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I have loaded about 30 rounds in the past week and I have had 3 shells where the cci200 have not ignite. After the first 2 I figured it was the primers being old so I bought 2 new boxes and I had one fail to fire. I don't have a problem with the same gun and Winchester work which I have shoot over 50 in the past 2 weeks. I haven't check my firing pin clearance, I need to find what it is suppose to be
Anyone else have this problem?
I found the primer pockets on some LC brass to be too deep. If you fully seat the primer they are recessed and the firing pin may not get a good strike on it.
I use CCI almost exclusively & can honestly say I've never had a misfire. Now, Remington is a different story. Especially in my pistols....
Interesting you mention the primer pocket. I started using the cci on Winchester brass and never had problems. This load is on federal shells so who knows.... I will check that when I get home.
Chamber a fired shell and drop the hammer on it. With no explosion pushing the primer back you can see what real contact the pin is having on the primer. ;-)
same here----Ive never had a CCI-200 "not" ignite. Ive been using 200,s exlusively for the past 10 plus yrs.
LC brass has been the only brass my Savage 10 has seen.
Trigger too light?
Brass pocket too deep?
Ive never had an issue with primer pockets being too deep on my 308 LC brass
imo...you can see/feel the depth of the primer after youve press,d it in.
Lets us know what you find out.
Im curious..........
I bought a batch of 500 primed shells from pulled military ammunition. About 2/3 was LC 12 LR "sniper" brass. Good stuff and the primers were not crimped. The balance was LC 10, 11 and 12 "regular" brass with the crimped primers.
The deep primer pockets were exclusively on the "regular" LC 12 brass. I deprimed all of it since I had no idea why the military had the ammo pulled in the first place. I did find about 10 shells with split necks (remember this is unfired brass). So between the split necks and the too deep primer pockets, I don't know which was the cause for rejection. The LR brass is excellent stuff though.
Havent look at it yet guys. went fishing and when i got back home I found myself on the wrong side of the bottle real quick. Dont like to play with reloading stuff that way.. will let you know what i find as soon as I find. I never had problems with my other rifle so i spect it to be either the brass or the firing pin...
The federal shells primer pockets are shallower than the winchester. I measured the shell that did not fire and about 5 or 6 that did and could not find any difference. My firing pin is .075" so is .025 longer than what it should. I will adjust the firing pin later and see if that makes a difference...
Make sure you seat them hard against the bottom of the pocket. If the firing pin pushes them forward it may not have enough energy for ignition. Another consideration is the position of the shoulder. If the shoulder is undersize then the cartridge may travel too far forward and also get a poor strike. If it is not LR brass then it is basically machine gun ammo. I'm not much of a fan of that stuff. But others here have had no issue with it.
LR brass?
Yes, if the headstamp reads LC XX LR then it is sniper ammo which is a different quality and the first give away is that the primers are not crimped. XX = the year of manufacture. It is far more consistent than the regular stuff.
I bought a 500 round bag of pulled brass at Wideners and as it happened 2/3 was LR brass and 1/3 was the "regular" stuff. Guess which I found the deep primer pockets on ????
great info guys
Ignition problems can raise havoc, and can be hard to diagnose. An ignition problem is always there but many times goes unnoticed until something's changes, such as temperature, components, etc. The first question I would ask when someone is experience an ignition problem is; "What have you changed?" Many people want to mess around with there firing pin length, cut coils off of springs, change out springs, change out triggers ETC, and these things can all cause ignition problems. I would state unless you know EXACTLY what your doing , do not change anything in the action. There are certain parameters that must be reached to get proper ignition.
Now going on to the ammo its self, if the firing pin is properly set up it will have more than enough length to battle primer seating depth, as the primer stops the firing pin from full travel. A simple thing to ask are you uniforming the primer pockets every time you fire? One thing that will cause cold fire/ and or ignition problems is the primers not being fully seated against the case. When a primers not fully seated, this takes away inertia of the firing pin, and causes the firing pin to seat the primer, and what is remaining to fire the primer. Cleaning a primer pocket is better than doing nothing at all, but the primer pocket needs uniformed after each firing to be consistent, and have the best chance of accuracy.
If there is a chance those primers failed due to my reloading it will have to be me not seating the primers properly. Unfortunately I ran those shells by the decaping die already. I do clean the primer pockets and make sure the flash hole is unobstructed.
Here is a pic of one of the shells that failed to ignite.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...708_205348.jpg
Ya know, looking at that photo, by all rights it should have lit off....
And you're absotively, posolutely sure the firing pin is CONSISTANTLY doing it's thing? Each time, every time?
Just asking. Sometimes its the littlest thing that'll drive ya batty.
How deep is your primer from the face of the case? The primer strike could be light. Like Frank said...look at the bolt assembly. Take it apart and make sure it is smooth. If the bolt head retaining pin is twisted it can drag.
Something else to consider that can drive you nuts is that the sear is in fact the bolt release and if it binds on the stock inletting or any bedding material, it will restrict the motion of the firing pin (at least initially) the same way that the accutrigger blade does. Depending on whether you have the side release or the bottom release it could be hanging up on different places in the stock.
Too light of a trigger adjustment?
To my untrained eye that looks like the primer is driven pretty deep into the cup--but that still looks like a respectable impact from the pin. Intriguing! I'd be curious if the cups were cleaned was there any difference felt when seating the primer? That seems to be a very high proportion of misfires for a fairly small set of loads.
Global warming?....
I side with the chupacabra...Quote:
Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla
Team, keep in mind that I have shot twice as many Winchester primers from the same gun on the same shooting session as the cci missfires with no issue so I doubt it is the firing pin. However I will still look into it.
Looking at the primer strike it looks extremely light, and looks like there is a ignition problem within the action. The shape of the firing pin dent doesn't look right either. Have you blanked any primers in the past? The reason I ask, is sometime when a primer is blanked (Broken open.) the gas will misshape the firing pin, or even break the firing pin, and cause ignition problems. (primer blanking can also cause other problems that can add to ignition problems.) For proper ignition you need the firing pin strike to dent the primer at least .019. (There is a procedure to measure this, and you don't just measure the dent in the primer.) You start going down from this number you will experience what is know as cold fire.(The primer ignites but doesn't have its full energy.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandy
Don't jump to this conclusion so fast, I would say your having ignition problems, and even though the primers go off on the Winchester primer your on the verge of cold fire. When you switch to a primer with a different thickness of cup, this magnifies this cold fire situation, and makes it a no fire situation. If you fix the problem and have proper ignition, you may find that accuracy goes way up, even with your old primers. Have you ever had shots that just don't make sense? The bullet goes in an unpredicted area. This is what cold fire will produce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandy
Im just going to use the bolt firepin that fred (sss) worked on. All I have to do is change the bolthead and double check my headspace... will post back... once I get to use those shells but the way it looks is that I wont be using them for a bit due to lack of bullets..
Don't forget to double check your firing pin protrusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandy
check your firing pin protrusion. here's the link.
http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...rotrusion-Data
I switched to Rem primers over the CCIs, like them better!
It is fairly well known that CCI primers have harder cups.
yep-yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
thats "one' of the reasons why I use them on my progressive press,s as well.
To my eyes.....the strike is too light
I just got done adjusting the firing pin. The ping protrusion is .040 (it was either that or .033) and the spring has been compressed to 2.596. Now I will be extra careful seating the primers and hopefully I will not see this problem again... The load doing this is a hunting load and that is the last thing I want to happen when I have game in sights....
I had a problem with CCI200 primers when I was using them for my 7mm Magnum. There was a half second delay between the firing pin striking the primer and the primer igniting. I switch to Winchester LRM primer and resolved the issue. Can you give your complete load data for your 30-06?
I had a very similar problem using cci 450's in my 6mm dasher using Lapua Brass. About 1/3 of the rounds would not ignite. My unignited primers looked pretty much like the one in this thread. I was convinced that CCI had a bad batch of primers so I called them. Talked to a very nice gentlemen. He told me that CCI's failure rate in primers is something like 1 in a million primers or less. He then told me the lapua brass has deeper primer pockets as they are based on a european standard and not SAMI. Anyway he told me to seat them 3 to 5 thousandths below flush. It would ensure the primer was tight against the brass and would ignite. I did what he told me and now they everything goes bang. I would try and seat them a little deeper and see if the problem goes away.
psharon, sorry for the delay. I meant to reply to you but it slipped my head.
Reminton 165 corelokts bc .339
Accurate 4350 58.9 gr
CCI 200LR
Federal case
Case oal 2.699
A&B 30-06, 1-10, 24", Sporter Barrel
best group is .22" at 100yds worst group I had so far is .5somthing...
As good as this is shooting I really want to work the kinks out of the primer issue.
I am setting the primer all the way in and will do some testing soon on a different bullet but using the same cci primers in the same federal shells...
I confirmed this weekend I am having FTF also with the winchester primers. so that leaves the problem pointing to the action. I think I have another firepin and will swap whatever I have. I had the ftf with the gun being stock and after the bolt adjustmet, SSS trigger and A&B barrel swap so this might be the reason why the owner sold the gun to the gun shop I bought it from... it was set up as a 7mm rem mag so I swapped the stock, barrel, bolt head, barrel nut, recoil lug, magazine and follower.
Out of the 5 total shells I had ftf in the last session only one fired at a second attemp and the other one did not fire in a second attemp but did fire on another try after I very reluctantly used the primer seating tool one more time but I did not felt the primer got seated any deeper or moved at all. Another shell that got the same primer reseating treatment did not go off... So at this time I am not looking too much at the primer seating and definitely not looking at the primer brand.
82boy, what do I need to look in more detail on that cold fire situation? I can pull the bullets off the shell to see if the primer did go off at all. I will pull my firepin out and if I have another one (i think i do) i will replace it. I dont want to replace too many things as I want to make sure I find the culprit...
Thanks y'all!
I could not see any difference on the 2 firepins other than the one I am having FTF was "pitted" and it would measure from .067 to .069 while the other firepin was a solid .066. Change it and set it up as http://www.savageshooters.com/conten...rotrusion-Data indicates. Will shoot friday but not many loads... we shall see..
Two other things to look at Nandy. Firing pin spring tension and or preload. Also make sure the cross pin is indexed with the hole on axis.
good luck
Double check you aren't contaminating primers during the storage or reloading process. (Adding oil to finished bullets has caused such things to happen)
I know this may not be said for most reloaders but I like to begin with the simple things first.
good luck
Michael
I not sure if there is a way to measure the spring that I can do. I did set it up so the spring is compressed to 2.6 as in mentioned in the article. What I do to make sure the cross pin is indexed right is to make sure I here it bottoming out when I flipflop the bolt without the BAS installed. If I turn the bolt facing down and I can see the fire ping come out of the bolthead then I call it good after a few cycles of that. Is there a better way to do this? I am hopping it was the irregular fire pin head, that is the only thing I can see that is not "perfect".Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
Michael, I tend not to touch the primers, they go from the package I buy them to the primer tray without me touching them at all. Brass has been cleaned with a comercial brass cleaning solution and dry on air. Usually they have been dried for days before I load them. All of these primers are brand new (as I bought them in the last 2 months) and 2 different brands and those between the same brand are different batches. They all get stores inside the house in my reloading bench drawers where I have all the dies. Powders go in a different drawer. That makes me feel fairly sure they are not contaminated but nothing is 100%. I will look at them with my magnifier next time I have a bath in ready for priming. I will look and clean my priming tool, that might be it...
Funny thing is I have tried in the past to kill primers. I used water, 123 oil, some other oil, wd40 and carburetor cleaner and none of that killed those primers... I still have a batch of primers I took out of brass that I dont want to use and I dont have the heart to throw in the trash because I dont seem to find a way to kill them and they soot the crap out of the gun you shoot them from.... But of course, with my luck I will find out it is my priming tool contaminating the primers!!! lol!
One more idea. Check your overtravel on your trigger. Not enough and the sear drags possibly slowing down the pin.
okay, I will double check that but I had the same problem with the oem trigger and the sss trigger it has now. I rather things plain breaks than stuff like this...
Nandy,
I realize this thread is some what older but thought I'd share my experience. With the ammo panic last year I bought up a great deal of the basics that I use extensively. I have generally used CCI-200 and Winchester LR Primers. I purchased a fair amount of both and reloaded spring and summer for load tuning and the Fall hunting season. Recently I reloaded a number of rounds for my .308 and new .260 for some more load development. I had in the order of 10 -15 FTF's in about a 100 # load lot. It was pretty disturbing because I had never had this experience with any CCI primers. They were stored in my safe in my garage. I figured the humidity may be a factor and have moved my stock indoors. I also bought an additional 1000 CCI-200's when I stumbled upon them in a local dealer. I loaded up for the fall hunt around 60 rounds with the new ones and have had 4 more FTF's 2 each in both rifles. All FTFs have been solid primer strikes and upon disassembling all the loads I found no evidence of humidity issues in powder, internal cartridge or punched out primers. At this point I have no answer except to suspect CCI for the first time in my 30 plus years of shooting them has a bad batch out there. I have taken the steps to keep my primers "High and Dry" but it is a bit disturbing every time I've put the crosshairs on an animal that the round may not fire and I'll here that dud click ! It has not cost me any game harvests. l but on the range it has shaken my confidence. Nothing more disconcerting than that "dry thunk". I will continue to monitor the status of the CCI's. I am wondering if it is specific to a particular lot in the production run.?
mp
May be the result of "pushing" to meet the demand ? ? ? ;-(