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first question..Has anyone on here ever used one of those
temp. stiks? you know the ones you use to mark your brass
that lets you know when you have reached the proper temp.
I ordered one that is 650 degrees. I read where that is
supposed to be the right temp. to anneal...
2nd. question..is it really nessasery to put the brass in water?
why can't it air cool? then you don't have to bother drying
the cases..thanks for any info. you care to share..John
templaq.
I use it to set up my torch. Depending on your setup you need the brass to dwell in the flame long enough for it to get to temperature. For the second half of your question, The reason for the water is to prevent heat soak. If the process is fast enough with the heat concentrated in the right place you may not need to drop it in water.
If the heat does soak into the web then the brass gets too soft and the result can and will be catestrophic to some degree. When the brass is formed it is work hardened in that area and is critical for it to remain that way.
It has been my experience that this process is critical for accurate loads with brass that has been fired several times. Someone please correct me if I have given any bad information.
I've never used the tempilaq / temp indicator. I do heat the shoulder until I see a pale bluish color to the neck then. a quick quench in water.
And from what I've read about the subject, Stang is right about the heat traveling toward the case head. That's an area that needs to stay a bit harder.
I find annealing does increase accuracy & especially brass life. Every 3rd firing it gets "the treatment".
If you heat it too much you will see off gasses change the color of your flame. This is some of the elements that make up the alloy burning off. That brass is usable but will never have sufficient neck tension again.
Especially if it gets real shiny.....
I believe that would be the zinc coming out of the alloy.
All in all, it's not difficult to do. Practice on a few non-usable pieces first. Make up a holder of sort to save finger tips.
You can use water to prevent the case head from overheating, but it is not required to quench. The properties of brass do not change based on the rate of cooling like steel and other alloys do.
The shorter you heat it and the faster you quench it, the less oxidation you will have. Standing the cases in water is a guaranteed way to ensure that you absolutely do not anneal the base of the cartridge since if you are doing it by hand the process is somewhat imprecise.
Anything that is copper based is an excellent conductor and the risk with the process is that you get the base too hot. The water takes care of that problem. If you have an annealing machine, they provide a repeatable process that will turn out perfectly annealed parts time after time, once you get it dialed in. Usually the cartridges rotate to provide fast even heat input.
I'm not so sure about the quenching being of no consequence. Usually with non ferrous materials, one quenches to keep material soft, whereas with steel one quenches to keep it hard. Slow cooling with non ferrous alloys usually promotes what is called precipitation hardening which involves a particular type of grain growth that occurs during slow cooling. I thought that the annealing machine I saw dropped the cartridge into a bucket of water once it had made its trip around the wheel.
If I am not mistaken, what geargrinder is saying is that some folks use a tray with standing whater to cover the web by standing all of the brass up on the head. Then heat the necks to anneal and the heat soak can never reach the web due to case standing in a coolant/water. Then ther is no nead to submerge the whole case.
A trick is to use some vinegar and some detergent mixed with the water if you do quench your brass and let it sit in the solution for a few minutes and the brass get real clean that way. Make sure you rinse it well. You can use the oven set at 150 or so to dry your brass so it doesn't tarnish afterwards.
Never used the tempilac. However, I've worked out a simple method for annealing.
Take a 1/2" square steel bar, drill a hole that's a loose fit for the case neck.
Clamp this up securely then heat it red hot with an oxy-acetylene torch.
Insert the case and watch the color change move to the shoulder like on new brass.
Holding the case with bare fingers is no problem.
I drop them in a bucket of water just as a means of taking care of the hot brass.
Reheat and repeat. Once set up, it goes pretty fast.
As mentioned above, quenching is not necessary.
Those in this thread that anneal, can you tell me at what distance you are shooting. I currently don't shoot over 600yards due to the fact that there isn't a range longer than that here.
I have never annealed my brass, I have a good 8-9 reloads out of my current brass and the primer pockets are tight, the brass still looks fine and the bullets are real accurate.
I guess I'm trying to find the real world benefit of annealing other than the science behind it that in theory makes it last longer.
IE: At what point in shooting did you decide annealing will fix my accuracy issues?
When the brass started getting hard and springy. Shoulders start becoming inconsistent and the pressure required to push the bullet in the neck becomes more and more difficult. Some cartridges and light loads as well as how you size your brass can have an impact on need. Load up some new brass then load up some of your older brass and you will feel the difference. It may be esoteric.
I don't have this problem... But then again I sold my savage and got a weatherby due to their action design. So it may be more action specific than brass specific. I get what your saying, and i agree that it does expand, i just dont have the issue due to my specific action.
Good info, thanks!
I've noticed with my '06 brass - without annealing it splits the case necks & bullets don't press the same. I've got to where all brass is annealed every 3rd firing. I can get 12 to 16 firings out of '06 brass. I can't ever recall throwing away any .243 brass.
I don't shoot much further than 400 to 600yds before the jungle gets in the way.
PS - When I started shooting the 223wssm - the brass has to be annealed or the neck won't quite seal properly when firing (very thick). Softening the neck, due to annealing, fixed the problem.
I agree with the above, but find my shoulders won't size consistently, even with added pressure.Quote:
Shoulders start becoming inconsistant and the pressure required to push the bullet in the neck becomes more and more difficult.
When I started annealing (almost every firing on match brass), my shoulder headspace is very consistent and easy to FL size. My experience annealing makes a difference.
I let my brass air cool, I have never used water to cool the brass.
I have used Templiac, but as soon as I see the neck start turning (dim lighted room-easy to see) I pull the brass off the flame. I found this to be consistent with using Templiac and it melting clear.Quote:
I do heat the shoulder until I see a pale bluish color to the neck
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Good article showing a lot of different techniques
this is another subject that didnt get talked about much untill rather recently.
ive never annealed a case. most shooters ive known didnt either. now it seems everybody does it.
i had a long discussion with my gunsmith last fall about wether or not i should be doing it.
he made no big issue over it but said it cant hurt. he has been one of the top gunsmiths at
williamsport for decades. many years back there was an article in the rifleman about it.
they showed the cases standing in a baking pan with water. they just heated them till the right color
then tipped them over into the water. most of our losses are as a result or primer pockets loosening.
so the annealing wont help that anyway.
Only cases I anneal are those to be fireformed to other calibers.
Has eliminated case losses completely.
Quote:
this is another subject that didnt get talked about much untill rather recently.
I agree, Have you noticed how many great shooters there are nowdays. Technical understanding has brought the world a new level of expertice.
well im not here to argue but there are occaisions i think its ok to challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by stangfish
being somewhat elderly has few advantages. but one is hindsite.
there have always been great shooters. yes the equiptment we have today
is certainly better than ever. that means there are more of us able to do things
only the best were able to do in years past. fact is many of the 1000yd shooters
never annealed cases. that includes the man who held the 10 shot world record
for 14 years untill about 2 years ago. i dont think i or anyone is saying its a waste
of time dont do it. how about trimming the tips on match bullets?
we should all rush out and buy that tool also right? some will argue that if you dont
have a nightforce or schmit&bender scope you cant shoot long range. well what in hell did we use
before anybody ever even heard those names? and frankly thats not very long ago.
does a quarter or even a half grain of powder change your point of impact at 100 yds?
so why are we trickeling powder? we do it for us not the gun. we do lots of things for us.
the way I do mine is ...I put a socket in the drill and set the case in it and turn it slow..the tempstik I got seems to be working
ok.But I aint gonna put them in water.Then I will have to dry them,etc...actually by using the 1 10000 2 1000 method counting to 4 is just about right...lol I appreciate your replies,etc...My goal is to have a more consistend neck tention on the boolet....
You are entitled to do however you wish with your money and time.
But lets face a few facts:
Have you ever seen ammo, brass or other components as expensive or as hard to find as now ? In times past, ammo was so cheap plenty of people wouldn't even bother to pick up their brass, and shooting 1000 rounds of ammo in a day was no problem.
Are you better off financially today than 10 or 20 years ago ? Are you or your kids better able to afford college, a car or a home compared to then ? The fact is that we are becoming poorer and out money is becoming worth less every day, and there are now a few billion Indians and Chinese wanting the same steel, copper and aluminum, not to mention fuel and power than we do.
I think the trend in annealing brass is a reaction to the financial, scarcity and performance issues that have been alluded to. it is no longer so comfortable just throwing away brass that is over $1 (up to nearly $3) per shell. We also expect it to perform as good on the next firing as the last.
If you can afford to chuck your brass when it is no longer workable (and that may be after 2, 3 or 4 firings depending on caliber, load etc) then good for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yobuck
If there's a need to control grain growth, the brass got way too hot. The specific reason for using tempilaq and keeping temperatures low is to prevent changes to the grain structure.Quote:
I'm not so sure about the quenching being of no consequence. Usually with non ferrous materials, one quenches to keep material soft, whereas with steel one quenches to keep it hard. Slow cooling with non ferrous alloys usually promotes what is called precipitation hardening which involves a particular type of grain growth that occurs during slow cooling.
The 6mmbr web page goes into some detail on that, which I had not been aware of previously. I will have to see how the batch of brass does which I "tray annealed". So far it has shot fine with excellent repeatability. Since it is 308, I am guessing I probably have another 2 rounds to go before it will need to be annealed and the shoulder bumped back.
I don't know how they were discussing grain growth but it was probably over-simplified to the point that the technicalities were a little fuzzy. In order to get grain growth in the first place, the brass would has to be brought up to melting temperature (~900F) for the grain structure to break down so that it could then be "regrown" as it were. Do you know happen to know off-hand which article it is?Quote:
The 6mmbr web page goes into some detail on that, which I had not been aware of previously.
http://http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
But I think you misunderstood what I said. I was the one who believed the stuff about grain growth and that was contradicted by the 6mmbr article (which I would put more faith in).
There is also a pretty detailed article here http://bisonballistics.com/articles/...rass-annealing which disputes the risks of "over annealing" unless you anneal the base of the cartridge.
well now were talking a different situation. i totaly agree with all you just said. this country is going to hell and seemingly nobody cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Westcliffe01
can we keep it going long enough for me to get my 30 year pension and bennies seems to be the important issue for all to many.
but thats a whole nuther debate. this one was about we cant shoot good groups unless we anneal our brass.
i do intend to start annealing for the exact reasons you site. i have no illusions about it making me a better shooter however. im not gonna be annealing 500 223s to take on a prairie dog hunt. and guess what also, i aint trickeling the powder either.
Not for want of duplication, but shot these groups today with LC12 brass that I neck annealed after finding 2% split necks on UNFIRED brass. That suggests that the brass was not adequately annealed before the factory formed the necks in the first place.
I used the "primitive" cookie tin stand the case in water process and it seems to be working out for me.
First group
http://www.fotoshack.us/fotos/69355175smk-01.JPG
Last group
http://www.fotoshack.us/fotos/11583175smk-02.JPG
Bench rest shooters use custom chamber reamers and neck turned brass so that the brass only has 0.001" clearance for loading and so basically the necks are unable to expand out of their elastic range to begin with. So brass life for benchrest shooters has very little to do with brass life out of factory rifles...
Sorry about that. I probably just got confused about who said what. Both articles have excellent information about the actual process of recovery annealing brass. Some of the discussion about the grain structure is true but there's a lot more to story than what's presented and that's perfectly reasonable. They're how-to articles not textbooks.Quote:
http://http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
But I think you misunderstood what I said. I was the one who believed the stuff about grain growth and that was contradicted by the 6mmbr article (which I would put more faith in).
There is also a pretty detailed article here http://bisonballistics.com/articles/...rass-annealing which disputes the risks of "over annealing" unless you anneal the base of the cartridge.
To date I have watched and stuided videa and pictures of brass
annealing. In all they look like they are annealing the complete
mouth of the case down to and including the shoulder.
I thought the process was to JUST do the case mouth,where the bullet
goes in. Seems to me that they way they are doing this,might cause the
body to get over heated as well...IF you not doing them in the water
bath..I usually spin mine in a socket with a battery operated drill.
Am I doing it all wrong or should the whole thing be heated as it
is showing in the videa's,etc....Thanks for more info. on this if possible..
I fail to see why the shoulder has to be heated as well,or like I say
am I missing something here?
Do you want to bump the shoulder on work hardened brass ?
Usually one anneals after 3-4 firings and it is just as good as hammering the brass every time a round is fired. The reason the shoulder typically needs to get bumped is because of the work hardening making it hard to chamber. It certainly does no harm to soften the shoulder since what follows annealing is usually the shoulder bump or a full length sizing operation.
I have so far not found anyone making a body die for 6.5x284, nor a collet die to just size the necks. So that Lapua and Norma brass will probably get annealed every 3rd firing and then get full length sized. I wish that was not required, but can't see any other option right now.
Again. When the brass starts getting to a point where annealing is required the shoulder will loose the ability to be bumped back in a consistent way. It will become "springy". You dont have to do it this way, but you will not begin to realize the benefits unless you do. This was covered in #11 and 14 posts.