444 Marlin or 460 S&W, Which and Why?

Ok guys. I am keeping details to a minimum here but it all boils down to this:

444 Marlin or 460 S&W?

All things in this scenario are equal other than the chambering. Same platform, same barrel length, nearly the same intended bullet weights. I do not have dies or brass for either at this time, but both are available to me for both cartridges for similar money. I stock 44 and 45 cal bullets for other firearms I have, so no gain either way there in way of component simplicity. Also, if it matters to anyone, I am not detoured by the fact that 444 cases must be lubed to be sized and 460 do not due to the carbide dies being available in the 460.

Near as I can tell by reading my manuals and browsing on-line the power factor seems to be similar with a slight edge perhaps to the 444, and the 444 has a bit of a nostalgia appeal to it, but then again the 460 is the 460 so.......

Any reason to go with one over the other in this scenario?

Just trying to see if I am missing anything. I am normally not the "what do I do?" type of guy, but not having shot either extensively I figure I'll just double check and see if I am missing anything.

Never shot anything .444 but have shot my cousin's .460 s&w XVR with 10.5" barrel. I know it is a revolver but the thing impressed me. I hit a milk jug at 100yards rested on the third shot and my cousin was regularly ringing 24" steel at 318 yards. The round is just flat out cool. I would love to shoot a long gun in .460

460 all the way. I would prefer the shorter case and you could use the 250gr FTX in it. I loaded some 444 and the case just seems way to long. I still have like new 444 dies if you go that route and need some though.

Thanks guys. Any other opinions out there feel free to chime in.

I had my mind made up to go 460 due to component availability, and then magically some 444 brass became available and now I am back up in the air on it. I have the 450BM (which I can't legally use for deer hunting here in IA) so going 444 would give me something different bore wise. I wish I could just use my 450BM and be done, but rules are rules.

I know you're looking at rifles but I love my 460 XVR - can also shoot factory .454 Casull or .45 Colt for something different.

Thanks for the comment Rick, in a normal situation the added benefit of the 454 and 45LC would be helpful, but in this project if I go for the 460, I would be limited to the 460.

Keep 'em coming guys.

Well I went with the 444. The decision maker was I was generously donated 150pc of 444 brass (thanks again, you know who you are) and thanks to snowgetter1 got some dies coming at a great price so I figured it must be a sign pushing me that way. I will most likely have a 460 barrel made up latter on just because. We will see how this 1st barrel does for feeding and such.

I suppose I should let the cat out of the bag. I am going to be building this on a Striker with the intended purpose of hunting deer here in Iowa. I have been doing more and more still/standing hunting in recent years so this just seems to be a logical step to let me best use handloading and a Savage to legally hunt deer, and hopefully add a bit of range to my kill zone. Plus with my new mobile box blind I built last fall a Striker would be handier inside.

Thanks for all the input, and I will start a new thread with a build and range report once all the pieces to the puzzle arrive.

Boots, it is a three die set. No factory crimp die. But, I was able to put a really good crimp on the ones I loaded without it.

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Originally Posted by snowgetter1

Boots, it is a three die set. No factory crimp die. But, I was able to put a really good crimp on the ones I loaded without it.

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Thanks again. That still works for me.

I think there are better choices in bullets for the hotter .45s than for the .44s. The .44 mag bullets are not really designed for the higher velocities of the 444 Marlin. If your gonna shoot hard cast it won't matter, but if you want to shoot jacketed bullets it may.

Thanks for the heads up there 308law, I had never had to look for higher velocity 44 bullets until this, and have discovered the same. There are projectiles designed for the 444 however. Hornady has a couple, the 265FTX and one of the 300gr XTP are both supposed to be rated for the 444 and there was a 240gr offering as well. Since I can do the 444 on the cheap I am going to stick with it for now, but I will most likely build a 460 in the near future, especially if I really get into this handgun hunting because like you guys said, there are better bullets for the 45cal stuff.

Hornady 265grn FP Interlock #4300 is THE bullet for the 444 Marlin, the Speer 270grn FP Gold Dot/Deepcurl #4461 and 300grn FP Unicore #4463 are also good choices in the 444.

Has anyone ever thought of putting one of these pistols in a chassis that accepts AR type stocks and using a SIG brace on it?

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Originally Posted by wrench man

Hornady 265grn FP Interlock #4300 is THE bullet for the 444 Marlin, the Speer 270grn FP Gold Dot/Deepcurl #4461 and 300grn FP Unicore #4463 are also good choices in the 444.

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I will take a look for both of those. Was going to try the 265FTX but have not been able to locate any. I will look around for the #4300 and give it a shot. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Echo17

Has anyone ever thought of putting one of these pistols in a chassis that accepts AR type stocks and using a SIG brace on it?

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Could be a decent idea. Only issue for my situation is I don't think it would comply with the rules the DNR has for hunting with pistols here.

I will be watching this. Might want the same for myself in southern Michigan. I believe our only limiting factor is it must be a straight walled cartridge.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

Was going to try the 265FTX but have not been able to locate any.

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They're available, I saw two boxes of component bullets on the shelf at Cabela's tonight, no price tag for them?

Yup, found some online. Thanks. Also got some 300gr XTP's on the way. According to Hornady, the 300-XTP works up to 1950fps, and I am betting that with a 15" barrel I'll be doing real good to hit that much speed so I figured I give them a try too. If they don't shoot well, I'll run 'em through my 44 Mag SAA Clone.

After doing some reading after getting the above suggestion, I was starting to really lean towards the 265 Interbond, but none to be found, and Hornady has them suspended so I'll cross my fingers for the 300-XTP. They are a lot cheaper than the 265-FTX's are.

Just a small update. The 444 brass arrived today and I went ahead and assembled the magnum bolt head I intend on using in the Striker. Just test fitting the brass to the head and pushing it straight in against the extractor and ejector, it seemed to slip into the head and under the ejector nice and firmly and seemed to lock right in under the extractor like it should. It looks very promising. It also appears that the action should eject loaded and empty rounds without trouble (just basing that off of my dummy round and port length). Can't do any feed testing at this time since my barrel is still being built, but it all looks very promising. I talked to Jim today and it sounds like my barrel is on deck in the build order just as soon as the rental reamer arrives, so feed testing will have to wait.

Mods: I will start a new build thread in the appropriate board once the barrel arrives. I just figured I would tack this info on here rather than starting a new thread at this juncture. Thanks.

What twist barrel are you going with? I have a 98 Mauser action the was built into a heavy barrel 444 some time in the distant past. Only down side is my barrel is 1 in 38" twist which won't stabilize bullets heavier than 265 grains (I know from bitter experience). There are many excellent heavy cast gas check bullets but I can't use them due to the early slow twist rate that is ideal for the 240/265 grain bullets.

I'll be watching your progress as I'm thinking about building another 444 on a Savage action using a lighter sporter type barrel with a 1 in 20" twist throated for the heavier cast bullets. That would be great hog medicine!

I went with the 1:20" twist. Kinda figured in this case faster twist is better.

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

I went with the 1:20" twist. Kinda figured in this case faster twist is better.

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Good call. Excellent twist to take advantage of the heavier bullets.

Barrel arrived today. Going to go down stairs and get it mounted up on the Striker and see how things go.

I'd go .444 in rifle anytime alongside taking .45-70. I have no misunderstandings of either caliber as far as I know and I have had both but now only the .45-70. If there is a .460 out there it's gotta be the Weatherby or I lose my sight and forget what we are doing here.

The .444 is first of all cultic as cutic as its followers. I am a follower and believer in the .444 in situations I would rather not have a Government .45 70. Most of those situations have been testified to by the members of the .444 and I have no need to elaborate.

The .460 SW is not the .460 Wby. It is a recent cartridge. Perhaps it has value.

I am a bit older than the years when the newest seemed the best.

It is not so any longer. The classic cartridges (even the .444 Marlin is classic) do all the so called new do better but the old actually is better for longevity and reliability and availability.

Just embarrassed myself by realizing you went .444 beyond your original post.
I am new here. I try to respond to the OP without reading any further and sometimes it would look more sharp for me to read ahead.

No embarrassment due. It happens to us all.

Like you said, 444 is what it is and has great potential in the use I am trying it for. I am really looking forward to seeing what this setup will do. Nothing wrong with classic, I like my fair share of "classics" and a good share of new stuff too. It all has its place and if nothing else it gives us shooters a variety to choose from and play with.

Did you get that Striker shooting yet?

Well it is built, and I just built the brake for it today. Haven't made any ammo yet other than a couple of dummies for feed testing. If I can get time this weekend I am planning to make up some ammo and hopefully get out to shoot it this week or next weekend. Fingers crossed. Had a bit of a set back with my bolt head (completely my fault). I did some tweaking that wasn't really needed and am going to have to replace it, so I have a WTB thread going looking for a new one, but I will probably rob the one out of my 6WSM or 7 Mag to get me shooting.

I'll see if I can't get some pics and start another thread in the proper board showing the build so far.

Most of the time the .444 Marlin easily (in Winchester souped up 94 to Timberline .444 too with the .444 Marlin from New Haven and not Remington) was the accurate big bore. I'd read the .444s v the .45-70s over the last decade and more years fighting each other. I always had the .444 on hand shooting better than any .45-70 Marlin (the 1895 ported or unported or whatnot) and sort of laughed as if I was superior in understanding--at the .45-70 Clan dissing the .444.

Okay so I did pick up a Miroku Winchester 1886 Short Rifle (24" Barrel really so the short rifle name escapes me) and took it to the range back in 2008 using the irons and shot under one inch regularly from a table without sandbags or support (just my elbows of a table and me sitting) at 50 yards.

I looked at my gun as it ejected straight up and over my head while I was using the iron sights over this rickety table and the action itself felt so smart and tight and vault like and then I knew why in the movie The Edge with Anthony Hopkins he had an 1886 Winchester in that cabin in Alaska with two shots out of a magazine loaded to 8 shots (my Miro 1886 holds EIGHT in the tube!) to deal with the climax of The Edge with Elle.

My wife's sister asked me the other day out of all my guns which one is the funnest and I pulled out the Miro Win 1886 Short Rifle and explained....\\

Ellle I mentioned but her name is Elle Mcpherson or something. She's a swimsuit model from the past and in this movie she is the wife of Anthony Hopkins.
Anthony shows his finesse working the action of an 1886 Winchester in .45-70 Gov. True to the date and film and stuff. One film that was real about a gun which happened to be the 1886 Short Rifle in .45-70 Government. Just like my Miroku!

Late last year I found a bolt action 444 in a LGS. I spotted it sitting in the corner behind the counter because of the stock being painted like the American flag. The action is a Mauser 98 and the bolt face and extractor was expertly opened up for the rimmed case. The frame rails were also worked over to feed the fatter case. The barrel is an unknown brand at 24 inches and is varmint weight. I suspect the rifle was originally built back in the 60's as it has the early 1 in 38" twist which I don't like because it forces me to use bullets no heavier than 300 grains. On the plus side, it's Ballard style rifling rather than Marlin's "Micro-groove". To date, I can regularly hit the steel pigs at 300 yards using the Hornady 300 grain XTP pushed by 50 grains of IMR 4895 giving me a velocity of 2289 fps. I'd post a picture of the rifle but for some odd reason I'm not being allowed to post pictures?

If you aren't able to get it feeding properly, the .444 rim can be turned down to .473 and used with a standard bolt face.
I had a stub chambered in .444 and turned down some brass for testing, it all passed with flying colors....

Good to hear, I may have to give that a try also, I wanted very much to do this with all factory parts (sans the barrel of course) but the magnum bolt heads are just too much oversized and letting the brass slop around in there and come off the extractor way too early. I will give your idea a try, I am also going to open up a 308 sized bolt head just a touch for the rim and see if that will do it for me. It was working ok with the magnum head, but the unreliable extraction was not going to cut it. Hopefully tomorrow with the new bolt head opened up, all will be solved.

Well I opened up a 308 sized head just a bit to handle the 444 rim. I also went ahead and installed a SSS ejector and spring while the bolt was apart. Now she is cycling my dummy rounds perfectly and ejecting and extracting like she should. Now I can start making some rounds and planning a day to head to the range. Finally!

I wanted to make this with all as is factory parts (sans the barrel) but unfortunately I had to modify a bolt head to get it done. Simple mod, but still I just wanted to keep it simple for others who may want to build one. It is what it is, and I have some pics on my phone, if I can get them over to the comp, I'll start the build thread and post a link in this thread.

Thanks to all who gave input and followed.

If you decide to turn the rims down, turn them to .480 for a little more extractor bite. The 6.5x55 is .4803 and feeds and extracts well from the standard bolt face. When I build mine, I will go that route for the additional meat that the extractor will have to work with. I only turned 5 down for testing so I'm not out much, but my preference would be for more material left on the rim.

Here is a link to the build thread I started.......with some pics! Finally right. ;)

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...121#post273121