How many of you IMR 4064 users seen proven signs of 4064 being temp sensitive.:confused:
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How many of you IMR 4064 users seen proven signs of 4064 being temp sensitive.:confused:
1 degree of temp change usually adds/subtracts 1 fps in my experience. 2 moa difference at 800 yds from 38 degrees to 72 degrees. That's a 308 with a 178 amax.
Ive found it to be very consistent for me. I use it in 223, 22-250, 243 & 308
Do a search for work done by Dr. Denton Branwell, he's a member over at shooters.
Has done a ton of good, honest scientific testing.
So when someone like, oh say Hodgdon, tells you their powders are insensitive...
In most cases that "difference" isn't a statistically valid difference. And extruded powders can ONLY exhibit that trait in a very specific set of circumstances; the issue is they aren't very forthcoming with that info.
For example, Varget is designed to be magic in the 308 with 150gr bullets. But it really stinks when used in the 223.
Heat soak is the big issue, and what people trend to blame on powder.
I personally think the whole "temperature sensitive" thing is way over-analized. If anyone has developed a load that is bone nuts perfect at 30 degrees F but will blow the rifle apart at 75 degrees F, your problem isn't temperature sensitivity, it is sanity.
This is more or less what my train of thought is.
Past weekend I was sending 175,s out to distance from 100 out to 1100. The day,s temps were in the 70,s.... By the time I started sending them out from 9 on out, my poi was high. Instead of adjusting my elev which I know for a fact is spot on, I grab,d another box of rds out of my gun bag which was shaded and away from the sun light. I sent the 1st rd and could instintly feel the difference. I landed 1 shot hits from 900/1000/1100 after I made the switch.
My belief is that you do infact have propellants that are temp sent. but wont show it untill you start sending them out to distance.....say 700 and out futher.
I've burnt lots of 4064, but I've never shot any of it in the COLD!??, in MAX loads for the '06 in 100* temps out in the desert I never saw issues while shooting Jack rabbits?, not very scientific?, but if it didn't work for me I wouldn't have stuck with it for 25+ years now?
I think it is mildly more temp sensitive than varget, I have only noticed it in big temp swings like I have had a certain load that was great at 80 degrees, then not quite as fast at 40 degrees. I wonder if some of the difference you are seeing is the actual cartridge temperature changing neck tension just a bit possibly adding to the variables.
I'm sure you have, as have many others. And with any repeatable testing you would see that from a true "sensitivity" standpoint, that is a terrible application for Varget.
The fact that you have had good results with it in that setting speaks directly to my point. If more people would do their own testing, and learn their craft; discussions about "important" issues they don't understand would go away.
Im getting ready to start dealing with the heat of the great southwestern part of Tx (again)...........Last yr, it was the norm to be shooting in 100 plus dg weather. I adjusted accordingly with powders such that of Varget/Rl-15/Tac/4350 but this will be my 1st summer using 4064.
4064 has showed me great results out to distance but its been pretty cool in these parts. Im looking forward to using it. Seeing as how I cant get any of the powders Im used to here locally Ill start up another load with another powder.
I have loaded IMR 4064 for both winter deer hunting and summer varminting. I did not shoot the load during the opposite season. All loads performed well with great accuracy and velocity and with no noticeable variation that could be due to temperature sensitivity. It was the best powder I have used in a .220 Swift and worked well in .30-06 with 150-165 grain bullets. I quit 4064 because to the long kernels and inconsistent metering. Now I have bought a jug of AA4064 and hope I get the virtues of IMR4064 without the problem.
Metering 4064 sure does require some work. ive used it before in the past but I oppted for another propellant for that same reason. I cant find what I usually run so 4064 is the powder for now. Thanks for the insight on your use of the powder. Im interested in how that AA4064 works for you. Keep me posted. The lgs has plenty of that powder in stock. be as it may, its gonna be along time before I run out of the 8lb jug of 4064.
Burned several kegs of 4064 in a 308, but no more.
For better or worse, while I still have one choice; I'll support the last private Merican plant I can.
Although General Dynamics owns and operates the(former) IMR plant in Canada, I'm trying to support the american plant they own in St. Marks.
Relatively recently, GD completely changed that Canadian plants production process. 4064 is no longer a super long thin stick, and some granules are almost spherical-ish.
I have 3 lbs of this "new" IMR 4064 that I bought a few years ago. It is a mix of long sticks, longer sticks, short sticks and some flattened ball powder. Some of the sticks were 1/2 inch long.
I contacted Hodgdon about this several months ago, thinking it was contaminated. They wanted a small sample which I sent, but I never heard back.
An internet search turned up a few discussions about this. It appears some lots are blended to obtain the desired burn rate.
I have tried this powder in 308, 7mm-08 and 243 Win. Very pleasantly surprised at the groups I have gotten with this. Charges are the same as before.
More recent 4064 I have gotten is like the old stuff.
Yes, gotta remember a few things about canister grade powders; and Hodgdon/other blender resellers.
Canister grade(What the reloader buys) is typically blended lots of surplus powders to begin with. With some of the very "old" powders, they are production run contracted runs. Given the production change in Canada, it's reasonable to assume that Hodgdon is blending various parts and pieces to make product. That is speculation, but consistent with what blenders/resellers(like hodgy) do. Be nice too here of some very current lots.
The nice thing is that cutting extruded kernals won't effect their burning rate.
Something i wonder about....
One of GD's specialities, is making things happen and quickly. When Olin spun off Primex(the Florida ball powder plant), GD REALLY ran with it. And ball powder is a much faster process than extruded anyway. Well ATK had an agreement with Rhinemetal for extruded powder tech. That didn't seem to be terribly fruitful, ad they struggled to keep production at the Radford Arsenal. So GD was brought in to get it straight. So it really wasn't a huge surprise when ATK lost that contract to BAE. GD also picks-up the extruded IMR plant in Canada. And Thales calls up GD for powder tech help with their ADI ectruded plant in Australia. Makes me wonder if they aren't up to some "hybridization" work...
Sorry if i rambled.
Interesting--I've had several 1 lber's and they have all been the same long stick with no variations. There must be a time frame which is associated with the serial/stamps? I just perused through my rather diverse collection of powders--it appears that almost nothing is made in the US--except for Hodgdon's "Superformance" which is a mystery powder that may or may not be similar to what Hornady uses/manufactures for it's ammo? This sounds like commercial reloading powder is highly vulnerable to production vagaries (as we have experienced in the past couple of years).
Must not be cost effective to make propellants in the states?.....
I got so used to metering with Varget/RL-15 for yrs. Last 5 lb,er of RL-15 I was able to get was 2 days before the mishap @ Sandy Cook.
Cant find RL-15 or Varget here locally so thats why I oppted for 4064. Its a dam good propellant but a pain to work with.
I sometimes wish I was a mad scientist with the capabilty of measuring exact burn rates of propellants in the comfort of my garage. jk...
RL 15 and varget have showed up again at my LGS. I think hit or miss is going to be the way of life from here on in--another driving force in hoarding behavior.
The local gun range had Varget in one pound and in 8 pound canisters. when the crisis hit, the nice gent/manager at the lgs/range put a limit as to the amount you could buy per visit, understandably so. a couple of weeks go by and i had intentions on buying an 8lb can but there was none to be found. the manager advised me that "some" club member was buyng the 8lb-ers he had in stcok and reselling them for a profit. "that" member was banned from the gun club but it left everybody high and dry. the manager said he would no longer attempt to get 8lbers of varget any more.
this hole hoarding thing sure is a pain.
if anything?..............its made me shoot more conservetably.
sure would like to get my hands on a 5lb jug of RL-15. Im down to about 2lbs of it. I develope,d darn good loads with that powder and have become very fond of it.......but then again, I guess nothen last forever....
There is only one private (non Gov't owned) powder plant in the US, that is the General Dynamics ball powder plant in St. marks, FL. Superformance is canister grade powder, ammo makers don't use canister grade powder; just the reloaders(us).
So all Hodgdon & Win ball powders come from that plant. I don't know the Accurate line well enough, but 2700=414=760; so at least that one too.
Alliant's USA made powders WERE made by ATK in the Militarys Radford Arsenal, since they lost the contact to run the plant; I don't know if BAE will continue that.
Unless it is a "contract" production run, when I say "made by", I mean the non-canister parent.
As an example: SMP 842 is where CFE223 comes from.
http://www.gd-ots.com/ballpowder_military.html
great info.
Because of my location, theres a large bundle of snipers stationed here @ Ft Bliss in El Paso, Tx. They often shoot with us out in the desert valleys on there days off. Gives me a chance to jaw with them and shoot against them. makes for a great sunday. several of them have told me that they do infact use 4064 along with 175gr SMK,s for some on there sniper rifles. Which one,s skip my mind at present but Im sure the miltary version of 4064 is different than from what us civilians/reloaders get.
Real nice group of youngsters. Several of them have done 3-4 tours. They come out often but as usual move on to other base,s.
I use a lot of alliant since it usually works well and works for a wide range of calibers. It appears they import from different sources--I have some canisters that say made in Sweden--others Switzerland, and some neither but with a Virginia address (which I assume is the importer/processor).
Besides the effect of temperature on muzzle velocity, another factor to consider is the effect on barrel time based on whether you are centered in a good charge node or not. You know if you do an OCW/ladder test that at some charges a deviation of a few tenths grain can cause a significant change in the POI, which could have more downrange influence than the velocity effect alone.
Yes, but a a spotter may not help much when you are hunting; first shot better count. On another post the OP is contemplating zeroing in Fla for a hunt in Co, only to use the ballistics calcs to account for the many differences (ie not re-zeroing in Co).
charlie and yobuck
I agree with both of you guys without a dought. Im not a hunter though. Target shooting is my drug of choice. In the mountain valleys where I shoot distance, I have targets permanetly set up from 100 out to 1300. The targets from 900 on out have growth around them to the point that you wont be able to see splash from miss,s. I did "however" find a bald spot at 970 yds where I can actually place a 8"x6" steel target thats stake,d to the ground that electronically activates L.E.D. lights when the targets are hit. They have to be dead on hits to activate the alarm system. I like using that small target to make sure Ive called the wind correctly because i can see splash from miss,s. All targets are electronically activated when hit from 900 on out to 1300.course there bigger targets 16"x16".
I developed the alarms because I got tired of spotters incorrectly calling shots. At one point in time, before I developed the alarms, I found myself having to film myself with my Digigtal HD Camcoder zoomed in at 700. the spotter kept insisting of no hits becuase either he couldnt seee, or he didnt hear the impact of the rd. Seeing as how I was shooting 150gr smks, the hits werent pronounced. Once I got home and pluged the camera into my 52" Hd tele, and invited him over for a look, he changed his train of thought. In he defense,it is hard to hear the hits and at times the steels arent painted over again to see the hits
Sounds like a nice setup you have there! Have you watched the extensive Youtube series Sniper101 by Tiborosorus Rex? He presents a lot of practical information, especially about long-range-ballistic calculations, and one of the episodes dealt with ambient temperature effect on muzzle velocity and the need to have your calcs setup for that. I have done a lot of work with load development based on Optimum Barrel Time (OBT) as related to the results from OCW and found excellent correlation to use this as a tool; and a finding with that process is the extreme sensitivity of POI to the slightest deviation in charge if you are between nodes. That is the factor which is not accounted for when evaluating the effect of temperature by just considering velocity alone, but I don't have a good answer except be sure you are loaded in a wide node.
Our set up is nice. Took alot of back breaking workand time to get it done though. If I had more time and $$, Id make electronic alarm systems for targets from 7 on out. but the way I see it, I think I have enuff for now. Getting ahold of the electronics I need to make the alarm systems is getting thin. I work at an automotive dealership where Im able to get the processors,wiring,sensors for nothien but Ive used all the ones up. There protable and can use them anywhere. Rex is dead on as far as shooting in different temps. Ive got my ballistic calculations dialed in from 40dg,s to 100dg,s @ 10dg temp diff. Ive gone out to the mountain valleys and purposely froze my a** off just to see for myself what happens to the flight of my pills at colder temps. Were not used to the cold weather here. Im glad I did take the time to send-em out to diatance in cold weather.
On this barrel time you speak of....is it optimum/consistant temps of the barrel?
charlie for a traditional type hunter your correct. but for a long range hunter a spotter is extremly important.
for a traditional hunter shooting at closer distances what difference does all this make anyway?
as for not rezeroing that would be unwise.
"On this barrel time you speak of....is it optimum/consistant temps of the barrel?"
For OBT there is a table developed by Chris Long that gives the barrel times (milli-seconds) for nodes based on shock wave propagation through the barrel. I used Quick Load to calculate the BT for ladder tests for 4 different 308 and 3 223 loads (bullets and powders) and found wide nodes on the targets agreed well with the OBT / Quick Load calculated points. So at this point I am convinced the science is sound; doesn't account for everything but gets you close. I know Quick Load has a provision to alter load temperature but I have not worked with that at all so I don't have an opinion as to how well it predicts that aspect. From other reading, the impact of load temp on velocity has not been as well documented as many other factors in terms of thorough data.
The stuff I knew WAS made at Radford was shotgun/pistol powder.
With that contract change in mind, here is who actually builds powder(parent/ non-canister grade)
I know there is at least one former com-bloc company producing, but that I can tell no canister grade stuff hits our shelves in any quantity.
General Dynamics - American defense contractor that makes all Canadian-made IMR rifle powders, all Winchester Ball powders, some Accurates, and some Hodgdons.
ATK (American defense company that apparently makes all American-made Alliant powders) - although maybe not now.
Thales (French State-owned company that owns ADI, makes all of Hodgy's "Extreme" rifle powders, plus some IMRs)
Rheinmetall (German owner of Nitrochemie. Makes Reloder-17. Don't know about other commercial powders)
UI just tried IMR 4064 for the first time today & I'm impressed. Shot a group that was less than 3/8" at 100 with 41.9 under a 175 SMK out of my Rem 700 SPS with 26" barrel. Best I could do with Varget was about 5/8". Temp was about 45 degrees. When it warms up again I'll test & post results.
BW
Yes it is 1-12 twist. I shoot a silhouette match once a month out to 1000 yds.& I've hit 10 out of 18. My gun seems to like the slower node which means longer barrel life. :) My shooting buddy just bought a Savage 6br & I'm on the fence about the same purchase. Now if only I could get the CFO to ....................................
BW
Nope!! 2535 is the best I could get. I thought it would be more also since I get 2750 with 42.8 of Varget. Stretched out the ladder today & found another good spot(3/8 inch) at 42.2. Made some at 41.9, 42.0, 42.1 & 42.2 to try tomorrow. Maybe I can get in between somewhere.
BW
42.2gr 4064 with 175 gr SMK in Win cases, is what I use in my Supermatch M1A. About 2550 fps
Getting back to the OP--I've always wondered how temperature performance of a powder can be quantitatively measured in a reliable way by the average hand loader. All other things being equal (altitude, humidity etc.) cold air is denser than warm air and I would think be a major factor in bullet flight?
The ballistic calculation programs include the effects of altitude, temperature, etc. From the various ones I have looked at, they pretty much give you the same result for the same inputs. For the inputs the effect of ambient temperature on muzzle velocity must also be known as well, especially for long-range. You can determine this by intentionally changing the temperature of the loaded round by heating/cooling, measuring the temp with an IR gun, and a chrono for velocity; check out Youtube Sniper101 for a demonstration.
indeed.....cold air is defently denser. (for me)...I see the cold temp playing its roll when sending rds out to distance. Ive gone out in low 40,s and sent them out to 1K and sure enuff, there falling short. I had my ballistics data handy and dialed it up for those temps. If I remember I was 2moa low. I had my loads in my truck under the comfort of the trucks heater keeping me and the rds relatively warm.
I've had the same problem. We shoot at 7:30 am & the temp is usually colder here I the desert hence my dope is a tad short in the cold especially at 1000.
BW
indeed.....Id rather shoot in cooler climates. Im not looking forward to the upcomming summer this season. We havent really had a "winter"..yet here in the Tx southwest. Coldest its got was down to maybe 31dg. Days are in the 60-75dg. Ive got a gut feeling thats its gonna be a hot one this summer.
I still have some Varget and worked up a load with 150 SMK,s for my Mil Spec FCP-HS. Hit paydirt with 44.0gr going 2844fps, 70dg weather,3800ft altitude,and a 3/8" 4 shot pattern.
Ill keep my 4064 for the 175,s and my 10 FCP-K. I just have to make a mental note and do the common sense thing and keep the rds out of direct sun light. Think Ill piss the ole lady off and use her little micro ice chest to keep my rds in........lolol
It's crazy 8 hours away we have had the most winter we have had in 30 years!