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so first of all, i got a lot of questions. my understanding is that a thicker recoil lug allows for a more rigid bond between the rifle and the stock by obviously not as much flex in the lug and a greater bearing surface when bedding which in turn will allow the gun, in theory, to be more accurate. is this even remotely close?? if so can you put a thicker lug (.25", .3", .5") on a savage? would it allow the barrel nut to grab enough threads?
There are tons of threads hidden under that nut, even with a .250 recoil lug. That'd be the least of your worries. There is no negatives to installing a thicker precision ground lug.
Stick with the .250 lug and you will be fine. When you bed the stock, it will take care of any uneven areas in the stock and you will have a perfect match to your action, and you should have a perfect match to the recoil lug.
A .300 or .500 recoil lug: You won't have enough threads in the action.
Dennis
correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't proper headspace dictate how many threads will be used up in the action? and that has nothing to do with the recoil lug or nut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
seems to me the only way you could reduce the number of threads used in the action and still have proper headspace, would be to machine some off the front of the reciever, or use a thicker custom bolt head.
Threads in the action will stay the same. But, you'll run out of threads under the nut.
right, that's the way I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
thanks for the quick replies y'all! looks like ill be lookin at the .250
The last 3 or 4 comments are correct. If you use a thicker lug, then less barrel threads make contact with the action.
They are cut pretty tight.
Dennis
The barrel headspaces in the exact same spot it did before, no matter how thick the lug is. A thicker lug has no impact on anything inboard of said lug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis
ETA: On a Savage rifle using a barrel nut.
A thicker recoil lug puts a larger space between the bolt head and barrel.
It my very well work, as long as there is enough threads on the barrel to allow proper head spacing.
The bolt locks in the same position in the "action". Putting a larger recoil lug in pushes the barrel further away from the bolt.
If the barrel screws down far enough to touch the bolt head, then this will leave less threads on the barrel contacting the threads on the barrel nut, if you can even do it.
I don't think a .500 (1/2") recoil lug is going to allow the barrel to screw down far enough in the action to allow proper head spacing. Or if it does, there will be less barrel nut threads contacting the barrel nut. I don't think the barrel nut will screw that far up on the barrel.
A .300 might work, but to use a .500 lug you will have to add threads to the barrel so the barrel will go deep enough to contact the bolt head.
Standard Savage - 1.060-20 TPI (1.600 Long +/- .020) . . . this will work easily with a .250" lug
Large Savage - 1.115-20 TPI (1.500 Long +/- .020) this will work easily with a .250' lug
Adding a 1/2" to a Standard Shank, you would have to add at least 1/4" more threads to the barrel = 1.085 barrel thread length
And a large would have the barrel thread at least 1.140" barrel thread length.
Dennis
A crude way of explaining this: If you put a 1" recoil lug on your rifle, you would have "NO" threads showing for your barrel nut! And you probably couldn't even start the barrel threads in the action.
Dennis, a thicker recoil lug does NOT change the space between the bolt head and barrel on a Savage rifle that uses a barrel nut. The relationship between the bolt head and the breech face DOES NOT change, no matter how thick the recoil lug is unless you run out of threads.
The information you're passing on applies to barrels with tenons on them, which ARE affected by lug thickness.
Since the lug goes between the barrel nut and the action, and the barrel nut screws up tight against the lug, why would the relationship between the breechface and the bolt head change? Draw it on paper if you're having a hard time grasping the concept. You could put a 4" thick recoil lug on the barrel if you had enough threads, and the barrel would still headspace in the exact same spot.
All of the barrels I've checked tonight have enough threads from the factory to run at least a .375 lug with threads left over.
I believe what Dennis is saying is that the barrel nut would bottom out with a .500" lug and the breach face of the barrel would not sit far enough into the action to allow a proper headspace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
Exactly what I am stating.Quote:
I believe what Dennis is saying is that the barrel nut would bottom out with a .500" lug and the breach face of the barrel would not sit far enough into the action to allow a proper headspace.
I am having trouble understanding peterf225's statement:If you put a 4" thick recoil lug on the barrel, there is definetly not enough threads to start the barrel threads on the action. The barrel threads are only 1.060" long. You screw the barrel nut on the barrel all the way, and if you use a 4" recoil lug, NO threads will show up to start threading the barrel on the action.Quote:
Since the lug goes between the barrel nut and the action, and the barrel nut screws up tight against the lug, why would the relationship between the breechface and the bolt head change? Draw it on paper if you're having a hard time grasping the concept. You could put a 4" thick recoil lug on the barrel if you had enough threads, and the barrel would still headspace in the exact same spot.
I am trying to understand what you are saying. Maybe my statement will bring more light to the subject.
Dennis
Dennis you might want to go back and read who made what comments. I was interrupting what you said and you agreed.
Let me try to clear this up. Dennis is saying with X amount of threads you will not be able to use a .5 inch lug. Hotolds442 is saying with unlimited threads it makes no difference how thick the lug is. Both are correct and it is all just in how you look at it although Dennis was a bit confusing in his post and it did appear to lean more toward what happens with a 700/clone.
Go nutless and use any lug you wish to use. The Savage barrel nut is nothing more or less than a movable shoulder. The shoulder can be anywhere you want it to be if you go nutless but the amount of barrel threading on a nutted barrel limits the thickness of the recoil lug which can be used.
There is NO need for a .500" recoil lug though.
I greatly dislike the Tikka T3 for any number of reasons but there is no question that they are exceptionally accurate rifles. The T3 recoil lug (I call it a luggette) is insanely small with a tiny amount of contact area but the accuracy is still there.
But going to a shouldered barrel limits you to " the barrel, the lug, the action and the bolt/bolthead" and nothing can be changed. With a nutted barrel everything can be changed in just a few minutes with the correct tools and without a lathe or gunsmith. Saying you are limited to the amount of barrel threading on a nutted barrel is saying all available space on the barrel for threads is used up. There is only so much room on lets just say a sporter barrel for threads shouldered or nutted. The nutted is just easier to make adjustments to if you change something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
I'll wager I can change a fitted shouldered barrel more quickly than you can change a nutted Savage barrel and I won't need to use a set of go/no-go gauges every time I swap barrels either. My barrel stampings/engravings are always clocked correctly and I have the clean lines so appropriate to a high quality firearm.Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
If I desired to I could easily have barrels and boltheads for the three major rim sizes and swap between them in a flash. I don't do this because I prefer to have more rifles rather than more barrels and boltheads.
Many here, and understandably, find the Savage barrel nut to be one of the finest features on a Savage. I on the other hand dislike it greatly and eliminate every one. Having the machinery and the know-how to thread and chamber a barrel makes eliminating them easy for me.
I'll take your wager but we are going to use my action for all the swaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
This is the major fail of the shouldered barrel swap. A single barrel is married to a single action.
I can take any of my nutted barrels and swap them amongst any of my actions.
You may be able to change a barrel faster than i can BUT I can change the thickness of the recoil lug and maintain proper headspace or swap actions all out in the field with just a barrel nut wrench and a cartridge which you can not do which now makes your bet null and void or in other words you lose. And to show the ability of the barrel nut system i will use 3 barrels and 3 different thickness lugs and allow anyone to mix and match. Can you do that? I may not have printing lined up on the barrel like a factory barrel but i can do all that and continue to safely use my weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
No, multiple barrels can be mated to the same action and in the field I don't need to have any headspace gauges either.
If I wished to, and I don't, I could have any number of barrels for each action and if I kept the recoil lugs paired with their barrels I can use any lug thickness I want. Why a guy would want to switch around lug thicknesses is beyond me since the stock is bedded for one recoil lug.Quote:
Originally Posted by earl39
On top of that my shouldered rigs look immeasurably better than the nutted ones.
I also can spec my reamer however I please to suit my bullet and COAL. Not something often done on a prefit where you get a standard SAAMI chamber cut with a reamer who knows how old. My reamers are always brand new. I can also spec my contour, my cylindrical shank, my crown, and I can order a barrel from ANY barrel maker.
Keep using your prefits, it's no matter to me but I'll continue to custom thread, chamber and fit my barrels without the wart.
You didn't read what I said. Each of your barrels are mated to a specific action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
You cannot use one of your barrels on multiple actions. Only the action it is mated to.
Not necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by geargrinder
I could have any number of actions for each barrel with the dimensional differences to the bolt face being accommodated by varying the thickness of the recoil lug. Easy to do on my surface grinder. Only the recoil lug needs to stay mated with the action.
But you guys are right, the barrel nut suits many people very well. Especially if they hate gunsmiths. I like gunsmiths.
My guess is we ain't gonna see D'Arcy Echols make one of his Legend rifles with a barrel nut any time soon.
Finally, my original post in this thread was not to start a urination match. The OP had a specific problem and I suggested ONE possible course of action to solve his problem.
We all said that about Remington, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
Only the cheap, crappy Remingtons. No barrel nuts on the 700.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotolds442
And an Echols Legend is in an entirely different universe than even the 700.
You also suggested that the nutless system is superior. What was being pointed out was that there are pros/cons of each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Savage6x284
What you are talking about is a much more complicated process than any of the normal DIY folks around here have the ability to perform. I left my surface grinder in my other pants.