Primers, How flat is too flat?

So I just started reloading, and went out this morning to test out some loads and try to find my max load. I guess I will list out the components I am using and the processes I used to load them.

Winchester once fired brass
CCI 250 Primer, only primers I could find and my friend checked his Speer book and they called for a magnum primer for 2520
Accurate 2520 powder
Sierra 165 Grain Game King Soft Point Boat Tail

Full length resized and deprimed using Hornady spray lube
Trimmed to 2.006", Chamferred and deburred
Tumbled in crushed walnut and nu polish and a touch of mineral spirits
Charged to exact by hand with a scale and a trickler
Bullets seated to .020" off the lands, No crimp

So I went and shot some this morning and got flattening primers way before I expected. I am using the Lee 2nd edition book, and they show a minimum load of 42.9 grains and a max of 47.7, so I started at 43 and increased in .5 grain increments. 43 grains shows no primer deformation, 43.5 I could tell the primer changed a bit but just barely, and 44 grains I got a flattened out primer...

43 Grains
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6a1647b3.jpg

43.5 Grains, Inconsistent flattening
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/...psc20e0451.jpg
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/...ps495ec962.jpg

44 Grains, flat...
http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/...pse8dd5580.jpg

I don't have any ejector indenting or stiff bolt lift, the only other thing I can see is a mark where the ejector appears to scrape on the head maybe when lifting the bolt? Picture #3 kinda shows it. Is this something I need to watch for as well?

So at what point do you start backing off? I felt like the 43.5 grain is probably the max. It just seems weird that I am getting pressure signs a half grain above minimum. I will probably load up 10 rounds each of some lower charges to try for accuracy but then I will be under the book minimum... I have since found some CCI 200 primers, should I try them and see how it goes? Just looking for ideas, again I am totally new to this so I just want to make sure I am being safe and gonna get the best BANG for my efforts. Thanks in advance for your guys' consideration.

Neck tension can do that.

Dean

I should have mentioned. I am using lee dies and getting about .002" neck tension.

Also is it they original barrel or has it been swapped.

Dean

Again, sorry for leaving stuff out.

Stephens 200 in .308 Win
Original barrel
Pretty much a new gun. Never been messed with.

Dean - Couldn't too much head space also cause this?

Another tidbit of info, factory ammo didn't seem to flatten them out. And I shot one round through my friends savage 11 and it showed up about the same if not a little worse. His left an ejector mark. He just looked in his Speer manual and they show a starting load of 41 grains and a max of 45... Maybe lee's book is a bit hot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Bruce

Dean - Couldn't too much head space also cause this?

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Ironically I have seen this with to much and to little headspace, go figure,

Dean

Accurate lists AA2520 with 165 SIE SBT Min 42.9 and Max 47.7 exactly the same as Lee.

Sierra manual #V-- 6th printing lists Min. 36.3 to a max of 42.7 with that bullet and AA2520.

Doesn't look "too flat" to me at all. Also I don't see any marks on the head of the brass from hard extraction.

If there is plenty of space left in the cartridge, you should probably try a slower powder. Hodgdon Varget is working good for me. AA 2520 lists as #96 on the powder burn rate table and Varget is #99 so they "should" not be that far apart. But I am shooting a heavier bullet and "needed" a slower powder....

The Varget load is listed as 42-46C gr at 2582 - 2773fps with a 65gr bullet
The fastest load listed is with CFE 223 at 45.4 to 48.3gr and 2649 - 2839 fps

This is on the Hodgdon reloading website which of course does not list other powders...

I would love to load up some varget. But there is someone that hits our local Walmart everytime they get a shipment and buys all of it. I was in there a couple weeks ago and they actually had some powder. The clerk and I were shooting the breeze and he mentions that they got in 12 lbs of varget that same day. He says its like the guy knows their shipments. They don't even know when it will come in, but this guy shows up 15 minutes after a shipment comes in and buys all the varget, one other powder, and he brings friends and wipes out the 9mm and 223 ammo... I couldn't believe they had 12 lbs at 2 o clock and when I got there after work they were out. I guess he was there at 2:15 and wiped it all out... So frustrating.

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Originally Posted by bythebook

Sierra manual #V-- 6th printing lists Min. 36.3 to a max of 42.7 with that bullet and AA2520.

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So it sounds like the lee book is on the high end of the spectrum. I know Sierra can be a bit conservative, but at least I won't be under a book minimum.

So I guess I will load some up in the 41-43.5 grain range and see how they group.

I hope to get a chronograph some day to see how fast I am actually shooting but for now I will have to shoot my drops and calculate it off of that.

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Originally Posted by wbm

Doesn't look "too flat" to me at all. Also I don't see any marks on the head of the brass from hard extraction.

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Actually that is what I was thinking, my regular loads the primers are a lot flatter than that, without giving it a second thought, but I was trying to be good "I really tried" it could also be that batch of powder so I would try something else.

Dean

I would say that 44gr is where I would have some concern.

Would go with standard LR primers. IMR 4064, Varget, Reloader seem to be some of the best powders for the .308

I have been told that some primers have harder cups than others. I know from personal experience that at least one lot of primers was too hard for my S&W Model 64, so I accept the information as likely to be valid.

A primer brand softer cups will show signs of flattening earlier than other other brands with harder cups.

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Originally Posted by wbm

First of all forget the magnum primer in a 308, don't care what Speer says. Stop shooting that foreign made new fangled "girly powder" that probably has oatmeal in it and start shooting some REAL 308 powder like IMR4064, H4895, Varget etc. Your rifle will thank you.

Not serious except for the non magnum primers and the powder recommendations parts.

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Ok. I am not gonna give up on what I have already started but I got some info on another forum. The earlier Accurate data indicated 45 grains as a max load, and take away a grain or so for the magnum primer and that sounds about right.

But on your recommendation I put together some loads with Accurate 4064 that I have. With CCI 200 primers. I also have some IMR 4895 that I may try if I dont get results. I would love to try Varget. Just need to find some...

Got some Accurate 4064 last month. Have never used it before but the from the load data it looks to be just a wee bit faster than the IMR but that could just be from lot variations. Reloader 15 is also one you might give a go. Anyway hope you get it shooting like you want.

to my eyes....the primer doesnt show the firing pin indentation to be blown out at all..or at least not enuff to red flag the load charge.
chrono,s gonna tell the story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wbm

Got some Accurate 4064 last month. Have never used it before but the from the load data it looks to be just a wee bit faster than the IMR but that could just be from lot variations. Reloader 15 is also one you might give a go. Anyway hope you get it shooting like you want.

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http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

From looking at this, AA2520 comes in slower than 4064 powders. But Reloader 15 is a few steps slower, again, I would love to find some... I have 3 pounds of H1000 that I bought for my friends but 3 months later none of them have bought dies or brass or bullets so I am gonna try to trade some locally for some Varget or Reloader 15.

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Originally Posted by therichardpowell

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

From looking at this, AA2520 comes in slower than 4064 powders. But Reloader 15 is a few steps slower, again, I would love to find some... I have 3 pounds of H1000 that I bought for my friends but 3 months later none of them have bought dies or brass or bullets so I am gonna try to trade some locally for some Varget or Reloader 15.

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sounds like a good trade to me.....Varget and RL-15 have been my go to powders for yrs. Ive been able to find Varget here locally but no RL-15. Lucky for me I ordered a 5lb-er right before the crisis. I still have about 3 lbs left.

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Originally Posted by eddiesindian

sounds like a good trade to me.....Varget and RL-15 have been my go to powders for yrs. Ive been able to find Varget here locally but no RL-15. Lucky for me I ordered a 5lb-er right before the crisis. I still have about 3 lbs left.

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I think so too. H1000 seems to be just as hard to find as Varget. I just got lucky one day. But I don't own a magnum and none of my friends wanna get of their arse to get their act together so if I can trade it I will. They can go hunt up their own powder. I can't wait to get a load figured out so I can start playing. I am not terribly patient and this process is proving difficult for me. I just wanna go take a poke at the 1000 yard target on the hill. But it'll have to wait til I find a good load and get some drop data formulated.

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Originally Posted by therichardpowell

I think so too. H1000 seems to be just as hard to find as Varget. I just got lucky one day. But I don't own a magnum and none of my friends wanna get of their arse to get their act together so if I can trade it I will. They can go hunt up their own powder. I can't wait to get a load figured out so I can start playing. I am not terribly patient and this process is proving difficult for me. I just wanna go take a poke at the 1000 yard target on the hill. But it'll have to wait til I find a good load and get some drop data formulated.

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yep....just have to wait.
getting accurate/consistant results from you doing your homwork on load development is the major roll player for wanting to play for distance.
I presume that because its a soft point....your looking for a long distance hunting load?

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Originally Posted by eddiesindian

yep....just have to wait.
getting accurate/consistant results from you doing your homwork on load development is the major roll player for wanting to play for distance.
I presume that because its a soft point....your looking for a long distance hunting load?

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Yeah I am striving for MOA accuracy. If my barrel wont do it, I will swap it out and probably go with a 6.5 or 7mm. We shall see.

Here's where I am so far.
http://www.savageshooters.com/showth...he-brotherhood

I am on a budget, hence all of the "make it work" in my rifle build and ammo. I like the Gameking bullet. Cheap, and I have heard they give good results. I may try Bergers later, when budget allows and I have a solid load built to use while playing with the Bergers. Just trying to get something together for this year and practice with it before deer and elk season hit. Bear season starts this week... I am nowhere near ready. But, I don't really like hunting when it is 100 degrees out anyway, so it can wait. I ordered 3 AR500 gongs today. 8", 10" and 12". Just need to dial these loads in so I can start collecting dope.

what did you pay for the ar500 steel?

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Originally Posted by eddiesindian

what did you pay for the ar500 steel?

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90 bucks on ebay, with free shipping... Please dont tell me I got ripped off... Lol.

thats about the going price. I 2 was looking at them on e-bay as well, but came across some free scrap 1/2 thick plates that I was able to make some swinging targets out of.
I work at a Ford dealership and its (at times) pretty easy for me to come acroos some scrap metal to makes my gongs/swingers. Ill use everything from axles/u bolts/shift shafts/leaf springs/steering box pitman arms to make my targets.
Lately, Ive been making stands out of leaf springs, welding scrap 1/2 thick 8X8 plates to the leaf springs, burrying the stands in cement out in a valley where we shoot from 100 out to 1K...no more setting up targets,,,just show up,,,and start smacking the steels

Ya. I am gonna have my exhaust guy bend up some frames out of exhaust pipe. It's cheap and if it gets all shot to hell I can just pitch it and get another one.

I too work in automotive. I manage an independent shop. It's fun rummaging. We took apart a Subaru tranny and I cut the input shaft down and spiked the end and it has a gear at the end. The "Zombie Knocker". My truck club.

I wish I had a place where I could set up and leave my stuff. Too many dik heads around here would steal it. But the gongs hanging on exhaust pipe frames should be portable enough. And with all the logging around here you can drive just about anywhere and drop one off and drive to a good spot to shoot from.

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Originally Posted by therichardpowell

Ya. I am gonna have my exhaust guy bend up some frames out of exhaust pipe. It's cheap and if it gets all shot to hell I can just pitch it and get another one.

I too work in automotive. I manage an independent shop. It's fun rummaging. We took apart a Subaru tranny and I cut the input shaft down and spiked the end and it has a gear at the end. The "Zombie Knocker". My truck club.

I wish I had a place where I could set up and leave my stuff. Too many dik heads around here would steal it. But the gongs hanging on exhaust pipe frames should be portable enough. And with all the logging around here you can drive just about anywhere and drop one off and drive to a good spot to shoot from.

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yep...I hear you......It amaze,s me to no end how the brain of some shooters work. You cant leave anything out there becuase they wanna take/steal it. If they,d stop and think about it for just a bit...they,d realize that if they leave it put, they too can enjoy the use of it as well as others and not have to spend time setting up for a days worth of shooting

I have always had good luck with IMR-4895 in 308 if you can find some. I run a pretty hot load of it and my primers don't look any worse for the wear than yours do...if you are not experiencing hard bolt lifts or other signs (cracked necks or separated heads) I wouldn't be to overly worried with it yet. But I would cease using magnum primers in a 308...

If your primer pockets expand after only a few reloads you know you are on the hot side. I have started having loose pockets after only 2-3 reloads of flattened primers. Too hot for me. Probably isn't a definitive test for a hot load but is a sure sign for me.

My thoughts are headspacing. The firing pin drives the case forward and then the primer unseats slightly when the round fires, the case stretches back and the slightly pround primer is slammed into the bolt face causing it to flatten. I don't see any cratering around the pin strike. Try the same loads with neck sized brass from your rifle. They have been fire sized to your chamber.

BTW, all the loads in the Lee book are, from what I can see, from other sources such as Hodgdon and Lapua.

I have seen factory ammo with primers so flat you would bet it was over pressured. Way worse than any of your photos.

I watch primer flatness more for just to judge how the pressure is moving up but dont put too much weight on just that.

Also Cratering, but mostly I watch brass flow. When I see the round circle on the brass from the ejector hole, or a swipe on a semi auto, I call that slightly over pressured and back off.

Also case head expansion but you will get brass flow signs way before significant case head expansion.