall that only the front is heat treated. The top back could be milled or ground without harming anything, except the resale value, unless the work was done very very well.

The challenge will be to find someone with a mill to do it for free or cheap.

Grinding it would work too, as of course that is how it got to be in this condition in the first place. Go slow, check often, and finish by hand.

Well, the action may be twisted a tad from the heat treating process but if it is it ain't much. I use these to check'm.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2eyhuu9.jpg

The shortie is for the front one in the ring. They allow me not only to check they're in alignment but also if they're drilled and taped straight side to side, front to back.

They also come in handy when I (always) bed an action to a mount or mounts.

But back to our regular scheduled programming.....

The bridge is fubared, a one eyed blind man can see it. The only hope (read above), bed the bridge to the mount and use whatever length screws needed to secure it. Brownells has gaggles of them.

Bill

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Originally Posted by foxx

It no longer looks twisted to me, either. If the bolt travels smoothly through the rails and it mounts to the stock as well as it seems to do so, then I would say as someone else already has, that the top is not machined properly. It all comes down to finding a way to grind/mill the top surface so that a scope can be mounted square and level to the bore.

If it were me, not having access to a mill, I would grind it as close to level as possible then use JB weld or Devcon 10110 to not just bed, but permanently mount a one piece base to the action then use Burris Signature Zee rings hoping the shims will make the scope straight. you might have to drill and tap new screw holes so they are aligned perpendicular to the top after leveling it. I think I would assume the front screw holes are aligned correctly, mount one piece rail with the front screws, then use the rear screw holes on the mount as a "gig" to determine rear screw spacing. Don't worry if the rear holes are sloppy, just drill a place for them and use the Devcon to anchor the screws and to fill any sloppiness.

I say all of that because I doubt the cost of dong it "less crudely" is too great. I'd rather toss it and start with a new receiver than spend a lot of money on it. When you're done, it will either work or it won't. It is what it is. :)

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The front seems to lay flat as is, leading me to believe the high side of the rear is the correct height. I'm leaning towards using Devcon 10110 to make the rear level with the high side of the rear.

With the rear at such an angle, I'd question my ability to drill and tap new screw holes in the right place before bedding. It also seems very likely that the new screw holes would overlap with the existing holes. Would it work to permanently bed the base with Devcon 10110 using the front screws, then drill and tap into the Devcon? Would I even need the rear screws?

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Originally Posted by olddav

OK, I yield to those who say it is no twisted and have no solutions for this problem.
Frankly it still looks twisted to me but if the action screws are in line with the barrel then there no way the action is twisted.
Sorry to have wasted your time.

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Olddav, I really appreciate your time and your thoughts. Definitely not a waste of time at all!

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Originally Posted by BillPa

Well, the action may be twisted a tad from the heat treating process but if it is it ain't much. I use these to check'm.
http://i47.tinypic.com/2eyhuu9.jpg

The shortie is for the front one in the ring. They allow me not only to check they're in alignment but also if they're drilled and taped straight side to side, front to back.

They also come in handy when I (always) bed an action to a mount or mounts.

But back to our regular scheduled programming.....

The bridge is fubared, a one eyed blind man can see it. The only hope (read above), bed the bridge to the mount and use whatever length screws needed to secure it. Brownells has gaggles of them.

Bill

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Thanks. What are the pictures of, and do you have a link? They seem very helpful.

If front is high and level with the high side of the rear I would mount it with the two front screws and drill two sloppy holes in the rear knowing they will overlap the existing holes that are crooked. Just as you said. Make them bigger than your screws. Now test to see that the screws fit into the holes in the receiver . If all looks good remove the mount. Scuff up the surface of both and add good amount of Devon and then while still soft replace mount and install front screws as normal. Finally push rear crews into the d evcon. My objective is to avoid trying to make a good hole over the pre existing hole and try to tap. Instead just press the screw into the epoxy and let it bond to the screws. Bond the whole thing to the top of the action. Smear devcon all around it and when its hard clean it up with a dremel.

Like I said I am not talented enough to do it right. And I would just want to make it functional for cheap. I think this would work.

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Originally Posted by notpu

Thanks. What are the pictures of, and do you have a link? They seem very helpful.

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They're studs threaded to 6-48. They're turned in to the mount screw holes to check they're alignment with a steel rule and see if they're drilled/taped straight.

I also use them when bedding mounts.

Link? No, I made'm

Bill

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Originally Posted by BillPa

They're studs threaded to 6-48. They're turned in to the mount screw holes to check they're alignment with a steel rule and see if they're drilled/taped straight.

I also use them when bedding mounts.

Link? No, I made'm

Bill

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You made them? That's awesome! Thanks again for your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

If front is high and level with the high side of the rear I would mount it with the two front screws and drill two sloppy holes in the rear knowing they will overlap the existing holes that are crooked. Just as you said. Make them bigger than your screws. Now test to see that the screws fit into the holes in the receiver . If all looks good remove the mount. Scuff up the surface of both and add good amount of Devon and then while still soft replace mount and install front screws as normal. Finally push rear crews into the d evcon. My objective is to avoid trying to make a good hole over the pre existing hole and try to tap. Instead just press the screw into the epoxy and let it bond to the screws. Bond the whole thing to the top of the action. Smear devcon all around it and when its hard clean it up with a dremel.

Like I said I am not talented enough to do it right. And I would just want to make it functional for cheap. I think this would work.

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That makes sense. Thanks!

The only thing to foxx's post, you may want to build a dam using clay, plumber's putty or Play-Doe around the mount-action to keep the Devcon PS , JB or JB-Quick were it belongs.

Bill

Also, VERY IMPORTANT! Make sure you plug the bottom of the holes for the mount screws if they protrude thru the action (they probably do). You don't want any epoxy getting into the action. If it were me, I'd lube the heck out of the inside of the action and then pack the underside full of putty so no epoxy can get in there.

The only way to check it for twist is to use a raceway gauge. Then check it for a bow using a threaded mandrel and a floating mandrel. If it is truly just the rear bridge out of whack, I would mill it flat and add the appropriate shim. If the holes were off for the scope bases, I would simply relocate them. If the action screw holes were off, on top of everything else, I would dedicate this action to a fireform gun....and find a good action to build from. Looks like that gun was made in 1969.

I'd ship it to Fred. ^^^
And the original picture looks like it is twisted.

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Originally Posted by foxx

Also, VERY IMPORTANT! Make sure you plug the bottom of the holes for the mount screws if they protrude thru the action (they probably do). You don't want any epoxy getting into the action. If it were me, I'd lube the heck out of the inside of the action and then pack the underside full of putty so no epoxy can get in there.

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Thanks for the suggestion; they do protrude through the action.

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Originally Posted by BillPa

The only thing to foxx's post, you may want to build a dam using clay, plumber's putty or Play-Doe around the mount-action to keep the Devcon PS , JB or JB-Quick were it belongs.

Bill

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Thanks. How fluid is Devcon etc? I've heard that some are pretty runny, while others are pretty solid. It seems like I need to build it up a lot, which I assume is why you are suggesting making a clay dam.

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would dedicate this action to a fire form gun....and find a good action to build from.

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That's what I was thinking when I saw OP number one.

notpu,

In case you are not aware, sharpshooter has been working Savage for a long time. There much experience in what he says.

Secondly, as it's an older rifle with issues you may be better off getting a new rifle to shoot for now and use this one as a parts gun later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by notpu

Thanks. How fluid is Devcon etc? I've heard that some are pretty runny, while others are pretty solid. It seems like I need to build it up a lot, which I assume is why you are suggesting making a clay dam.

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Devcon 10110 is like peanut butter. Very strong and good bond. dams would still be good and pretty much used whenever you use an epoxy of any kind.

Also, I agree with all these guys. I was not joking when I said send it to Fred. My suggestions for "repair" need to be taken in context. IF I were to do it myself and did not really care to spend money on it, etc. THat's what I would do to it. I would never do such a thing for a friend's gun or anything like that. Kinda like using duct tape to fix a car. :)

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Originally Posted by JCalhoun

notpu,

In case you are not aware, sharpshooter has been working Savage for a long time. There much experience in what he says.

Secondly, as it's an older rifle with issues you may be better off getting a new rifle to shoot for now and use this one as a parts gun later.

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I was not aware of sharpshooter's history. I'm new to Savage and the forum, and it's helpful to know whose guidance I should especially be paying attention to. Thanks!

I'm interested in hunting and eventually getting into long range shooting, and I had hoped that a 110 action could provide a good action to build from. Apparently, this one may not be that action. As it's currently my one and only bolt gun, I'm interested in trying to do as much as I can (safely) with it and make mistakes on an old, inexpensive action so that when I do get a new one, I'll hopefully do a decent job. It's hopefully not unrealistic to make this functional as a hunting rifle with minimal incremental investment. As much as I might prefer to scrap this rifle and start anew, I won't likely have the funds for that in the near term.

Are older actions generally inferior, or did I just get unlucky?

Thanks again for your comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by foxx

Devcon 10110 is like peanut butter. Very strong and good bond. dams would still be good and pretty much used whenever you use an epoxy of any kind.

Also, I agree with all these guys. I was not joking when I said send it to Fred. My suggestions for "repair" need to be taken in context. IF I were to do it myself and did not really care to spend money on it, etc. THat's what I would do to it. I would never do such a thing for a friend's gun or anything like that. Kinda like using duct tape to fix a car. :)

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Makes sense. I would definitely prefer not to spend money on it, and I am looking forward to learning by working on it myself; if I had the funds, I think I would take the majority's advice and get a new one.

I am embarrassed to ask, since he seems to be well known, but who is Fred? Is he sharpshooter? Thanks.

Yes. Fred is Sharpshooter. The "Savage Guru". :)

Fred Moreo is sharpshooter of Sharp Shooter Supply.

The guns from the late 1960's through the late 1980's tended to have more quality control issues than the 1990's onward. There also some minor differences in them that could cause some issues in a build.

How did you acquire this rifle?

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Originally Posted by JCalhoun

Fred Moreo is sharpshooter of Sharp Shooter Supply.

The guns from the late 1960's through the late 1980's tended to have more quality control issues than the 1990's onward. There also some minor differences in them that could cause some issues in a build.

How did you acquire this rifle?

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Thanks for the explanation. I was specifically looking for an older 110 that I could later change the barrel and stock as my skills and interests developed. I found this one on Armslist.

If you have a resource you could direct me to where I could learn about potential issues, I'd appreciate it. I was under the impression that the action had been largely constant since Savage changed how it attached barrels around 1967 until the recent change of the location of the bolt release.

I'm very grateful for everyone's help.

Unless they disclosed the issues you're talking about, I'd say you got cheated. :(