Why aren't short/super short magnum cartriges more popular?

Hi all! I have been thinking of putting a custom tube on one of my savages and contemplating on the chambering for some time now. It is gonna be either a .224 or .243 bore and should be able to launch some heavier for the caliber projectiles which probably warrants the 1:8 twist rate. I keep on stumbling though which particular case I should have it rimmed for. Looks like I 'm split between either a 22-250/243 AI or one of the newer fatter cases. I keep on checking the latter ones at the reloading store that I visit and I like them visually but, from what I see at least, there aren't a lot of rifles built for those. Am I simply not seeing them or there are some downsides to the newer crop short/super short magnum rounds? I read somewhere before that brass is much thicker and harder to work with for one, if that's true. Anything else I should be aware of that may steer me away from them toward the older cases that I mentioned? Thanks.

They tend to be a bit finicky with cycling in some guns. Other than that, nothing wrong with them. It's hard to steer people away from traditional, time proven, trusted cartridge designs that they have fallen in love with. Marketing, is another reason. 1 short mag for every 100 traditional cartridge guns sold. If you like the new short mags, I would say go for it, and you too can be in the exclusive group.

Stay away from WSSM's......they are overbore, finicky, inefficient and extremely hard on barrels. They also operate at higher pressures.
The 22-250 AI is a better way to go.

I have a 28" shilen in 243 wssm. It is cool, fast, and I like it. But, I have a couple of regular 243's that do the same thing, just not as fast. I had my barrel nitrided when it was new after the break in. The nitriding gave me around a 150-200fps increase in almost all loads. Example, I can get a 70gr BT maxed out at 3950-4000fps, depending on powder. I only have about 600 rds through it and it is fine so far. The major downfall would be finding brass, not sure how often Winchester will make it.

Ever been kicked by a mule? That is why alot of people stay away from magnums but witha good muzzle brake,they are quite shootable all day.

I have a 270wsm Tikka, absolutely shoots lights out! I currently in the process of gathering parts for my next rifle a savage 7wsm. Hard hitting, flat shooters.

I love my wsm. Hard hitting, accurate and the recoil really isn't that bad. I would get one over any of the belted mags

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Originally Posted by emmagator

I have a 270wsm Tikka, absolutely shoots lights out! I currently in the process of gathering parts for my next rifle a savage 7wsm. Hard hitting, flat shooters.

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If your shooting lights out, aim lower, sorry I had to.

243 wssm runs at such a high pressure the Browning I had needed a hammer to get the bolt open. Sent it back and they said it was fine. It was accurate but more trouble than it was worth. Sold it and built a 6mm AI on a 110 that works much better. I'd steer clear of the wssm's,I'm not sure how that stubby little case would feed in a Savage action. Just my 2 cents.

I love the wssm and wsm cartridges. I have a completely factory winchester stealth II in 243 WSSM that will shoot 3/8" groups all day long and hammer little fuzzy animals with 58gr vmaxs. 7mm WSM is one of my favorite rounds too.

The 250 Savage AI is a great round, and has the greatest percentage of benefit of almost all of the AI's. I keep getting drawn to the 7mm SAUM, but "I have absolutely no need for it" :-(

They're a niche. I'm speaking to the WSM style. They do not OUT perform the parents, but they allow you to very closely approach or reach them in a short action. They are also more efficient. They do it with less powder. If you handload, that's a good thing, otherwise ammo is tough to find/expensive. Granted, I have not priced regular 7mm Rem lately.

I see it as this. The established generation of shooters like the regular mags because they're familiar. I also would not go to the trouble of replacing a Rem Mag with a WSM. But, if I were to build a 7, it would be a 7 WSM.

Expensive factory ammo
Crappy brass
Not much gain over the regular cartridge counter part
Excessive barrel wear
and the list goes on and on.

hmm, I didn't know Norma brass was crappy. And excessive barrel wear? are we speculating now or have you taken 2 exactly built rifles and documented how many rounds it takes to wear out a 7mm Wsm to a 7mm rem mag or a 300 wsm to a 300 Win mag?

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Originally Posted by sinman

hmm, I didn't know Norma brass was crappy. And excessive barrel wear? are we speculating now or have you taken 2 exactly built rifles and documented how many rounds it takes to wear out a 7mm Wsm to a 7mm rem mag or a 300 wsm to a 300 Win mag?

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I should have clarified I am refering to the WSSM calibers. With the 7wsm to 7mm mag or 300wsm to 300 win mag there is not as big a difference however the gain is still negligable.

I'm seriously thinking of a 7 SAUM, too. The reason: I used to have a Ruger 77V in .280. I decided the barrel was too heavy for me to pull up in my tree stand. I picked up a Savage short action and decided I wanted all short actions. The 7 SAUM will do what the .280 will do, but in a short action. That's the advantage of the short mags. Now, I'm considering a 7 WSSM. It will work great in the PA woods for deer; I just don't know if it will have enough velocity for a sheep hunt I plan to go on when a rich relative gives me mega bucks!
Ben

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Originally Posted by Freepistol

I'm seriously thinking of a 7 SAUM, too. The reason: I used to have a Ruger 77V in .280. I decided the barrel was too heavy for me to pull up in my tree stand. I picked up a Savage short action and decided I wanted all short actions. The 7 SAUM will do what the .280 will do, but in a short action. That's the advantage of the short mags. Now, I'm considering a 7 WSSM. It will work great in the PA woods for deer; I just don't know if it will have enough velocity for a sheep hunt I plan to go on when a rich relative gives me mega bucks!
Ben

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I'll assume you meant 7 WSM, not WSSM. I think it will do what you need. SA won't affect speed. With a decent barrel, you can push the 180's to 2900-3000. IF you have to drop back, you can get the 162/168's up to 3100-3200 FPS. Pick your bullet of choice and run it through your ballistic program. I think you'll be surprised how much energy it carries with their INSANE BCs.

Freepistol, the idea of a 6.5 or 7mm WSSM has intrigued me also. Maybe one day.

A 338 WSSM looks like larger version of the 6mmBR......always been a temptation for me.

I had a 25 WSSM and to me the brass was way too hard and very think necks.
Never could get it to shoot like I wanted.

That said the WSSM cartridges will run in an AR15 and that gives those guns some decent power.
Never owned a WSM rifle.

I have owned a few belted magnums and a 375 Ruger which is a great cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Tarheelpwr

I'll assume you meant 7 WSM, not WSSM. I think it will do what you need. SA won't affect speed. With a decent barrel, you can push the 180's to 2900-3000. IF you have to drop back, you can get the 162/168's up to 3100-3200 FPS. Pick your bullet of choice and run it through your ballistic program. I think you'll be surprised how much energy it carries with their INSANE BCs.

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Actually, I meant the 7 WSSM. I like weird stuff.

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Originally Posted by Freepistol

Actually, I meant the 7 WSSM. I like weird stuff.

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10-4. Can't even comment then. I know nothing about that chamfering.

After more research I came to the conclusion that the 7 WSSM won't do what I want. It looks like capacity is about the same as the 7mm-08 and I want more. I think a case about a tenth of an inch shorter than the 7SAUM would do what I want, but it's not worth the trouble and expense to do it. I'll just have to get the SAUM and be happy.

I love my 300 WSM too but not any more than my 300 win mags. I mainly bought the 300 WSM for the rifle configuration and not so much the cartridge. But after shooting it, I'm liking it more and more. I don't handload yet, been saying for years I'm gonna get in to it but still haven't. All I've shot in it so far is Underwood Ammo and it is excellent. Either his loads are pretty hot or I have a really fast barrel. I've seen no signs of excessive pressure except the slightest ejector mark on the brass. 180 grain SST rated at 3050 fps. From my 26" barrel I'm getting 3150 fps! I expected up to maybe 50 more fps but not 100.

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Originally Posted by efm77

I love my 300 WSM too but not any more than my 300 win mags. I mainly bought the 300 WSM for the rifle configuration and not so much the cartridge. But after shooting it, I'm liking it more and more. I don't handload yet, been saying for years I'm gonna get in to it but still haven't. All I've shot in it so far is Underwood Ammo and it is excellent. Either his loads are pretty hot or I have a really fast barrel. I've seen no signs of excessive pressure except the slightest ejector mark on the brass. 180 grain SST rated at 3050 fps. From my 26" barrel I'm getting 3150 fps! I expected up to maybe 50 more fps but not 100.

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I hope your brass its not cheap. if you shoot alot reloaing is really worth the cost of the equipment

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Originally Posted by mnhntr

I should have clarified I am refering to the WSSM calibers. With the 7wsm to 7mm mag or 300wsm to 300 win mag there is not as big a difference however the gain is still negligable.

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I run the WSM's out of a long action. It lets me hang some heavy VLD's without running into mag length problems. That's a big advantage over the 7RM and 300win.

Freepistol, just curious, why is the 7RSAUM "not short enough"? Even with long bullets it should work well in a Savage short action? Thanks...Jim

"I hope your brass its not cheap. if you shoot alot reloaing is really worth the cost of the equipment "

I think you meant to say you hope I'm keeping my brass? If so, then yes I am. So far I don't shoot the expensive rounds enough to justify the cost of the equipment yet. That may change though. Also, I have a friend who has reloading equipment that says I can use it, so all I would have to guy are the proper dies and components. I'm saving all my brass to hopefully do that in the near future.

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Originally Posted by FW Conch

Freepistol, just curious, why is the 7RSAUM "not short enough"? Even with long bullets it should work well in a Savage short action? Thanks...Jim

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Jim,
It's not the magazine length. I want to make a light rifle with a 20 or maybe a 21" barrel. The guys on Specialty Pistol have been getting good velocity out of 18-20" barrels using the 7SAUM, however, I think a shorter cartridge would do the same with less powder, muzzle blast, and recoil. I've been comparing velocity and powder weights of various rounds and there are 7mm loadings that'll get 2700fps with 5-11 grains less powder than the SAUM. With a capacity about 7 grains less, I would be happy. After many hours of flipping pages back and forth, I've come to the conclusion that the 7SAUM is the way to go and just have to decide on the contour and length. I'd like to have a short, stiff barrel, but don't want a big velocity concession. I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a Shilen 24" heavy sporter and I think cutting a couple inches off that would make a great mountain weight barrel in the 7SAUM.

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Originally Posted by Freepistol

Jim,
It's not the magazine length. I want to make a light rifle with a 20 or maybe a 21" barrel. The guys on Specialty Pistol have been getting good velocity out of 18-20" barrels using the 7SAUM, however, I think a shorter cartridge would do the same with less powder, muzzle blast, and recoil. I've been comparing velocity and powder weights of various rounds and there are 7mm loadings that'll get 2700fps with 5-11 grains less powder than the SAUM. With a capacity about 7 grains less, I would be happy. After many hours of flipping pages back and forth, I've come to the conclusion that the 7SAUM is the way to go and just have to decide on the contour and length. I'd like to have a short, stiff barrel, but don't want a big velocity concession. I have a 6.5 Creedmoor with a Shilen 24" heavy sporter and I think cutting a couple inches off that would make a great mountain weight barrel in the 7SAUM.

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What kind of velocity were they getting with 20" bbls and what wt bullets?

From the thread:

I have the 7 SAUM and 7 WSM in the HS precision, 15" barrel.
both push the 140 gr Ballistic tip in the upper 2800 FPS range
my XP in a 284 Win will push same bullet just under 2800 fps ( 2770 avg)
I like the 140 gr BT for deer sized game , never had a deer walk away after being hit by one of them.

And:

I get 2975fps with 162gr AMax bullets. It is an 18" brux barrel on a savage target action. Whacked an antelope at 926 yards with it.