Confused with Axis 1:9 and .223 bullet weight

Okay, I'm not a newbie, but definitely not a grizzly veteran. I have purchased various match grade factory ammo in 69gr and 75gr for my Axis. I went to the farm yesterday to test. I started using Remington 55gr just to get the scope dialed in. With the cheaper Remington 55gr. I was able to keep 5 shots in about a 1" square. Soooo, I figured, "boy, when I start shooting the 69gr match grade" I'll be driving tacks..........NOT! I couldn't keep the match grade within 2". Everything I had read said 1:9 twist would stabilize a 69gr bullet very well. I used three different manufacturers, factory loads. So, someone please enlighten me!! Please!! By the way, I was shooting at 100yds.

I probably won't have time to reload for the next few years, so I'll have to stick to factory loads.

Thanks in advance,
Joe

Group size is not a good indicator of whether a bullet is stabilized or not. My guess is that your Axis just does not "like" the three factory loads you have tried. Shoot the 69gr factory stuff at 300-400 yards....if you don't get a key-hole then the bullet is probably stable.

Have you gone back to the ammo that shot 1" square? Rather than throw the towel in on the match ammo, I would try and duplicate the best groups with the ammo that shot well. If that ammo now shoots >2"s then we know that it is a different problem. Let

I often test theories more than once. I find that I am working in the right direction rather than taking shots in the dark.

If your limited to factory loads, then there isn't much you can do. If it doesn't shoot em good, then that's that. Find what it likes and except it. You might measure overall length to the bullet ojive on the different factory loads, may be a seating depth preference with your rifle. Won't help with factory loads, but might tell you at least part of what's affecting accuracy.

wbm, I'll give the longer shot a try just to see what happens. Although, I can't shoot much more than 200yds-220yds(Kentucky hills :)) .........Thanks

stangfish, yes, I shot the Remington 55gr first to sight in the scope, then went to the "Match". Halfway through the shooting the 69gr and 75gr, I shot a 5-shot group of 55gr(consistent 1" group), then back to the "Match" stuff. I finished with the 55gr Remington and again it was around a 1" group. I'm having a great time shooting and love experimenting with the different ammo's, but was expecting something totally different than what I got.

I ran out of time shooting yesterday. I still have some 62gr., 53gr., and 77gr., and a ton of different 55grs. I'll give them a try this weekend. But any help would be greatly appreciated.

As a side note.....How expensive would it be to get into reloading just .223 and .308? What I mean by that, would it be closer to $150.00 or $300.00? To do it cost efficiently(lowest cost). I don't have a lot of extra money this time of year.......Tis the season :)

Merry Christmas!

Longer twists = lighter bullets.

A faster twist is designed to stabilize a bullet that has more weight and therefore is more reluctant to take a spin.

On an AR, since you have a gas port, looser chamber and overall lower barrel speeds, you can get away with a 62gr in a 20" 1:9 barrel. Though mine still likes 55gr.

On a longer barrel, with no port and bolt action, expect higher velocities and thus the need for a higher twist rate as bullet weights go up.

The reason you see a heavier weight 223 as "match" is because it will be less susceptible to wind, not because it is inherently "more accurate" ammo.

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A faster twist is designed to stabilize a bullet that has more weight and therefore is more reluctant to take a spin.

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Although it seems to be connected this is not entirely true. Length of bullet is what determines the twist rate. I like the use of faster twist terminology but I think slower twist is a better term than longer twist.

The OP's barrel should stabilize the 69 grain match bullets just fine. However the rifle just might not like the recipe that was put into the cartridges.

The more I read, the more I'm thinking about reloading. Then I can fine tune everything. Is there a recommended starter kit that includes everything I would need for $100-$150?

Thanks,
Joe

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Originally Posted by jlnft

The more I read, the more I'm thinking about reloading. Then I can fine tune everything. Is there a recommended starter kit that includes everything I would need for $100-$150?

Thanks,
Joe

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Lee makes a kit that runs a bit over a hundred bucks; you'd also need a set of dies, components, and a trimmer/case length gauge. A caliper is important too, IMO.

You WILL spend money and upgrade your gear as time goes along and you see what you do and don't like.

When I first started reloading, I wanted the longest, sexiest, boat tail bullets I could find. But my shooting is limited to 300yds and in recent years I have come to realize that boat tails are waisted at those ranges, and it seems that flat base bullets are generally more accurate at short ranges than boat tails. Like stangfish said, it is length, not weight, that affects stability as related to barrel twist, and almost all boat tail bullets are longer than than flat base of the same weight. So for some years now I have looked for flat base bullets to fill my needs. I can think of two exceptions to this, one is the 80grn TTSX that I shoot in my 250-3000, and the 225grn SGK I shoot in my 358Win. Both shoot way less than MOA out to 300yds. Just shows me "nothing is written in stone" ;-)

Good Luck-Good Shooting.......Jim

I haven't got to shoot any of my reloads yet for my .223 Axis, but factory Winchester match ammo loaded with 69 gr Sierra Matchkings shot an 11/16" group during the first 20 shots with the rifle. I think what makes some .223 Axis' ammo picky is that most all of them are VERY long throated. I can load a 69 gr Matchking out to 2.408" to touch the lands. 2.26" is the SAAMI listed max OAL, so all factory ammo will be under 2.26". This will make a lot of factory loads potentially inaccurate since best accuracy is often found less than 0.030" off the lands (but not always). I'm really surprised my Axis shot the factory ammo as well as it did with such a long throat. But as well as it shot the factory load, I bet I can beat it with handloads. That's why reloading is so great. You can try all possible combinations of powder, primer, bullet, brass, OAL and so on to find "the load" for your rifle.

My 1:9 AXIS loves the Sierra 69gr HPBT MK with CFE223 and H4895 set .030 of the lands(I had one flier!).
It will not shot any lighter bullet to speak of, so I use them for "dirty-up" rounds.

http://www.nettally.com/kwd/grp4.JPG

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

My 1:9 AXIS loves the Sierra 69gr HPBT MK with CFE223 and H4895 set .030 of the lands(I had one flier!).
It will not shot any lighter bullet to speak of, so I use them for "dirty-up" rounds.

http://www.nettally.com/kwd/grp4.JPG

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Show off....

Can't hold a candle to you Frank! =;)

Yeah ya can.
When the range goes cold, run down to the target with a handful or rounds, stab them thru the target in a tight group & run back to the firing line....

Now you know my secret.

Happy New Year Gents. Keep it safe.

Here's my first two three-shot groups after fouling the barrel from a little load testing today. It's pretty breezy here today but it still shot some good groups for a mediocre shooter(me) shooting off a picnic table and bags. I only loaded ten rounds so I'll have to load up some more to see if I can do any better. This load was my first guess at what the rifle might like, but I believe the rifle is easily more accurate than me. I doubt if I'll mess with this load much.

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...26654995_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...92214369_n.jpg

So to stay on the OP's topic, a Savage Axis .223 should shoot the 69 gr MK well, as others have already stated.

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Originally Posted by steveNChunter

Here's my first two three-shot groups after fouling the barrel from a little load testing today. It's pretty breezy here today but it still shot some good groups for a mediocre shooter(me) shooting off a picnic table and bags. I only loaded ten rounds so I'll have to load up some more to see if I can do any better. This load was my first guess at what the rifle might like, but I believe the rifle is easily more accurate than me. I doubt if I'll mess with this load much.

https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...26654995_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...92214369_n.jpg

So to stay on the OP's topic, a Savage Axis .223 should shoot the 69 gr MK well, as others have already stated.

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Am I wrong or did you start at near max powder load ?:confused:

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Originally Posted by cranebird

Am I wrong or did you start at near max powder load ?:confused:

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He did (Hodgdon max is 25.3gr Varget, IIRC) but his OAL is substantially longer than the 2.26" that load data is predicated on.

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

He did (Hodgdon max is 25.3gr Varget, IIRC) but his OAL is substantially longer than the 2.26" that load data is predicated on.

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I was going to say... I know very little about reloading, but that 223 looks longer to the naked eye than any other 223 I have shot.

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

He did (Hodgdon max is 25.3gr Varget, IIRC) but his OAL is substantially longer than the 2.26" that load data is predicated on.

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Thanks for the response. I seen the overall length noted. I just didn't know where he was going when loading more up to see if he could do better ? It's been years since I've reloaded and I am looking to restart, thus my reason for noticing it. I am trying to get a better idea where to start since I will be using the 69 grain MK bullet.

The max load in my Lyman manual is 26.0 grains at an OAL of 2.26". I'm not necessarily going to up the powder charge any more, I may play with seating depth and try going a couple tenths lower or higher with the powder just to see what happens. Starting half a grain off max when the OAL is that much longer isn't as risky as it sounds in my opinion. But don't try it just because I did it, do what feels comfortable and safe for you.

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Originally Posted by steveNChunter

The max load in my Lyman manual is 26.0 grains at an OAL of 2.26". I'm not necessarily going to up the powder charge any more, I may play with seating depth and try going a couple tenths lower or higher with the powder just to see what happens. Starting half a grain off max when the OAL is that much longer isn't as risky as it sounds in my opinion. But don't try it just because I did it, do what feels comfortable and safe for you.

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Don't mind me,I was thinking out loud in case someone like myself who is starting up doesn't make the mistake of working a load up from there. Hodgdon also states 26.0 grs max for Varget powder with the 69 grain SMK bullet . Sorry to stray off track......

A word about the OP question on getting started reloading. The "starter" kit and a set of dies from most any company will get you started reloading. The most important part of the whole setup is a RELOADING MANUAL. If the kit you buy does not come with one, GET ONE! Even if it is one of the Loadbook USA manuals for one caliber. (I think they start around $10.) Many are tempted to just start working up loads they find on the internet, which could be dangerous without the context of max and minimum loads and the characteristics of the powder used.

As far as the tools, as was said before, you can start with the basic tools and acquire specialize and more advanced tools when finances allow, just like any other workshop.

BW

I broke down and bought a Hornady Classic LNL kit. It has a very nice manual with it. Reloading is definitely the way to go for a accuracy. Found a nice load with 69gr Sierra MK that keeps my groups in the 1/2" range

:thumbup::D:D:D;)

That 69 gr MK is a great bullet that tends to give super accuracy with several different powders. Have an experienced reloader help you determine the length of your chamber and try seating those bullets about 0.010" off the lands. Don't just guess at it because if the bullet is seated too long for the chamber it can cause pressures to rise. 0.010" off was the sweet spot for my rifle with that bullet but of course, YMMV