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Has anyone here built a straight walled rifle such as the 460s&w or the 444marlin on a savage action? Ohio has just legalized straight walled rifle cartridges to be used during deer gun season and im thinking about possibly building one, using a savage short action if its possible. Any info would be great, thanks
Thanks for the info scope eye. Do you know if jim at apache makes barrels for the .460 s&w? I really like this caliber for deer in my area.
Yes Jim will make you one. It was between the 460 and the 444 for my striker build, and I went 444. He would have done 460 also.
Look at the 450 Bushmaster. 460 level power, uses a standard bolt head and feeds perfectly through a SA-CF magazine.
Is the .460 a standard bolt head? So I can basically use any stevens 200 or savage short action for this build correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by bootsmcguire
The 460 might work with a magnum bolt head, and for that you would need a pushfeed Magnum bolt head for the short action, or modify a long action magnum head to fit the short action.
With the 450BM you would use a standard 308 sized (.473") bolt head. If you are planning to reload the 450BM can be loaded to easily surpass the 460 by a good ways and still be totally safe and brass friendly in a bolt action. Jim at Apache Gunworks is the only one I know of making the 450BM barrel and Jim does top notch work. I have 4 barrels built by him and will have plenty more in the future.
I think I will prob go with the .450bm like your saying. Ive been reading up on it and they seem to be the best straight walled cartridge for hunting imo. What kind of accuracy can you expect at 100yds with a custom build 450 with an apache barrel on it? Also what is the max effective kill range on this particular type of hunting round?Quote:
Originally Posted by bootsmcguire
I would recommend 450 BM too. I have one and the barrel was built by Jim at Apache.
He's one of the best all around! I've got a few rifles barreled with his products and there
all outstanding quality and accuracy.
As for accuracy, I shoot 2 inch groups with red dot off bench at 80-100. With any type of
magnification that group would certainly be smaller.
With that being said off shoulder I can hit 12"x12" steel at distances of 50-180 no problem
with my 450. That cartridge should easily kill at 250yds with right placement. All my shooting
is with factory Hornady or Remington ammo.
With any luck I'll let you know in a month or so. Just ordered one myself. Neither Boots' nor Apache's advice or work have let me down yet. and, no, they're not partners or anything.
Using a 16" ish barrel, velocities listed on some Hornady factory stuff I have states 2100fps, for the 265FTX. Running through my basic ballistics generator, it will stay to over 1000 ft/lbs out to 225yds. So on a white tail you should be looking at 200yds easy.
With my apache barrel and those factory loads I was getting just under 1" groups at 100yds. Now I am certain handloads will do better and be faster since factory stuff is loaded to handle AR platform pressures and the bolt actions will handle quite a bit more as will the brass. I need to work on some more handloads for it but my 444 build has been taking precedence as of late. I am willing to just about guarantee that a 450BM will do everything you need it to.
Like foxx said, I am in no way affiliated with Apache Gunworks or Jim in a legal or business sense, I am just very happy with his work, prices, and turn around times (so are all the others I've talked to) and he has treated me great and I like recommending somebody who does business like that, especially with the quality he puts into his machining.
I'd go with .450 Marlin. Works with a standard magnum bolt face, fits and feeds from a standard magnum magazine. Load it down to 45-70 levels or crank it up to its full potential. The Hornady plastic-tipped pointy bullets let you reach out past 200 yards. In any case, it would be a great cartridge for a bolt rifle.
Ammo much easier to come by.
Am unsure whether it would fit in a short action; If so, I may have a barrel for my model 16 made up in .450 Marlin.
Be careful with your cartridge choice legally.
Michigan has passed a similar law but does not allow 450 Marlin or 45-70. There is a limit to the case length. That's why I am going with 450 BM as opposed to 45-70 Govt or 450 Marlin.
Foxx , how do ya headspace for 450 bm?
I don't know. Haven't crossed that bridge yet. Boots, Clintserv and Apache would know. If I am desperate enough, I might just use an unfired case and see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockrex
Here you go, http://www.4-dproducts.com/displayit...5&tname=rental
Hey I am not only here for my, boyish good looks and charming personality.
Dean
There ya go! Should have known Deano would have the answer and a source. :)
4-D is where I rented the gauges for the job. I was originally sent the wrong ones. I believe they offer 2 different sizes (AR-15, bolt action). Be sure to question which ones your getting when you order. I forget which is which now.
I know the first ones were to long and spacing was way off, they sent me the others they had and they were perfect.
Hate to spoil the party but if you're in Ohio the 450BM is no legal for deer. It is a tapered wall not straight. Was looking forward to the build but can't use it for deer. 45-70 is go to go as are many others but the key is straight walled case.
It may not be out of the question to headspace with a sized case and scotch tape with this particular round.
I've done a few that way but really small cartridges, 223, 300 BO, most recent 6.5 Grendel.
I shot all with no signs of stress. No handloads only factory for me. It has worked fine for me.
If you plan to handload I believe the majority would recommend a complete set of gauges.
Thanks guys, would an ar in 450 be legal in mi to hunt?
Maybe cuz got up at 4 am, but without a shoulder how would you headspace.
It headspaces off the mouth in a bolt action, case length is 1.7"
Dean
Yup, headspaces off the mouth. Deano is correct, of course ;).
I headspaced my 450BM and 444 using nominally sized and trimmed brass. Works fine in the 450BM and see no reason it won't in the 444, but a trip to the range will tell for sure.
You may give your DNR office a call and verify the exact rules on straight wall. Some states still consider the 450BM a straight wall even though it is ever so slightly tapered, but because it has no bottleneck it is a straight wall in their eyes. Get it in writing for sure if you have any doubts. The 45-70, 444 Marlin, 375Win, and 50 AE are all considered by most states as Deer Legal "Straight Wall" cartridges and they all have a bit of taper same as the 450BM.
450 Bushmaster
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...psdc692758.jpg
444 Marlin
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf6eb1e21.jpg
45-70 Government
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps26dbb0b5.gif
375 Winchester
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps88312d54.jpg
Just check and be sure with your states Game Wardens or DNR. Like I said, many states allow these and by the rules that I am aware of (I am no expert only going off of what you guys are saying in various threads here) the 450BM would be considered the same.
Hope I didn't muddy the waters too much, ;).
For the life of me I can't figure out, what they were trying to achieve or accomplish, and what they were getting at with the restriction on straight wall cases, for the love of god this whole country fed themselves for the first two century's hunting with that type of casing, good grief.
Dean
I think they are trying to define their intention... That is, to allow a some sort of "limited, low-power rifle". The construction of the cartridge is not the issue. Michigan, for example, has allowed "straight walled cartridge" pistols in southern Michigan for many years, but, for safety sake, does not want deer hunters firing long-range (300 yards) rifles in the more heavily populated areas of southern Michigan. For a long time they have only allowed straight walled pistol, (taper okay), muzzle loaders and shotguns down here. Now the modern muzzle loaders and rifled shotguns are shooting accurately to 200 yards without a whole lot of mayhem, or destruction to property, so the argument is why not allow certain smokeless cartridge rifles that are similar to these? That's reasonable, but how do you define such a thing? The intent is clear, but defining it and making the rules easy to enforce and follow is another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by scope eye
Get a go gage and no go if you think it is necessary. Then just set the headspace and you should take the ejector out when doing this. Check with ptg and foester or Clymer for the correct gage.
Apache is making me a set of 450 BM gauges, that will be ready by weeks end, so if you want to send me your Info and I will lend them to you, and that goes for anyone else that may need them.
Dean
Thanks, Dean, I may do that.
I just learned a short while ago that Manson Precision Reamers is located a couple miles from my house. I am told they make great tools. I called there to day to find out if they sell gages over the counter. They do. I guess I now have a pretty good source that's rather handy. If they will rent them, I am truly in luck.
Yep your right there. I was planning on going to build a 450 bm for my ohio rifle but found out that it is not allowed along with the 450 marlin :(. Im thinking about just building a .460 s&w if I can go that routeQuote:
Originally Posted by foxx
Should heed my own advice, maybe. I am assuming 450BM is allowed, based on initial specs I read somewhere here. I hope they don't exclude 450BM.
Michigan says: A .35-caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges that have a minimum case length of 1.16 and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches. The 450 BM case length is 1.700. You should be within the law with it.
So Ohio says it HAS to be straight wall?
Yes. here's "The List" Legal deer hunting rifles are chambered for the following calibers: .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum, .38 Special, .375 Super Magnum, .375 Winchester, .38-55, .41 Long Colt, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .444 Marlin, .45 ACP, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .45 Smith & Wesson, .454 Casull, .460 Smith & Wesson, .45-70, .45-90, .45-110, .475 Linebaugh, .50-70, .50-90, .50-100, .50-110 and .500 Smith & Wesson.
Just a quick question, will a magnum bolt face work for the .460 s&w? Im thinking about using a long action with magnum bolt face for a 460 build on a savage action since Im not legally allowed to carry the .450bm deer hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by neohiojohn
I am going to bet not. The factory magnum heads I tested for my 444 marlin were measuring around .555" and thus left me too sloppy for proper extraction on the 444 brass which has a rim of .514". The 460 S&W has a rim of .520" so I am betting the magnum head is still going to be too sloppy for it. I took a .473" (308 sized, or 30-06 if you are going long action) and opened the face up on the lathe to .521" and it works on the 444's rim perfectly. I am betting if you opened one up to .525-.527" it would be the ticket for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remingtonman
Foxx....450BM should be fine....unlike OH, MI didn't limit us with a list of very specific cartridges. I am still waffling on my straight walled rifle caliber...but 450BM is certainly on my list of option. I hunt mostly in the "modern rifle zone" I am not in immediate need...YET! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by foxx
What are the spec's on the barrel you ordered?
Yeah, I rarely hunt down here any more, but when I do, I'll want a 450BM if we can use them. As I see it, it's not looking good that we will be able to do so any time soon. I might not even have a need for this thing for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by emtrescue6
I went with CM at 16.5 inches and a 14 twist, I think. Can't remember the twist for sure. Whatever Boots recommends.
Well you'll have to give me a full report on that 450 BM when you get it and get some rounds down it Foxx!
Boots...what's the recoil like on that 450BM from a bolt gun?
Foxx, it should be a 16" twist. That was the fastest readily available blank that Jim has a reliable access to and it is plenty fast enough for the 450BM velocities.
emtrescue6, I have mine in a Tupperware stock (since its cheap, light, and serves great as the truck/ATV gun I intended this for) and recoil is about the same as my 12FV 308, or like a sporter 243. I had Jim thread the muzzle for a brake, and I put one on it I built, but haven't tried it yet.
I shoot the 450bm in a Striker. Full house loads are about like a hot 44 mag. I have a 16" Apache barrel with a Ross brake on it. It also shoots lead loads as good as jacketed. Barrel on a rifle like shooting 20 ga slugs.
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...1/DSCN3603.jpg