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I am now with the second Savage rifle that doesn't like neck sized,fire formed brass! I have a few other,Savages that is,that do well with neck sizing. New,never fired brass shoots great,full length sized is close,but forget the neck sizing! I have tried a couple of different neck sized dies but it is the same results upon shooting????
I have 2 30-06's,one likes it the other don't! I had a 223,it was the same way. I gave up on it.
Any ideas on this problem!
I pretty much gave up on it too. Just always seemed to be some issues with clambering. My average size groups remained the same with full length sizing.
I assume that you are neck sizing brass that was originally fired in the same rifle?
I have yet to find a gun that shot better with neck sizing brass, over fl sizing.Quote:
Originally Posted by willyp
I full size every third firing. In between that I neck size. I can't say it's created dead nutz accurate ammo for me but it did give me greater consistency.
I've always relied on fine tuning the charge & seating depth for accuracy. And trigger time. Lots of trigger time.
As far as a particular rifle not liking neck sized brass, I find a little tweaking of the charge is sometimes in order.
Have you checked the case mouth diameter?
As in - is it the same as your full sized cases? My '06 likes a consistent .306" inside diameter - NS & FS brass. Any tighter or looser in the neck tension & I lose the consistency of my beloved '06.
I only full length every few firings also.
Have you tried to re setup your dies?
Bushing die or collet die?
Necks could be a bit big like said above, or I have seen some where the necks were really hard and all that pressure resizing the necks jacked the case up further down in the shoulder and body of the case.
Neck sized cases has always given me better results. I don't full length size until my cases tell me too. I don't even remember the last time a fl sized an 06. I bet I have 10 plus firings on my cases and they still chamber easily and provide half inch or better accuracy. My 22-250 requires fl sizing about every third or fourth firing but with no discernible difference in accuracy.
Are you using all the same head stamped cases? Have you checked them for volume to determine consistency?
Over the years my methods have changed a bit. Ten years ago I was neck sizing everything until it was too hard to chamber then bumping the shoulder back just a bit and repeating the process. I found out it really wasn't helping my accuracy.
Most of my cases get partial sizing. In other words, a FL die, just not necessarily screwed in all the way. I usually like a .003" shoulder bump on most "normal" rifles, though a few "accuracy is the only goal" rifles only get a .002" bump.
There is one rifle however, that always gets complete full-length sizing. The chamber is slightly crooked. However, as long as the brass is FL-sized every time, it loads easily and is one of my better shooting rifles.
I full length size everything and anneal when the seating force requirements changes.
Question was put to some well know bench rest shooters a while back. Most, including David Tubb, full length resize.
Full length every time?Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
My experience has been that some rifles respond well to NS, others, not so well. (I guess it must be a chamber issue or a bolt face squareness problem, but I'm not sure, since it doesn't always work) If I'm trying to wring the last little bit of accuracy out of a rifle, the LAST two things I do are NS and action screw torqueing. They rarely help, but every once in a while doing one or both of those two things will make a positive difference.
Well sorta. Full length resize is a relative term. They don't have the budgetary constraints a lot of us do. So "full length resize" to them does not mean running it through an economy class RCBS die set.Quote:
Full length every time?
I have found that in most of my barrels NS is the way to go. In my 22-250 barrel it shrunk my groups in half by going to NS over the FL. I have also found that many factory Savage barrels have chambers that are off center and perhaps do not lend themselves to NS since the brass won't be at the same "clock" position the next time it is chambered in the barrel. Just a theory but.....
So far all the Savage barrel I have in my stock prefer the neck sizing and I practice it for all of my barrels but one, my 6-WSM. On my 6-WSM I used a pc of FL sized brass to set the headspace and I set it to the tightest I could get and still chamber comfortably. I use a 270WSM FL Bushing die with bushings for the 6mm,and completely FL size the case. Since the chamber is set to allow minimal case expansion anyway, I am not noticing the brass getting overworked like I have in other rifles. However, another complicating factor into that equation is that on the advice of the smith who chambered the barrel is that due to the extreme overbore of this chambering I am annealing these brass every 2 firings and in my other calibers I don't anneal until the brass forces me to.
Boots, speaking of chamber orientation of the cartridges, a trick that I learned from shooting a lot of single shot rifles is to mark a "dot" on the cartridge head stamp, and then keep that dot at, say, 12 o'clock, every time I shoot it. Even with my magazine fed rifles, stacking the cartridges into the mag with the "dot" at 12 o'clock seems to help in some rifles. As you can tell, I'll try (and have tried!) just about everything in the book to shave off a few thousandths!
interesting thread here.....6 of some 1/2 dozen of the other.
I used to ns and crip yrs ago but i found no "factual" decrease in group size,s.
I fl everything,
I also have to go with the neck sizing theory, as being the way to go, in my rifle and handguns (bottleneck ctgs) I own. Now, having read everything I could find over the years of the different reloading practices, the theories of neck turning versus accuracy 'improvement' is one that still has me up in the air.
OK, I do not own BR quality rifles where the neck turning 'might' show improvement. However, I do have a half dozen "varmint" rifles that I have developed loads for. I have the tools to neck turn and inside neck ream. As many, many magazine articles have shown, I have not seen any improvement. However, when a 'factory' rifle (with a tuned trigger) and selected loads can shoot .2s and .3s at 100 yds, does it matter??
Lastly. David Tubb knows his 'stuff'. In spite of this fact (!!!!) I have never been able to get ONE person to discuss the aspect of HBN coating either their bullets or their bore. I do my own coatings. HBN, WS2, Moly, Moly with wax, etc.....
I do mostly HBN now, and out of the box, my rifles (most all mfg) will shoot groups that most folks can't believe....I refuse to shoot uncoated bullets. It's a simple process. Tubb uses it. Case closed. Or, as the Pres would say, "PERIOD"... ha ha
Why do people deny physics???? I don't understand, and really don't care. My bores stay virgin and clean so easy it's hard to believe. For many years I scrubbed bores trying to get the 'copper' out, using every chemical known to man. Now, it's NOT an issue... Yeah, you 'might' lose 50 fps. Just increase the powder a bit. You DO have a chronograph, right????
ron
Will a fired round chamber ok in the rifleQuote:
Originally Posted by willyp
Just curious
Jack
I think you sentences can be a bit misunderstood. David Tubb is not a Benchrest shooter. Yes majority of competitive Benchrest shooters full length size their brass every firing, out of the list Tony Boyer, Jack Neary, Mike Rattigan for a short list of 100-300 yard shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by wbm
Please provide more info on how you accomplish and how you measure " shoulder bumping". Perhaps a step by step procedure or did you use someting that is in print?Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrelsniper
Thanks in advance
Measuring the amount of bump isn't difficult. A stick of FLS 280 brass for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Stroker
http://i41.tinypic.com/296hm6u.jpg
I use two bushing, one on the casehead bored .100" deep and one on the shoulder, in this instance bored to .375". The bushing on the casehead includes any casehead runout in the measurement the same as it sat on the floor of the shellholder when sizing and or seating. It also insures consistent case alignment between the bushings. I can use that measurement as is or add .100" for the actual measurement of 2.099". Fired brass from that chamber averages 2.101"-2,1015".
Bill
True he is into HighPower but teaches, sells and promotes benchrest.Quote:
I think you sentences can be a bit misunderstood. David Tubb is not a Benchrest shooter.
True. He is into HighPower but he instructs benchrest and full length resizes.Quote:
I think you sentences can be a bit misunderstood. David Tubb is not a Benchrest shooter.
I'm sure you can find stuff on the net that gives you a lot better step by step instruction than I can here. But, I use a Stoney Point gauge (now sold under the Hornady brand name) with appropriate insert and calipers to measure a case from the head to the shoulder. Basically, it's a try and measure process. Screw in the FL die a bit, measure resulting case. Repeat until you have moved the shoulder back .002-.003" from where it started. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by 500 Stroker
I neck size until chambering tells me it is time to push back the shoulder a bit. I like a bit of resistance on bolt lock-up. I can't say it makes any discernable difference to accuracy but it does to case life. This especially true for my 35 Remington cases which will split at the neck after only a few firings if I FL size them. FL sizing makes my 308 cases in my 99f harder to extract. This is related to a tight chamber but generous headspace. Cases stretch backward and repeated firing and FL sizing leads to thinning at the head and the telltale "ring" warning of potential head seperation. I barely kiss the shoulder on these cases and I have increased the case life and my peace of mind. It makes sense that looser fitting FL sized cases would somewhat compensate for bore and chamber alignment issues. A tight fitting case may result in the bullet entering the lead on a slight angle or striking it off centre. Neither would be good for acurracy. I wonder if checking case concentricy before and after firing might not help diagnose this condition?
I am familiar with moly coating but what is HBN? sorry been out of shoot for a while.
Bench rest guys don't NS brass because the added force used to close the bolt moves the gun in the rest. They are after.001's not .10's
Boron Nitride.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Steve
I think. I've heard the term but never really researched it. As long as the bullet comes out of the hole in the end of the barrel & hits what I'm aiming at, good 'nuff for me....
PS = You aroused my curiosity...
Have a read:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...bn-to-bullets/
HBN = Hexagonal Boron Nitride. It's one of several coatings that can be used on bullet to improve their performance.
I find the quality of neck (ID consistency and freedom from taper) to be better from my lee collet dies than any FL die I have ever owned. If the shoulder on my cases needs to be bumped, I have a body die for that, then neck size the neck.
This is my SOP with everything that I have been able to find collet dies for. For more than a year now, making of custom dies has basically been suspended, so all I have for my 6.5x284 is a FL die and I just got the barrel, so I don't know how the chamber vs the die compare. I do not have a body die for my 243 Ackley, nor a FL die for that matter, these would be custom. Fortunately, it is going to take me a while to work through fireforming all of the 243 brass I bought, so hopefuly I can get the die I need by the time all my brass is fireformed.
I have not had any issues with my method, but then I also do not just buy 20 or 50 shells which then get reloaded in weekly intervals. I plan on annealing by the 4th firing. The ackly cases should require very little trimming.