Savage answers poor group woes

Interesting answers from Savage this morning. I posted in this thread about a problem with the 4th and 5th shot not grouping with the first 3:

http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...ar-bedding-NOT!!

I called Savage to ask for causes or remedies. I spoke with a very nice lady who accurately took my issue to a gunsmith. Then these were the answers:

1) be sure I'm taking my time with the 4th and 5th shots
2) the rear tang SHOULD be tight, do not float it
3) if the rear pillar were an issue, the first 3 shots would not group
4) check for barrel clearance in the channel as soon as a round goes off group (while it's hot)
5) the barrel does not have to be cool, just not be hot
6) #4 & #5 are probably the issue IF shot #'s 4&5 are in a group
7) if shot #4 & #5 are flyers, not grouped, they need to see the rifle

#2 is really puzzling to me. Everything I've ever read here, or on other sites, says the opposite. When I built a new wood stock for my other F Class rifle, I floated the heck out of the tang, and that rifle shoots tiny groups.
#3 is interesting, something to learn here??
#6 & #7 are telling their gunsmith something, but he would not convey what it is. Looking back at my targets, shots #4 & #5 are definitely flyers, not grouped.

Any thoughts on answer #2,6 & 7 ?

I've floated the tangs on all my builds as well. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever read a reason for floating the tang.

Texas Solo,
Your #7 is interesting. I have all of my targets, however, I am not sure that I can identify exactly which shot went where. As for floating the tang, that's some of the advice I got to my post and reading other threads here. My Choate tactical stock came from the factory with plenty of clearance.

As for bedding: I understand the concept and have read many articles on the subject, however, I fail to see how you can bed a Savage stock when there is no "meat" around the rear pillar to work with. I would love to see someone's photos.

It is my understanding that the reason you float the tang is to help keep the receiver out of compression. What I mean is, if the tang area is touching, then there is a possibility that the action is resting in the stock on the front pillar area and the tang. If that is the case, then the rear pillar area will have a gap between the action and the pillar area of the stock. As the stock is then tightened down it causes unwanted pressure against the tang because of the rear bolt "pulling down" the suspended action. That uneven pressure can cause accuracy issues and maybe even stiff safety movement and perhaps a bit of drag on the bolt if it is real bad. By floating the tang, you are ensuring that the action is sitting nice and level on both pillar areas of the stock.

Not quite sure why Savage does not want it to be floated. Several of my rifles were reasonable floating from the factory, some were not. I really don't believe it is something that Savages watches at the factory at all based off of the rifles I have purchased.

Boots,
That explanation seems reasonable to me, which is why I followed along. It is just frustrating to learn that there is no consensus. Just as there seems to be no agreement on how well to clean, or not clean, a Savage barrel, etc.

My very limited .02 don't clean your barrel unless your groups start opening up.

My .02:

Savage factory "smiths" and "engineers" are not necessarily experienced shooters who strive for perfection. They themselves may not understand or appreciate the kind of knowledge Boots presented. They are not in the business of building and shooting target rifles. They design and build affordable rifles that will SELL. There's nothing wrong with that. It is up to us to recognize what works and does not work for our intended purposes.

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Originally Posted by GaryBF

Boots,
That explanation seems reasonable to me, which is why I followed along. It is just frustrating to learn that there is no consensus. Just as there seems to be no agreement on how well to clean, or not clean, a Savage barrel, etc.

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All I can tell you on that, is what works on one rifle does not work on every rifle and what works on most rifles may not work on your rifle. I have had a fair number of Savage factory barrels. Some with high round counts and some with low. Almost all of mine (using cleaning for an example) prefer to be dirty and full of copper and stay that way until accuracy falls off. If they get cleaned too early then they must be shot back in to load 'em up with more copper before they settle down. However I have had a couple of factory barrels (1 or 2 tops) that preferred to be clean as could be. If those 2 would get dirty they would not group worth a hoot. They worked well as hunting barrels since often times hunting you only need a few shots and then you go home and can clean the rifle.

You will find the same kind of arguments over barrel break in. I have tried most of the methods and cannot see a winning system to stick with. I have done the clean every shot method for 20 (and variations there of like clean every 1 for x shots, then every 3 for x shots, and so on) and I have done the Pull it out of the box and clean it and then just go shoot until its dirty again method. No real accuracy difference to either. To me how fast you shoot and the chambering of the barrel have more effect than the break in method.


Point is that you will never see a consensus because many people have many different opinions and experiences and each rifle barrel kind of has a personality of its own.

Sorry for going off the path here a bit. :focus:

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Originally Posted by foxx

My .02:

Savage factory "smiths" and "engineers" are not necessarily experienced shooters who strive for perfection. They themselves may not understand or appreciate the kind of knowledge Boots presented. They are not in the business of building and shooting target rifles. They design and build affordable rifles that will SELL. There's nothing wrong with that. It is up to us to recognize what works and does not work for our intended purposes.

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Foxx hit the primer on the head.. I am an experienced rifle builder, just got into the savage world last year, but I have learned a bunch just following the forums here. Some of my pre-conceived notions were put away rather quickly. I've found that each build is its own set of challenges. They will all shoot good as a hunting rifle, but I strive for a rifle more capable than I am. I was always taught that the tang should have complete contact with the stock to share the recoil impulse, and a loose or floating tang could result in a broken or cracked stock. Bedding the action from my perspective has always included the tang. I'd like to further my knowledge about floating the tang, and see what I have been missing in my builds.

P.S. Savages are the first rifles I have built with plastic stocks, and that may well be the difference..

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Originally Posted by GaryBF

Texas Solo,
Your #7 is interesting. I have all of my targets, however, I am not sure that I can identify exactly which shot went where. As for floating the tang, that's some of the advice I got to my post and reading other threads here. My Choate tactical stock came from the factory with plenty of clearance.

As for bedding: I understand the concept and have read many articles on the subject, however, I fail to see how you can bed a Savage stock when there is no "meat" around the rear pillar to work with. I would love to see someone's photos.

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I know my errant shots are always #4 & #5. I see the first three nice and tight and begin to think...maybe. Then it goes to heck. This scenario has played out too many times to recall. I want to know what it is that the gunsmith knows about the difference between the last two shots grouping or being flyers.

Same with my Choate stock...lots of clearance. Boots explanation is what I'm thinking also. Especially since the action is making contact with the mag clip, NOT the pillar.
I'm confident in the decision to float the tang.

How fast are you shooting? is barrel heating the problem? if so is it a problem with the barrel not being relieved after machining or is it a problem with contact with some part of the stock when it warms up. If the latter, relieving the stock some more in the barrel channel might take care of it but if the former, a new barrel is the answer.

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Originally Posted by Blitzfike

How fast are you shooting? is barrel heating the problem? if so is it a problem with the barrel not being relieved after machining or is it a problem with contact with some part of the stock when it warms up. If the latter, relieving the stock some more in the barrel channel might take care of it but if the former, a new barrel is the answer.

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Not shooting so fast as to heat up a barrel....I know better.
I've relieved the tang and quadruple checked everything for tight (scope, etc)
I'll know more tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Blitzfike

I was always taught that the tang should have complete contact with the stock to share the recoil impulse, and a loose or floating tang could result in a broken or cracked stock.

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Isn't that what the recoil lug is for? I've always been taught that the action screws should not absorb any recoil, which would then also apply to the tang.

Going to range in about an hour. We'll see what happens. Will update.

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Originally Posted by Texas Solo

I've always been taught that the action screws should not absorb any recoil, which would then also apply to the tang.

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Correct. With pillars or not I open the holes to 5/16" for screw shank clearance. If the actions screws are controlling the recoil you have 1/4-28 springs!

If you want a sure accuracy killer allow anything but the lug control the recoil.

Bill

UPDATE.....UPDATE.....READ ALL ABOUT IT.....

Don't ever let anyone tell you not too float the tang. I floated this one that has been giving me a fit, well enough to get a business card all the way around it.
Torqued the screws to 30 inch lbs each, front to rear.

Shot two five shot groups of what I believed was going to be my best powder charges.

41.6/IMR4064....seated .006 off....155 Nosler CC....two groups......908" & .879".....no flyers !!!!!!!!!!!!!
41.4/IMR4064....seated .006 off....155 Nosler CC....two groups......792" & .552".....no flyers !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't chrono it today, will do Tuesday. Also, I had a 15MPH headwind, which would shift slightly occasionally. I know it caught me a couple of times.
My charges may seem a bit weak, but I'm using LC brass which measures, volume wise, considerably less than commercial brass. I do know that 41.8/4064 gave me 2850, which is pretty fast for 41.8gr of 4064. I'm guessing I'll be about 2750 @ 41.4grs.

I think Boots hit the nail on the head:

All I can tell you on that, is what works on one rifle does not work on every rifle and what works on most rifles may not work on your rifle.

Next week I'll get my scope dope for 600, and I'm going to re-visit the 168's I tried earlier. Starting over is such fun.
Thanks to all who joined in here. Maybe we can all learn something together.

New to Savages. Just got an 11 VT. Reading some of the posts. I have never heard of 'floating' a tang before. As stated, good way to break a wood stock.

But I have worked with a Win Mdl 70 that I put in a Bell&Carlson 'Glass/Kevlar stock. Full action and 1 1/2" of bbl epoxy bedded and bbl fully free-floated. I did not 'float' the tang, but I do know that the torque on the action screws made ALL the difference in the world with that one rifle. A 1/8th turn of any action screw too tight and it opened up. When it was right, snug but too snug and certainly not tight, the rifle was a tack driver. Had 3 rnd groups at 100M that were sub .4" and sub .7". It was a 300 Win Mag with sporter bbl, different loads but using a Speer flat base 180 grn hunting bullet.

I agree w/ Texas: "All I can tell you on that, is what works on one rifle does not work on every rifle and what works on most rifles may not work on your rifle."

All my tangs are floated on my savage rifles. I have seen way to many times flyer issues as described by the OP by the tang touching the stock.

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Originally Posted by stomp442

All my tangs are floated on my savage rifles. I have seen way to many times flyer issues as described by the OP by the tang touching the stock.

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+1, stomp me and you think alot alike ive noticed

Ha well I don't know if I should be worried or you.

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Originally Posted by stomp442

Ha well I don't know if I should be worried or you.

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i think both of us should be worried, but to the point, since a savage doesnt have a screw in the tang like other brands i see only negatives from not floating it. in an older remington or something that has an action screw going into the tang you would obviously want contact and to bed it.but i Cant think of a single reason that having the tang in contact with the stock would help in a savage? anybody?

Bedding the tang comes from the Remington crowd where the rear action screw goes into the tang. As anyone with a Savage action can tell just by looking the rear action screw is not going into the tang of a Savage but well in front of it which can put the tang in a bind if not floated. That folks is why the tang of a Remington and its clones should be bedded and the Savage tang should not.

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Originally Posted by earl39

Bedding the tang comes from the Remington crowd where the rear action screw goes into the tang. As anyone with a Savage action can tell just by looking the rear action screw is not going into the tang of a Savage but well in front of it which can put the tang in a bind if not floated. That folks is why the tang of a Remington and its clones should be bedded and the Savage tang should not.

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+1 Exactly

Agreed

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Originally Posted by earl39

As anyone with a Savage action can tell just by looking the rear action screw is not going into the tang of a Savage but well in front of it which can put the tang in a bind if not floated.

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If the stock was bedded correctly the tang won't bind. Its why you bed a stock to an action, not an action to a stock.

Bill

Did a 20 Vartarg build. I floated the tang and the rifle shot beautifully. What I found my rifle to be very sensitive to was the action screw torque. Cinch it down hard (around 30 lbs) and it wouldn't group worth a darn. Just snug them good - about 25 lbs - and it came right back. Can't say that it was a 4th or 5th shot though, it just wouldn't group well.

The only thing that makes sense here is something is hitting when the gun warms up. Barrel nut possibly?

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Originally Posted by Teancum1

Did a 20 Vartarg build. I floated the tang and the rifle shot beautifully. What I found my rifle to be very sensitive to was the action screw torque. Cinch it down hard (around 30 lbs) and it wouldn't group worth a darn. Just snug them good - about 25 lbs - and it came right back. Can't say that it was a 4th or 5th shot though, it just wouldn't group well.

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Tean, I don't want to appear to criticize your work, but it is my understanding that what you describe is an indication the action is stressed or binding in the stock and bedding material. My guess is when it was bedded, the action was under stress possibly due to using action screws to draw the action into the bedding material when bedding it in the first place. Ideally, those screws should turn freely then suddenly stop and not have any noticeable change in POI when tightened to various amounts of torque. If it does, there's a reason, and the only one I can think of is it is flexing or binding under stress. It action should not flex or bind under any circumstances if bedded properly.