11 VT Shoots Off Bore-Line - (NOT SCOPE MOUNTS)

I recently purchased an 11VT, and have a serious problem with it. I'll resending it back in for Savage to repair, but wanted to see if anyone else has seen this:

I brought it home, installed my Larue mount, and my Vortex Viper with Warne Steel Rings. I bore sighted it with my Laserlyte, then headed to the range. When I got to the range, I placed my target out at the 25 yard line. Fired, and saw NOTHING on the paper. OK, so, I pulled the bolt, eyeballed the target and confirmed that the scope was indeed co-witnessing the bore picture. Hmmm...must have pulled it. Fired again. Again, no hole in the target, anywhere. I aimed dead center, between the two red zeroing targets and found my hole a foot to the right of where I had the scope pointed. This is odd. Remember, the scope IS co-witnessing the bore. The mount alignment is insignificant at this range, and a confirmed co-witness. So, I adjusted my reticule, and fired a nice 3 round group into the V ring.

I took the target to the 100 yard line and fired. Once again, nothing on paper. The guy next to me saw that my bullets were impacting a few feet to the Right. I took up the rest of the horizontal movement from the scope (it's got 60 MOA of horizontal adjustment) and it still was not on paper. So, I figured there may be something wrong with the scope. That was a couple weeks ago. I brought it home, and changed over to my 100 MOA Bushnell. I also installed the action into a Choate Tactical stock...not a tupperware fan.

Today, I hit the range again. Both scopes with me, and 40 rounds of fresh Hornady 53 grain factory loads. Once again, same ritual. Pulled the bolt, confirmed co-witness of scope and bore, shoot. Nothing on paper at 25 yards. I aimed all the way to the left side of the target and landed on paper on the right side of the target. About 2 feet off. I adjusted the scope to match, fired and was in the bull. FORTUNATELY, it has recently snowed. I could see my bullet impacting on the back stop of the range. It was impacting about 6 feet to the RIGHT of where it should have been Dead on at 25 yards, but about 6 feet off to the right at 100. The bullets have to be spinning off center. I also confirmed with a laser cartridge and a lazarlyte that the barrel is reasonably straight. My guess is that the rifling is bad, or the crown is distorting the tail of the bullet.

Any other guesses? I't s going back to Savage, so hopefully they'll tell me...but I've never seen this sort of thing.

Once again guys: It is NOT a mis-aligned scope mount or bent barrel. The bullet is moving in a sideways arc, to the Right. Almost like drop, but sideways. :)

I have a BVSS 223 that is several years old now and I experienced your same issue with it when I first got it
Sent it back to Savage, a couple of weeks later had it back with a new barrel
They did not tell me what was wrong, just that it needed a new barrel which was ok with me as it was a real shooter on return
Sorry you are having trouble but they will get it straightened out for you ( I think some bad ones just slip through)
Jack

More for my info than a suggestion : a damaged/crooked cut crown wouldn't be this consistant , would it ? I wouldn't expect ANY kind or grouping, right/wrong ?

There have been cases of warped actions, so that's a possibility.

I don't know. If it's distorting the tail of the bullet the same every time, it may still group at 25 yards. I can't really tell how big the group is at 100. You may be right though.

Thanks!
Tim

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Originally Posted by scpaul

More for my info than a suggestion : a damaged/crooked cut crown wouldn't be this consistant , would it ? I wouldn't expect ANY kind or grouping, right/wrong ?

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That's what I figure. The barrel of maybe the action. Most likely the barrel. I've had a few savages over the years, and all of them were great shooters. I did have two with the crooked scope mounts, but nothing that couldn't be compensated for with a little smithing.

Thanks,
Tim

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Originally Posted by JW

I have a BVSS 223 that is several years old now and I experienced your same issue with it when I first got it
Sent it back to Savage, a couple of weeks later had it back with a new barrel
They did not tell me what was wrong, just that it needed a new barrel which was ok with me as it was a real shooter on return
Sorry you are having trouble but they will get it straightened out for you ( I think some bad ones just slip through)
Jack

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You say you used a laserlyte to boresight,a laser is a straight line.If you had a bent bbl or a warped action I think the only distance that they would coinside would be the distance that you initially set them at,right? Paul

You are correct. But, the Laser is pointing to a spot which must be the initial direction of the bullet's flight, when it exits the bore. The laser's purpose is initial scope installation, and to get the bullet's POI on paper...within a few inches or so of the V ring. I do this exercise dozens of times per year. Literally dozens of times per year.

And, don't forget that when I get to the range, I pull the bolt and cofirm the bore-sight by actually looking through the bore, to the target, and ensure that the scope's reticule is in sync. I do this, just in case I banged the scope or something on my way to the range. Since a bullet's flight SHOULD be relatively straight for 25 yards, given a TINY amount of spin drift, wind, ect. the POI should be on a 12"X24" target SOMEWHERE...but it is not. When I finally move the windage all the way to the Right (30 MOA from mechanical zero on the Vortex), I can get the POI where I aim (at 25 yards.) At 100 yards, the bullet POI is comedically to the right, even when on taget at 25 yards. The bullet is moving in a left to right arc. It's actually flying like a cuve-ball. I've only seen this once before, in Safwan Iraq. An old SKS with a warped barrel was spinning bullets in a big arc like this. I can't wait to see what Savage says when htye get it.

Thanks,
Tim

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Originally Posted by scpaul

You say you used a laserlyte to boresight,a laser is a straight line.If you had a bent bbl or a warped action I think the only distance that they would coinside would be the distance that you initially set them at,right? Paul

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I'm not buying this "curve ball" nonsense...bullets only drop. Even bowed barrels will shoot straight once the bullet exits the barrel.

I've put a lot of barrels on Savage actions and shot them. Bore sighting at 100 yards, bore centered on black, scope centered windage and 6"=8" low, ALMOST always the 1st shot is on the paper. BUT. Just tried a barrel that, with bore centered on black, the scope is aiming ~1 foot low and 1 foot left when bullets hit center. I think that this is a bent barrel.
I bet your barrel is bent.
joe b.

Now I'm not a gun smith or anything to get real technical, but I would have to believe that if the barrel was bent you would probably have some pressure signs or something of the sort. Maybe you have an uneven recoil lug or action face that didn't allow the barrel to line up properly? Maybe it needs a t&t job.

Sumpin don't sound right to me.

If the bull is centered in the bore and centered in the reticle at the same time, the bullet should go through the bull and the reticle should (still) have the bull in the crosshairs.

Don't take this wrong, but...have you done this before?

Sounds like a bad muzzle crown to me. Even with the bore and scope lining up perfectly on paper, a bad crown could push the bullet off course.

When any projectile spins end over end, it moves in a curve. Like a gold ball slicing. Also, if the rear of the bullet is damaged, it will fly in a non-striaght path. The bullets do in fact fly in a curve. it's not nonsense. It's physics.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I'm not buying this "curve ball" nonsense...bullets only drop. Even bowed barrels will shoot straight once the bullet exits the barrel.

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Yeah. Many times over the last 30+ years of shooting. If it sounded "right" I would be shooting the rifle, and not posting odd bullet flight pattern posts. :)

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Originally Posted by 1.618

Sumpin don't sound right to me.

If the bull is centered in the bore and centered in the reticle at the same time, the bullet should go through the bull and the reticle should (still) have the bull in the crosshairs.

Don't take this wrong, but...have you done this before?

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Bore sight
Match optic to poa from above, use muzzle or chamber laser to confirm poa.
Does the poa from #1 match somewhat to #2?
Now shoot

I agree. The crown or maybe a non-round squeeze-point in the bore are the only two things that I can imagine would distort a bullet enough to cause a non traditional flight.

I called Savage today. The rifle has been there a week, and I wanted an update. Apparently, the rifle just made it from receiving to the service/repair department on the 24th. They received the rifle on the 18th. Four business days to get from receiving to service...hmmm. Anyway, it has not been looked sat yet. The CS rep told me that it would take 6-7 weeks for them to service the rifle and get it back to me. That's disappointing. If they'd spend 2 extra hours in QC, up front, it could all be avoided. Anyway, a couple months is too long, so I'll just go buy another one for the mean time, and work this one out when it finally gets back. I'll just buy a 308 so the money isn't wasted. I really should have just ordered a Shilen 1:8 barrel to replace the stock one instead of trusting the warranty.
Live and learn, I guess.

It's sad really. I have had several Savages over the years. This one, and the last one have had quality issues. Before that, they were are great shooters.

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Originally Posted by AZ_GUN_NUT

Sounds like a bad muzzle crown to me. Even with the bore and scope lining up perfectly on paper, a bad crown could push the bullet off course.

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As I have stated, I did all of that. That's the problem. POI does NOT match the bore line. POI is several feet to the Right of the bore at 100 yards, using both a chamber laser and a muzzle laser (which both confirm the same POA). The bullet is not flying straight. I wish it were as simple as a mis-drilled action. That's easy to detect and correct.

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Originally Posted by Stockrex

Bore sight
Match optic to poa from above, use muzzle or chamber laser to confirm poa.
Does the poa from #1 match somewhat to #2?
Now shoot

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Maybe you should shoot some tracers to see this curve ball effect?

Interesting.

I just took my 111 LRH in 6.5-284 out for its first shooting.

I have a muzzle bore sight that uses a barrel sized pin to hold the mirror in place at the crown end. I didn't have enough elevation to bring the scope down to line up on center, but I was able to line it up left to right. Took the rifle to the range. Set the target at 50 yards. Loaded the rifle into a lead sled. Pulled the bolt, and confirmed that bore lined up to the target with the scope. Scope was reading a little low at 50 yards from where the muzzle sight lined it up. For spits and giggles, I put the bore sight back in, same thing, now the elevation is showing above the targeting grid. Pull and recheck very carefully. Bore through the bolt matches the view through the scope.

Load a single round. Pull the trigger and...nothing. Dial up the scope magnification and spot the lone hole in the target backer and a foot to the right.

Dial in some windage. Load another round, line it all up...still nothing. Dial magnification back up. Hole in the backer 6 inches to the right of the edge of the target.

Dial in the last of the windage available to the scope. To be safe, I lined the scope up on the left edge of a 12" shoot and see target with sighting grid. Load a round. An inch right of center. Load another round. Just above the last round. The next 3 rounds make a 1 inch group.

Scrub the bore. Run a couple of patches.

Take two of the 12 inch targets. Line up dead center on the matching edges of the two targets. Next 5 rounds go into a 3/4" group.

Put an orange sticker over the group, and move the target out to 100 yards.

Line up dead between the two targets again. First shot hits 3 inches to the right of the center of the right target.

Line the scope up one dot to the right on the reticle. Next 4 shots print a half inch group.

Clean the barrel again. I have cleaned it now between each 5 shot group.

Sight in again. Still get same point of impact, but the group shrank to just under a half inch.

The muzzle bore sight shows the reticle is way to the right of the target grid.

Scope rail is a Blackhawk standard picatinni rail. Since my shooting at the moment is limited to 200 yards, my scope is adjustable to 250 yards (BSA 1-16x44 IR with adjustable parallax to 250yrds) on my .308 it is perfect with a clean sight picture at 200. And I can see the spots on the shoot n see when I hit at 200.

My thoughts:

Bad rings? But why do they work perfect on the .308 they were taken off of.

Rail not cut right? Possible, could be aligning to the left a degree or two.

Holes in the receiver not aligned to the bore? Possible, off to the left a few degrees.

Barrel not aligned with the receiver? Possible off to the right a couple of degrees.

I did notice after I got back home! the stock is rubbing just a touch on the barrel right at the tip of the forearm on the left side. That might be pushing the barrel to the right. I didn't notice it when I tore the action down for cleaning after unboxing. When it was reassembled, a business card would slide from tip to receiver with only a couple of tight spots. Not enought to stop the business card, but enough to make it drag. I checked the action screws at the range and all were still tight. I plan on taking it apart, re-assembling and again checking for tight spots. Once I mark them, I will pull the assembly, and sand the channel until there are no tight spots.

I read through the tightening sequence Thomae posted for the accustock. Used an inch pound torque wrench for tightening. Not a fat wrench, but it was accurate +\- 1inlb a couple of months ago when Snap On checked it for me.

What have I left out?

I am posting here rather than starting a new thread since they seem to read as similar problems.

The gun has been at Savage being repaired since the 18th. None of the local ranges would allow a tracer even if I had it. :)

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Maybe you should shoot some tracers to see this curve ball effect?

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"pinsnscrews", in your case, I would consider the BSA scope "the first indication of trouble" ????....;-((

Well, here's my take: If your reticule is aligned with your bore through whatever means, the Windage should be very close, depending on wind, spin drift, or Coriolis Effect on LONG North/South shots (nothing to speak of on 200 yard shots). If the POI does not closely match the bore-line (windage wise) you have a problem.

Your action to stock issue (barrel touching the stock) is not likely causing this issue. That issue would most likely manifest in big groups, because the barrel harmonics would not be consistent...basically you'd be adding an unstable node on the barrel that would alter the final antinode shot to shot which would open up the groups. You wouldn't likely get a sub-MOA if that was your problem.

Scope alignment issues with the mis-drilled actions do NOT and CANNOT cause your POI to be different from the POA of the rifle bore.

I sent mine back to have Savage repair it. This is a quality issue with some of their barrels. I'm running out tomorrow to buy a new rifle, to replace this one, because Savage is backed up 6-7 weeks on warranty repair. When this one gets back, I'll install a Shilen barrel and be done with it.

I believe that yours is the fourth time I've seen "this issue" on a forum in the last few months on Savage barrels. They must have had a bad run, because they are usually very good shooters.

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Originally Posted by pinsnscrews

Interesting.

I just took my 111 LRH in 6.5-284 out for its first shooting.

I have a muzzle bore sight that uses a barrel sized pin to hold the mirror in place at the crown end. I didn't have enough elevation to bring the scope down to line up on center, but I was able to line it up left to right. Took the rifle to the range. Set the target at 50 yards. Loaded the rifle into a lead sled. Pulled the bolt, and confirmed that bore lined up to the target with the scope. Scope was reading a little low at 50 yards from where the muzzle sight lined it up. For spits and giggles, I put the bore sight back in, same thing, now the elevation is showing above the targeting grid. Pull and recheck very carefully. Bore through the bolt matches the view through the scope.

Load a single round. Pull the trigger and...nothing. Dial up the scope magnification and spot the lone hole in the target backer and a foot to the right.

Dial in some windage. Load another round, line it all up...still nothing. Dial magnification back up. Hole in the backer 6 inches to the right of the edge of the target.

Dial in the last of the windage available to the scope. To be safe, I lined the scope up on the left edge of a 12" shoot and see target with sighting grid. Load a round. An inch right of center. Load another round. Just above the last round. The next 3 rounds make a 1 inch group.

Scrub the bore. Run a couple of patches.

Take two of the 12 inch targets. Line up dead center on the matching edges of the two targets. Next 5 rounds go into a 3/4" group.

Put an orange sticker over the group, and move the target out to 100 yards.

Line up dead between the two targets again. First shot hits 3 inches to the right of the center of the right target.

Line the scope up one dot to the right on the reticle. Next 4 shots print a half inch group.

Clean the barrel again. I have cleaned it now between each 5 shot group.

Sight in again. Still get same point of impact, but the group shrank to just under a half inch.

The muzzle bore sight shows the reticle is way to the right of the target grid.

Scope rail is a Blackhawk standard picatinni rail. Since my shooting at the moment is limited to 200 yards, my scope is adjustable to 250 yards (BSA 1-16x44 IR with adjustable parallax to 250yrds) on my .308 it is perfect with a clean sight picture at 200. And I can see the spots on the shoot n see when I hit at 200.

My thoughts:

Bad rings? But why do they work perfect on the .308 they were taken off of.

Rail not cut right? Possible, could be aligning to the left a degree or two.

Holes in the receiver not aligned to the bore? Possible, off to the left a few degrees.

Barrel not aligned with the receiver? Possible off to the right a couple of degrees.

I did notice after I got back home! the stock is rubbing just a touch on the barrel right at the tip of the forearm on the left side. That might be pushing the barrel to the right. I didn't notice it when I tore the action down for cleaning after unboxing. When it was reassembled, a business card would slide from tip to receiver with only a couple of tight spots. Not enought to stop the business card, but enough to make it drag. I checked the action screws at the range and all were still tight. I plan on taking it apart, re-assembling and again checking for tight spots. Once I mark them, I will pull the assembly, and sand the channel until there are no tight spots.

I read through the tightening sequence Thomae posted for the accustock. Used an inch pound torque wrench for tightening. Not a fat wrench, but it was accurate +\- 1inlb a couple of months ago when Snap On checked it for me.

What have I left out?

I am posting here rather than starting a new thread since they seem to read as similar problems.

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He mentioned that the bore sight shows the bore pointing to the target, and the bullet striking far to the right. Not a scope, or mount issue. This exact issue has been discussed multiple times lately.

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

"pinsnscrews", in your case, I would consider the BSA scope "the first indication of trouble" ????....;-((

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10/4.......;-)

I thought I'd provide a quick update. I called Savage today and was informed that the Gunsmith had replaced the barrel and stock. The rifle was bore sighted, and roll-stamped???(I don't know what that means) and was on the range today to be tested. Anyway, I look forward to the end of this weird issue.