Shilen vs McGowen?

Are shilens worth the extra money over a McGowen? Also, are the shilen select match barrels worth the extra $100 over their standard grade match barrels? I'm looking to have a bull barrel made in 270 for a long range/tactical build, that serves for medium-game hunting and varmint hunting.

prices (all pre-fitted to my specs)

McGowen Chrome-Moly - $270 + S&H
McGowen stainless - $299 + S&H

Shilen Chrome-Moly "match grade" - $345 + S&H
Shilen Stainless "match grade" - $374 + S&H
Shilen Stainless "select match" - $449 + S&H

It may depend on what you are trying to do. When You start getting into the 450 range buying a profiled blank starts looking like a good option. That is where you can get the barrel chambered for not only your cartridge but if you're going heavy(long) the smith can cut the throat where it needs to be as well.

It could be said that the difference between .4" groups and .2 groups is the money spent on the barrel.

If only i could be assured of .2" groups. Anyway, I really hadn't considered doing a contoured blank. I just looked it up and 277 Krieger contoured blanks are $315. (less than I thought) If I got one of these, how much do you think it would cost me to have a smith thread, chamber, and install it?

Contact local reputable smiths. Discuss what you want to do. What weight of bullet you intend on using. Don't rush him but request a time frame.

This way can determine if you want to delete the barrel nut. Have him at least true the action face. Whatever you want since you are expecting him to assemble it.

My guy does chambers for 75. Threading the tenon would probably be between 125 to 200 depending on how you wanted it done, barrel nut or no barrel nut unless you know a guy that has very reasonable rates but it would be worth the money. You could pay up to 300 maybe in a worst case scenario. If you had planned on your own head spacing that would be a different story.

I can speak on the part of Shilen barrels, as I have owned a few. I have a McGowan coming, and we will see how it compares. I can speak for McGowan's employees, they are top notch and customer service is their top priority. I have heard many satisfied customers rave about how good their McGowan barrels are. For the most part all premium barrel makers are going to be on par with each other. I have owned, Douglas, Brux, Krieger, Bartline, Hart, Shilen, and Criterion. Out of them all there isn't a nickels worth of difference in them, they all shoot great. The upper crust barrels offered like Douglas's double air gauge, or Shilen's select match, as far as them being worth more money, that only you can decide by the buyer, in my experience I have never seen where it made any difference. With that all said barrels have their own personality, and no two are the same, even if they have been made one right after, and chambered with the same machinery. There is going to be barrels that are Hummers, (A barrel that shoots better than any other.) and some that are bummers, (Barrels that don't shoots as good as others.) and that is from any manufacture, and there is no guarantee that you will get one or the other. Most barrels are in the middle ground, they shoot great, and perform as well as others. I would say it is safe to say that more than 3/4's of the barrels sold will not be put to the test of there highest ability, meaning most shooters lack the ability to push the barrel to its edge of accuracy potential. I will say that many competitive Benchrest shooters have, will , and continue to shoot Shilen barrels.

To finish this up, I would stay away from Chrome moly barrels, as the savings will be ate up with finishing the barrel. Bluing, or coatings can put the price of the barrel up to the same price as a stainless barrel. I hope this help you make your decision.

Ditto 82boy. I own(ed) Savage, McGowan, CBI, and Shilen barrels and they all shoot 1/2 MOA which is as good as I can do consistently. You need to have decent components (barrel, stock, scope, trigger, etc) but working up a good load is probably more important than anything else. Having said that I have ordered a Brux so I can continue to remove all the excuses and push myself into becoming a better shooter.

Your pricing seems high, are you adding something extra? Have you checked with Jim Briggs at nss? His prices are better if your not adding "special" work.

I only order non profiled blanks and agree they all have potential if done right.I have yet to shoot a stainless barrel that will out perform a chrome molly barrel from any manufacturer.

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Originally Posted by Captlink

I have yet to shoot a stainless barrel that will out perform a chrome molly barrel from any manufacturer.

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How many barrels of each have you shot? What was your criteria to come to this conclusion.

He says he is a master gunsmith.

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I own(ed) Savage, McGowan, CBI, and Shilen barrels

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Me too. The CBI gets my vote for the best.

I have ER Shaw barrels that will shoot with barrels with XX grades and prices to match.A great barrel will not perform if its prepared poorly.I have "heard" that stainless is great but have never seen it in real life from rifles to pistols.The accuracy is usually very good but not outstanding.

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Originally Posted by Kaianuanu

If only i could be assured of .2" groups. Anyway, I really hadn't considered doing a contoured blank. I just looked it up and 277 Krieger contoured blanks are $315. (less than I thought) If I got one of these, how much do you think it would cost me to have a smith thread, chamber, and install it?

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Assurance of .200 groups or less from any barrel manufacturer is going to be very tough. Starting with the shooter, many factors go into making these kind of groups happen. If a manufacturer could make this happen, everybody else would be out of business.

I will admit as many barrels as I have gone through, I have only had a few that I could semi-consistently depend on .200 groups or less. And on the days I didn't, it was me not having a good day. Usually .250 is my mark and I can hold my own @ 600 yards with these barrels (Stainless).

I have shot all my life and used many different brand barrels until recently. I wore out a Broughton which turned out to be one of the best barrels I have ever owned! I put it over the 2 Krieger's I have owned.

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how much do you think it would cost me to have a smith thread, chamber, and install it?

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The above is going to depend on the smith you choose. Prices vary, just make sure you get a reputable smith. Good smith's well known are going to charge for their workmanship, but it's usually worth it.

Whatever way you decide to go, your going to have to do your part. Practice is critical. Loading your bullets require a lot of testing and patience. Brass prep IMO is critical, at least it made a difference with me. Your loaded rounds have to be consistent, to the thousandths. A good properly adjusted trigger is a must. The point I am making is it takes more than a barrel to make <.250 groups happen consistently.

Just for kicks, below is a target shooting 123 Scenars out of my current 6.5x47 Lapua. Blowing up spotters at 600 is no problem. I have 4 rifles I can depend on for this type of accuracy. I could post pictures of the other targets. But I wanted to show this one as 1/10 grain of powder makes a difference. Seating depth is critical as well. Target states bullets are kissing the lands, but I am probably about .002 off. A few other factors play a part too. All rifles sport Savage Actions. (PTA's)

Before I am asked, the hole with the X through it was one of my first sighter shots for the day.

Load info on these targets may be HOT in your rifle. If you try to copy the loads, start 2.0 grains lower and work up. Also start .010 off the lands with your bullets and work in if necessary.

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/a...fectBEST-2.jpg

Another group 22-250

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/a...2grBergers.jpg

6brx load development

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/DSC02538.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kaianuanu

If only i could be assured of .2" groups. Anyway, I really hadn't considered doing a contoured blank. I just looked it up and 277 Krieger contoured blanks are $315. (less than I thought) If I got one of these, how much do you think it would cost me to have a smith thread, chamber, and install it?

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Expecting .2 groups form a 270 may be asking a bit much. Out of all the barrels I have listed if they don't shoot at least .2 groups in a 6 PPC I throw them out. Right now it is 16+ month wait for a Krieger blank, and when you have it finished you will have close to $500 in it.

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Expecting .2 groups form a 270 may be asking a bit much.

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Agree, even though the 270 is considered on of the best hunting rounds available, It's not a match rifle.

Dennis

I think you can get a 270 to shoot as good as any other caliber, the problem is the lack of good quality high BC match bullets. Berger has a 150gr with .531 BC that would probably be pretty good. You might want to look at a 6.5mm or 7mm, bullet choices are much better.

As far as barrel choices you really can't go wrong with any of the match grade barrel makers. I am biased toward Pac-Nor as I have had really good luck with their barrels. That being said, I just built a 6.5 Creedmoor with a McGowen for a buddy. I am still doing load development for it, but it looks like it will be a .2 to .4 moa gun. He should be able to get on steel out to 1500 as he gets more trigger time at long distance under his belt.

shoalwater, keep us posted on your load development. The 6.5 Creedmoor is very popular.

Dennis

Yes JP, Keep us updated and let me know when your comming this way. I still need to pick that stuff up for you.

I thought would share this, here is a 5 shot group shot out of a McGowan barrel at 100 yards, on a 100 degree day, with heavy switching winds. I shot this with old junk brass that has been loaded at least 75 times. I had one bullet that jumped out of the group, and I can say this was caused by brass problems, as this piece repeated the action, and was thrown out. Shots 1,2,3, and 5 are in the small hole shot #4 is the hole above it. I think the pictures tell the tale.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...ps12980dc0.jpg

Nice shooting Patrick!

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Originally Posted by MikeCTX

Nice shooting Patrick!

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Thank you, I shot a few groups like this today. Once I get new brass for this thing I think it will be a competitive barrel. Once the barrel is broke in it may shoot a bit better. I would like to see it shoot a bit smaller, and I think it is in the cards.

The group is impressive what is the gun set up and did you build it.

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Originally Posted by Captlink

The group is impressive what is the gun set up and did you build it.

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Yes I built it. It started life as a Savage Model 11 pre accu-trigger. It has a custom made laminate stock, similar in design to a Tom Meredith TMBR. It was T&Ted by SSS, with an Evolution trigger that breaks at 2ozs. It has a SSS made PPC bolt head, and flings cases like nobody's business. It has one of the first fluted bolt bodies that SSS did. I have a set of Tally rings on the gun, and with a Savage varmint contour barrel, cut at 22 inches makes the gun weighs in at 10.2 lbs. Prior to the McGowan barrel I have a Krieger barrel chambered in 6 PPC, and have shot some great groups with it. (Aggs in the mid .2's) Also at one time I had a 30BT Douglass barrel on the gun and shot many small groups with it, but the recoil was a bit more than I likes so I sold the barrel. I also have added weight to the gun placed a 8 twist 6br barrel and shot some 600 yard match's, again the gun did well. Here are some pictures.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/HPIM1813.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...advatarebr.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/HPIM1574.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/HPIM1573.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/HPIM1572.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/HPIM1571.jpg
30BR barrel
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...Brtest1001.jpg
Krieger 6PPC barrel
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...0002-2-1-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...scan0003-2.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...scan0003-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...y/scan0004.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...scan0002-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d145/82boy/scan-1.jpg

A Savage select match barrel from NSS is <$350 complete. It makes no financial sense to buy a blank and pay someone to chamber and crown it for a Savage, and if it fails to perform neither the blank maker not the Smith is going to accept responsibility for it. Given that Shilen makes complete prefits barrels, you have a warranty when buying one of them that is effective. It would be the same way when buying a prefit from McGowan or CBI. As soon as a 3rd party cuts on it, forget about any warranty, same if you use the fire lapping system.

My Shilen barrels have been the best performing barrels I have owned. Given that Lilja and others do not make prefit barrels, I have not had cause to deal with them and I have gotten rid of my last Remington rifle so will never need anything but prefits in the future. If you need a barrel in a less popular twist rate, caliber or chambering, going with a prefit will not save any time compared to the custom route, but it is less expensive overall and you are buying 1 vendors final product. That alone is worth a lot since you know that their reputation is based on delivering that product to the highest standard.

Nice build!
I have been looking at the 30BR and Krieger to break into Bench Rest shooting I'm undecided on class at this time but will listen as I know little to nothing about the sport.
It would take me hours on end to cut that bolt body and I bet SSS did with the push of a button :frusty:

82boy, I would put money on this rifle shooting <.200 groups as the norm. Groups look great. Dennis

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Originally Posted by Captlink

Nice build!
I have been looking at the 30BR and Krieger to break into Bench Rest shooting I'm undecided on class at this time but will listen as I know little to nothing about the sport.

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Honestly if your looking to compete in Benchrest you best bet is to go to a couple of match's, and see what everyone else is doing. By the time you put the money into a Savage you will have the cost of a used custom action rifle, and I hate to say it you would be better off with the custom action rifle. In short range Benchrest (100-300 yards) you have group shooting, and score shooting. In group you have Light varmint, Heavy varmint, Sporter, and unlimited. A light gun will fit in all of these classes. In score, you have hunter, and varmint, and again the light varmint for group shooting will work in varmint class. With that said a light varmint rifle would be your best bet. Right now Krieger's wait time is 16 months for a blank, and honestly they will not shoot any better than the other barrels made. I would steer you away from the 30 br, the cartridge is labor intensive, Bullets are super hard to find, and the recoil is punishing at best, and honestly it will not outshine a 6 PPC.

Appreciate the input.
I may never compete but want to build a hyper accurate rifle for myself.
It's funny you mention bullets I just got off the Corbin page.:cool:
I like the life of a cut barrel and for all the work involved doing it less is good.
I have a 10FP fit for rework or I may cut my own action time will tell.
Nothing is set in stone I am looking at all options.

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Originally Posted by Captlink

Appreciate the input.
I may never compete but want to build a hyper accurate rifle for myself.
It's funny you mention bullets I just got off the Corbin page.:cool:
I like the life of a cut barrel and for all the work involved doing it less is good.
I have a 10FP fit for rework or I may cut my own action time will tell.
Nothing is set in stone I am looking at all options.

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Life of a cut barrel, and a button rifle barrel is hardly notable. Barrel life depends more on the amount of powder burnt. In a 6 PPC we can get great accuracy out of one up to and past 4000 rounds. If you planning on building your own action, I would recommend getting Stuart Otteson's book on bechrest actions. The sad thing is there is nothing new, everything is just a rehashed idea from the past. The Panda has been virtually unchanged since 1971, the Bat actions are copies of the old Shilen actions. Untimely they are all Remington 700 clones. I have had some ideas on making an action, maybe some day they will be put to practice.

I have the Otteson book and for the last many years I have been gathering tools to build my own actions.The last critical pieces are falling into place.My experience with cut barrels is from my service days shooting a M-40 with the M-118 the life and accuracy of the combination were impressive.
I would love to discuss your ideas I have a few of my own a collaboration is possible.

How bad is tis group? I was fire forming new brass in my McGowan 22 PPC, when out from under my wooden bench comes a angry swarm of Hornets'. After I got stung twice, once in the arm, and the other in my leg. I moved to another bench, and with no wind flags shot this group. this is 5 shots at 100 yards, after being stung.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1...psed1c360c.jpg

Looks Great!