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Why does Savage have a Target action for Centerfire, but not rimfire? I don't see why they settle for being a "good bargain brand for the most part" in rimfire, but actually have a priority about serious accuracy in centerfire.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps7193082d.png
Your Mark I with a custom barrel, stock, and trigger doesn't shoot well?
I dunno if I'd say the centerfire Target Action is any more "serious" about accuracy than a standard repeater action. They all come off the same machines and are machined to the same tolerances and are assembled with the same parts, so they're no more special or accurate than a Stevens 200 action in that regard. You just pay a premium for an overly sensitive Target AccuTrigger, and band-aid fixed bolt handle and the "Target" in the name (kind of like how anything with tactical in it's name costs 20% more).
As for a serious target rimfire, Savage has been approached with just such an animal but thus far they haven't shown any real interest in it.
Are you implying that a Mark I is worth investing that sort of money and would be competitive on a level that centerfire Savage target actions are?Quote:
Originally Posted by KRP
Is that receiver threaded? The MK series action isn't exactly beefy... Flimsy in comparison to target actions actually. I guess I could lay down $400 on a custom barrel and then turn it down small to fit the Savage MK I action possibly harming the bore taking off that much, but then what custom trigger is available? Savage doesn't even make their Target AccuTrigger for rimfire. Jard doesn't make one for Savage rimfire. SSS doesn't offer one for the accutrigger models (if one is even comfortable ordering from them). Rifle Basix doesn't even go below a pound and I don't think the Apachee trigger kit does either. I don't know of a Jewell trigger that will fit a Savage rimfire. If there is one, I'll buy it tonight. We haven't even talked about ignition or the subtleties of the technicalities of the bolt.
Even if one went through all that you listed, do you think that it could actually score with 40X or a Turbo (or one of its clones) or a SPF action or even an Anschutz 54 for that matter? It's not a coincidence that there are brands/actions excluded on competitive benches...no one wants to lose.
http://www.americanrimfire.com/index...h_results/1354
Click on the Equipment list tab. That is the list of the equipment used at this past ARA Indoor national match. The only production actions I see on that list are 40X and Suhls. 14/79 actions. The rest being custom actions. If someone had a fixed up MK I action at that match I'm sure you could guess about where they would have placed. If it were centerfire and they were using a Savage Target action, they might would stand a chance.
But I'm not even talking strictly benchrest to be honest. I shot at NRA Smallbore Silhouette Southern Nationals the past couple of years. How many Savages were there? 1. Mine. What was there? Anschutz. A handful of CZs and a few Remington 541 series. One could use a Ruger 77, Sako, or a CZ and be fine (and it would be incredibly easy to acquire the list you provided for it. Heck there are drop in match barrels for them too).
Savage centerfires are significantly more accurate comparatively speaking to Savage rimfires. I've competed and done well with a Savage Model 12 BVSS in .223. I wonder how much better it would be with the significantly better trigger the Target action comes with, more real estate to properly bed with from that receiver, and an easy way for barrel attachment. Savage centerfire barrels aren't ignored in the aftermarket barrel. That sort of support is helpful. I think it's great that they sell the action alone and not really all that expensive either. If I wanted to build a BR rifle, I could buy the action and then the custom stock and the custom barrel instead of buying a full rifle for significantly more and piecing it together after the fact. I see the Savage centerfire target actions constantly between $500-600. I'd pay that right now for the rimfire equivalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Baker
Savage simply isn't investing anything into their rimfire lineup. I'd hate to bring up the success of the only effort I've seen in rimfire in a while. There aren't many defenders of the BMAG from what I can tell. I laughed when I held one and put it back. Consumers are buying barrels for their Encores and Volquarten just unveiled a beautiful model. That caliber isn't monopolized by Savage anymore. Savage attempts to hold on to lower priced market and tries to be the best available for that money. I hate to break to them, but Ruger is taking taking the floor with the American Series. CZs aren't invisible in that market either. Their following is nearly unrivaled.
You're right. They haven't shown interest. I'm saying they should. Not necessarily in the exact ways I want them to, because I'm not dumb enough to realize that I am in a niche market, but because I know that they have exhibited nothing but stagnation. That does not last. I once asked a CS representative on the phone this very question about their target action and she responded "you know, I really don't know why. I'll have to ask engineering." I'm just saying that they need to do something. Dressing up the same action over and over from the F to the G to the BV to the TR blah blah isn't going to cut it.
It sounds like I'm mad at or bashing Savage. I'm not. If anything I'm cheering harder for them than most people are willing to simply because there are other options. I like shooting with something other than what is expected; I'd just rather not have an inherent disadvantage because of it forcing people to laugh when they see it.
I'm not implying it's worth it, but I do think it could be competitive on the level of the centerfire target actions. The MKI would have to compete with Turbos/40Xs/etc., the centerfire actions have to compete with Bats/Stolles/etc.. Mr F summed it up well in that the target actions are really no different than the other Savage actions.
The target actions have considerably less metal cut out of them and therefore are definitely stiffer than any of the repeating actions. The machining may not be superior, but the design is. Far better to bed than a repeater too, with a huge contact surface where the magazine usually goes and the extra action screw.
+1 more metal ect
The Target actions are used in their Target Rifle series, but the remainder of the actions aren't the same. The fact that they come with a decent trigger and action only is a huge plus to me. That's something that isn't offered the rimfire crowd from Savage. Yes they're still production models so the tolerances won't be as tight as a custom action, but put a good barrel on it and I would say with confidence that it would have more accuracy potential than the vast majority of shooters can perform at.
Exactly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
Just because they're production doesn't mean they can't be utilized. I see many Remington 700 series actions do well. I see Anschutz do well...Kimber..Walther... It can be done.
I know what I'm asking for is of little interest to most people and that's fine. A simple beefing up of the receiver and threading it would be wondermous. The Ruger 10/22, 77/22, the CZ 455 are some of the most popular rimfire actions available today. They are decent out of the box, which Savage usually is too, but they are better designed making them worth investing into. Not only that, they are designed in such a way that they are easily upgraded. Savage just needs to look at their competitors and see what the difference is. You can only dress up the same action so many times in different stocks before consumers have all they want from Savage. I know I do.
Living in SE Michigan, we have the problem with rimfire restrictions for night hunting, even though we are overun with coyotes (and this applies to private land). I have bought 2 different 22WMR rifles so far, the first being a CZ 512 autoloader and the second being the Savage 93 in stainless / thumbhole laminate. I had some expectations of the Savage 93, but so far it has been a huge disapointment. The only reason I didn't buy a CZ bolt gun was because they only make blued weapons and the climate here during hunting season is brutal on blued weapons when you take them out every day and sometimes twice a day. Frost, condensation etc really takes its toll fast.
The CZ 512 did not group better than about 4-5MOA at 100 yards. The Savage 93 has not grouped better than 2" at 75 yards and the average is closer to 3". Now I have a 223 and a 308 and a 243 that I can all shoot to 1/2 MOA or better, so I do not feel this is shooter technique.
I really need an accurate 22mag for nighttime coyote hunting and we are right in the middle of the "season" and right now neither rifle will connect with any reliability at 100 yards. Any coyote that you miss, you will never be calling in again. I don't know what I am going to do. Perhaps get a CZ 455 and do the heretical thing of painting the barrel and action to protect it from the elements ? I need a solution that is going to work.
From a logistic standpoint this makes sense, more metal = more rigidity. But no matter what the project, be it a rifle action, a building, or truck frame (for examples) at some point you are just going to be stiffer than is needed for the job. Members here have compared target actions to sporter actions for accuracy and there is no real difference evident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
All that said, For 28" or less barrels of any contour I feel the standard actions are capable and rigid enough (even longer barrels of less that bull contour would be fine), but if I were going to hang say a 32"(or longer) full-bull barrel in a heavy hitting chambering, I would feel better with a closed top action.
As to the rimfire, I do agree that Savage needs to step up a bit and make it a little more upgradable. I am not sure if they will be able to grab enough of the market away from rifles like the 10-22, and I would bet that is Savage's concern as well. I am not sure that a total redesign would be in order, but a few changes to enable more upgrades would definitely be helpful.
Ironic. The most accurate Savage rimfire my family owns (across 7 of them) is a stainless Savage 93 in 17HMR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
You want stainless, rimfire, and a coyote killer? The 17WSM, but Volquartsen instead of BMAG.
https://www.volquartsen.com/products...emi-auto-rifle
http://www.varminter.com/forums/inde...attach_id=8950
From Volquartsen's Facebook.
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Would they take the entire market from the 10/22? I wouldn't ever think that, but consumers like variety. I have brands I'm loyal to, of course, but there is much appeal to variety. Especially when a rifle is modifiable enough to make it really personal. It wouldn't take much to really put Savage there I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by bootsmcguire
At $2000 it would be twice the price of any other rifle I own. I figure that even re-barreling a CZ one would be under $1000. But the Savage 93 action is such a piece of crap that I would not spend a cent on it. Looks like the Bmag just took it to the next level. Looks like I am going to have to send my first 2 attempts down the road and look for something a bit better in quality.
I can totally understand the price tag shock. It's why I won't be having one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
If you're looking to rebarrel the 455, Lilja makes a drop in for it. I love the Lilja I have on my 40X .22lr.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/cz_455.htm
At least Savage (and other makers) have seen the light and started using screws on the action instead of one on the action and then one as a barrel lug arrangement.
But as for needing a better action, it would certainly help, but I'm afraid it won't happen in the near future. Most rimfire manufacturers are looking at the $400 and under (real world price, not MSRP) category. Apparently, CZ is the only company who either can or is willing to make a "real" action in that price range.
If you're looking to take a "budget" rifle and turn it into a true competition rifle, the best choices out there are a used CZ 452 American (two action screws and no barrel lug screw on Americans) and have it rebarreled, or the no-gunsmithing option is the CZ 455 with a Lilja.
Edited to add: I'm also not trying to beat up on Savage, as I still buy Savage rimfires too, but I would like to see better come from the company. And I seriously believe there is a market out there for a true match quality rifle from Savage (or any mass manufacturer that beats them to it) as long as the price stays under that of an Anschutz 54.
It's hard to imagine Savage spending any time developing a precision rimfire platform after seeing the trainwreck they've got going right now with the B-Mag. It's too bad, because a target rimfire action would show they take rimfire seriously.
You can only change the barrel on the e-receiver so many ways, it's no different than putting different colored lipstick on a pig and expecting the public to be excited about it.
Unfortunately there's a HUGE gap in the rimfire market that none of the manufacturers are willing to address, and that's making a high quality, target grade precision rimfire rifle with a price in the $700 to $1,000 range. Something equivalent to the old Winchester Model 52 or the BSA Martini or a Remington Model 37 or 540x.
Just look at the prices people are paying for the older target grade rimfires like those mentioned above - most are bringing anywhere from $750 to well over $2,000 on the used market these days and if/when one does come up for sale it's snapped up almost instantly. Clearly there's a market for such guns, but the manufacturers refuse to recognize it claiming, "our market research doesn't' indicate that such a gun would sell well." Maybe that's because nobody has made one in over 60 years and the "market" is limited to the second-hand market which their researchers totally ignore.
+1 on what JB said
Absolutely. I recently purchased a Savage Anschutz 164 sporter for just shy of $600 for my girlfriend to shoot Silhouette with only because my attempts of doing it with a Savage MKII sporter disappointed me in accuracy.
Sadly, that gap seems to only get bigger.
How many here would be willing to pay $1000-1200 for a serious adult sized competition grade, or "heirloom" grade 22 rimfire? I'm talking one that would be comparable to a Rem 40-x, or a Win 52. One that is built here in the good ole USA...with good components and durable materials, no plastic. One that you would be proud to own and pass down to your kids,grand kids and even great grand kids. One that was modular with a selection of options. One that has the same heft and feel of a good center fire rifle. One that was built to higher standards with "old school" craftsmanship. One that will appreciate in value.
I truly believe there is a market for the above. At this time, no major U.S. manufacturer is filling this market, thus it is not recognized.
I want to change that.......feedback please.
Fred if u make it, I will buy it
It seems to me that in that price range ($1000-$1200) one already has the Sako quad
http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m...akoQuad-01.jpg
Not made in the USA, but I don't think I have anything against the Finns. The quad has easily changed barrels and there are replacements made by Lilja that are drop in. I believe some of the major gunsmith stores like Brownells carry the Lilja drop in barrels for a similar price to a savage prefit.
Absolutely I would. As I did when I bought my 40X .22lr and when I bought my 40X 7.62NATO. Both of those rifles were in the price range you listed and I would do it again.
The Sako Quad is a good option from what I've seen.
If you are under the impression that I had something up my sleeve...you'd be right. Unfortunately I don't think I'll be manufacturing it. The idea was for Savage to make it. But I did build a "proof of concept" prototype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockrex
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Fred,
This post is old, but I also would purchase the rimfire that you are talking about here.
I'd still be interested in such a rifle.
On a side note, my Select Match Shilen Ratchet barrel arrived for the Savage rifle I posted above. I'd rather it be on a superior action, but I will continue polishing a turd for the foreseeable future.
Only rim fire match i have are a Win. 52D and a Mossburg 144LS don't laugh this rifle a shooter as is the 52D
I asked Savage if their custom shop would work on an FV or FVT before shipping it, just a few simple processes, which I would willingly have paid for, such as lapping the barrel, polishing the bolt, etc., and they said that they would not do anything at all.
Not it that they didn't care to consider anything that would turn out a more accurate/competitive Mark II, they simply refused. I guess they are more in to the tactical rifle Benchrest shooters.
....
I would. Comp grade repeater no problem. My thought is either a Boyds pro varmint with a spacer system so I can shoot it and my kids can shoot it. I have been kicking the idea around of building my own custom action, but the time and tooling invested a grand is cheap. I think the Stiller action is $1200, a 40x will run at least that, anchuntz or other comp custom rim fires are even more. Hey Fred I need a lefty too!Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
I think with the ATK buy out, that may severely limit things, as many of the line got chopped out.
I have another brainstorm that I will be working on this winter. It will involve interchangable barrels and a lot of factory parts. Hopefully this project will address some of the short comings of the MII.
I should be getting some computer time eventually!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter
Your teasing us Fred!!Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpshooter