First build and a little unsure!

I would like to do my first Savage build, but have some questions.

The rifle I have now is an M11GL in 243 Win. with sporter contour barrel and blind mag with a 4.275" screw spacing and stagger feed.

The rifle will be used primarily for bench work and hopefully an occasional trip out west for prairie dogs.

I'm pretty sure I want to go with the 223, but can't decide if the 223AI would be better or not. Any opinions on cartridge choice would be greatly appreciated. Is the 223AI any less accurate than the standard 223?

For the barrel I have decided to go with a Shilen in a 24" CM Varmint contour. If anyone has any other suggestions for something better/cheaper I'm always open.

I have looked at several stocks, but being a left handed rifle I'm somewhat limited in my choices. The one I'm leaning toward is the Choate Ultimate Sniper.

One last question I have is, will replacing the recoil lug with a match lug gain any noticeable accuracy or is that unnecessary?

Thanks for the help in advance and you have a great site here!
Gary

First thing you need to think about is you will HAVE to change the bolt face if your going 223 And if I were to do this,I would make it a single shot...Cause your mag. isn't gonna work..As far as the recoil lug goes,you will get a ton of different answers about that..I have not noticed any difference in the builds I have done over the years...And as far as the Ackley Improved,my OWN opinion is it is a waste of money..All you gain is maybe 250 fps faster..You will need the dies for it..Like I said only my opinion...Some say it is a world of good and I know other who wish they had left it alone...If you want to go that route why not use what you have and make it a 243 AI then you can use your mag with it and not change the bolt any....Good luck with what ever you do...John

Some people think it is a pain to form ai cases but I believe it is time well spent as there will be less case trimming and full length sizing in an ai case. It took me about 3 hrs total from loading the cases (cream of wheat method) to shooting them. 100 cases will last a long time. Do 200 and you may have enough cases to reload for a couple of years. You could easily do 200 in 4-5 hours or less.

Having these stable cases may be enough alone to go ai but most people do it for better fps. Depending on the bullet you shoot I would say 100-150 fps faster in the ai version. Pretty much you'd be looking at a load that you would be seeing the regular 223 showing pressure signs shot with ease from the ai version.

Let's say you go ai, lengthen the throat (more case capacity), shoot coated bullets, use the best velocity powder for the cartridge, get a little longer barrel. Maybe you could in the end squeeze out 300-400 fps faster. My point is many little advantages can add up to a lot!

With that said. Seens how you are leaning towards a 22 caliber (223, 224) have you thought about a 22-250? It uses the same bolt face as the 243 and I am not sure but I think you could use the same magazine. It is the quintessential varmint cartridge. It easily beats the 223ai in fps and the 22-250ai is of course even faster.

I built a 223AI and really like it. Fire forming brass is no hassle, just chamber a 223 Rem and fire. I never have to trim brass with the AI. The big hassle is changing out the bolt head if the doner rifle is not already 223 Rem. Going single shot (for bench work) allows any action to be used.

Tom

Thank you all for the info. I guess I was leaning towards the AI version of the 223 more for case life than added velocity. The Shilen barrel I was looking at in 223AI has a neck diameter of only .252 and I was concerned that the cases would have to be neck turned, just more equipment to buy. Yea, I'm cheap!
Being a single shot would be fine, that's the way most of my rifles are loaded on the bench anyway. And I have a 22-250 in a Savage M12.(bolts on the wrong side)

Well I guess when the assault weapons ban DOES NOT pass 223 brass will be in abundance again so I think I'll just go with the standard 223.
Now to start ordering parts and wait the long wait!
Again, thanks for the help.

The magazine for the 223, left as is, won't work, but you can swap the magazine and follower for a 223 one, with no problems. Just so ya know the option is out there.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who fire-form AI cartridges. This is best done by firing a regular load in the chamber, after all this was the whole idea of the improved case. Accuracy will be fine and velocity will be down only slightly, I have three of them and would never take the time to load blanks.

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Originally Posted by handirifle

The magazine for the 223, left as is, won't work, but you can swap the magazine and follower for a 223 one, with no problems. Just so ya know the option is out there.

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Yea, I had thought that something like this would work...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/325...ngton-aluminum

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Originally Posted by kslefty

It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who fire-form AI cartridges. This is best done by firing a regular load in the chamber, after all this was the whole idea of the improved case. Accuracy will be fine and velocity will be down only slightly, I have three of them and would never take the time to load blanks.

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I had hoped to be able to fire factory ammo from the AI chamber, but the Shilen barrel has a tight neck and I am not sure this will work. I'm just not sure. :confused:

I can't find a left hand SA 223 bolt head anyway, so this may be on hold for a while. :(

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It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who fire-form AI cartridges. This is best done by firing a regular load in the chamber, after all this was the whole idea of the improved case. Accuracy will be fine and velocity will be down only slightly, I have three of them and would never take the time to load blanks.

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So the whole idea of the improved case is fireforming using bullets? I thought it was actually having an improved case?

It's ok if you want to spend more money fireforming brass but don't think just because you can fireform using bullets and I chose to do the majority of mine without bullets that somehow us none bullet fireformers are ill informed. I am well aware that you can use bullets as I have done fireforming both ways.

$0.42 a load is how much it would cost me to do fireforming with bullets. I can do fireforming using the cream of wheat method for about $0.05 per case. My brother gave me some shotgun powder that will probably last til the cows come home. So figure primers and a box of walmart brand cream of wheat is my total cost.

If you want to go shoot those fireforming loads with bullets that's fine. I'd rather just get it over with and start shooting the ackley loads asap.

Now that you know why some people choose a method other than what you use you can cease to be amazed.

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Originally Posted by GaryB

Yea, I had thought that something like this would work...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/325...ngton-aluminum




I had hoped to be able to fire factory ammo from the AI chamber, but the Shilen barrel has a tight neck and I am not sure this will work. I'm just not sure. :confused:

I can't find a left hand SA 223 bolt head anyway, so this may be on hold for a while. :(

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Not sure I know what you mean by "Shilen barrel has a tight neck and I am not sure this will work".

The thing about fire forming with blanks, is that it still erodes the throat of your barrel just as if you fired off a round, so if you are going to wear out the barrel you might as well get use out of it, you lose approx 10% FPS velocity when fire forming with a live round, but have yet to see any accuracy loss when doing so.

Tanks Dean

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Originally Posted by redman

Not sure I know what you mean by "Shilen barrel has a tight neck and I am not sure this will work".

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From Shilen
Products::Rifle Barrels::Chambers

Drawing upon 35 years of close involvement in the demanding sport of bench rest competition, we possess a unique understanding of the importance of a carefully aligned, precise chamber. Our chambers are painstakingly cut to a singular standard of machining excellence, because without an absolutely true chamber, no rifle will shoot to its full potential. Dimensional accuracy is also critical in every other step in the barrel-fitting process. Everything must be just right.
We are chambering and fitting Shilen barrels for the following cartridges. Please note that the dimensions in parentheses indicate special neck diameters. These are either "tight necks", which require turning case necks, or "minimum necks", which may or may not require neck-turning. If you have questions, please contact us for recommendations.

The neck on the Shilen barrel(223AI) is .252 and my Speer reloading manual shows the standard 223 brass is .253 when loaded. Maybe I'm making to much of this, but that says to me that it won't work. Case necks need to be turned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scope eye

The thing about fire forming with blanks, is that it still erodes the throat of your barrel just as if you fired off a round, so if you are going to wear out the barrel you might as well get use out of it, you lose approx 10% FPS velocity when fire forming with a live round, but have yet to see any accuracy loss when doing so.

Tanks Dean

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I had fully intended to fire form brass by just firing factory loaded cartridges in the AI chamber. Is that wrong?

"I had fully intended to fire form brass by just firing factory loaded cartridges in the AI chamber. Is that wrong?"
Not wrong at all Gary, that's exactly what I do, lets say you want 100 prepped cases, why wouldn't you use those 100 shots to better yourself, try stuff and really get to know the dynamics of your rig, let alone they enjoyment and getting that much better a shooter, prepping brass any other way is a chore. you can never have to much trigger time, no exceptions.

Tanks Dean

Scope Eye,

Thanks!

I ordered a stock, this one...
http://www.tacticalworks.com/Savage-...by-Choate.html

and I think I will contact Northland Shooters Supply in the next couple of days and see if they can get me a Criterion barrel in 223AI. Hopefully they will have, or can get, the bolt head I need also.

Thanks guys! I appreciate the help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scope eye

The thing about fire forming with blanks, is that it still erodes the throat of your barrel just as if you fired off a round, so if you are going to wear out the barrel you might as well get use out of it, you lose approx 10% FPS velocity when fire forming with a live round, but have yet to see any accuracy loss when doing so.

Tanks Dean

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Yes I know and understand this. It's still cheaper to buy a new barrel than shoot ammo up. Like I said before I would rather just get it over with. I would rather save the bullets for the ai loads.

barrel - .20 a round (approximately)
ammo - .42 a round (sierra mk 4831sc)

This does not mean that I won't use bullets or that I am against using bullets to fireform! I am simply stating that for getting many pieces fireformed quickly and cheaply the cream of wheat method works for me! It should not be a shock to anyone because it is a widely used method.:boom:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scope eye

"I had fully intended to fire form brass by just firing factory loaded cartridges in the AI chamber. Is that wrong?"
Not wrong at all Gary, that's exactly what I do, lets say you want 100 prepped cases, why wouldn't you use those 100 shots to better yourself, try stuff and really get to know the dynamics of your rig, let alone they enjoyment and getting that much better a shooter, prepping brass any other way is a chore. you can never have to much trigger time, no exceptions.

Tanks Dean

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You still pull the trigger with the cow method! :yield:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GaryB

From Shilen
Products::Rifle Barrels::Chambers

Drawing upon 35 years of close involvement in the demanding sport of bench rest competition, we possess a unique understanding of the importance of a carefully aligned, precise chamber. Our chambers are painstakingly cut to a singular standard of machining excellence, because without an absolutely true chamber, no rifle will shoot to its full potential. Dimensional accuracy is also critical in every other step in the barrel-fitting process. Everything must be just right.
We are chambering and fitting Shilen barrels for the following cartridges. Please note that the dimensions in parentheses indicate special neck diameters. These are either "tight necks", which require turning case necks, or "minimum necks", which may or may not require neck-turning. If you have questions, please contact us for recommendations.

The neck on the Shilen barrel(223AI) is .252 and my Speer reloading manual shows the standard 223 brass is .253 when loaded. Maybe I'm making to much of this, but that says to me that it won't work. Case necks need to be turned.




I had fully intended to fire form brass by just firing factory loaded cartridges in the AI chamber. Is that wrong?

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Yeah. I didn't intend for your thread to turn into a debate on fireforming. Using factory ammo would be the prefered method if you have the bucks. You can start shooting right away. Any way you do it - it's not a big deal to fireform brass.

I doubt you would have to turn the necks with a shilen barrel or criterion. You might ask Jim if he knows for sure or contact the barrel makers directly.

Sorry redman I did not want to come across like that, The keyboard will never replace an actual conversation, OK everyone back in the sandbox.LOL

Tanks Dean

No worries Dean. I've read some of your insights on other posts and you are always right on in your arguments.

It's all relative I guess.

Hey, I don't mind a little debate as long as everyone walks away with a smile on their face.

I have a bunch of cheap factory ammo(Wolf I believe) that has been setting around a long time and needs a new cause. I thought if I could just shoot that to fire form cases I could sort by weight what I needed to reload. And, having a 22-250 I already have lots of bullets and powder. Lots of small rifle primers too.

Gary

Help me decide?

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Originally Posted by redman

No worries Dean. I've read some of your insights on other posts and you are always right on in your arguments.

It's all relative I guess.

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I really wish my lovely wife was member of this forum and could read that. LOL

Tanks Dean

Redman if you don't have the money to fireform with bullets how the hell are you gonna reload them after fireforming? Not a legitimate argument to use the money savings.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

Help me decide?

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¿Que?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GaryB

I would like to do my first Savage build, but have some questions.

The rifle I have now is an M11GL in 243 Win. with sporter contour barrel and blind mag with a 4.275" screw spacing and stagger feed.

The rifle will be used primarily for bench work and hopefully an occasional trip out west for prairie dogs.

I'm pretty sure I want to go with the 223, but can't decide if the 223AI would be better or not. Any opinions on cartridge choice would be greatly appreciated. Is the 223AI any less accurate than the standard 223?

For the barrel I have decided to go with a Shilen in a 24" CM Varmint contour. If anyone has any other suggestions for something better/cheaper I'm always open.

I have looked at several stocks, but being a left handed rifle I'm somewhat limited in my choices. The one I'm leaning toward is the Choate Ultimate Sniper.

One last question I have is, will replacing the recoil lug with a match lug gain any noticeable accuracy or is that unnecessary?

Thanks for the help in advance and you have a great site here!
Gary

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Personally for me, I would just start off with a 223 and if you want to AI it do that later but thats me.
There are some benefits to AI but in 223 only case stretch.
If very serious target only then you will be doing a ton of brass prep anyway so fire forming may not be such a big deal.

The Sniper stock is a very heavy stock and basically a slightly reconfigured Ultimate Varmint stock.
Personally I would prefer a Choate tactical stock with the adjustable cheek rest and shoulder pad - expensive.

Midway shows the left hand 223 bolt heads in stock in mid March.

Yes machined recoil lug now.

This is what I would do....

Of course change the barrel, bolt head and magazine plus......
Machined recoil lug, SSS trigger, choate V block stock or bedded B+C medalist stock, Farrel base plate or EGW if on a budget, Top rings of some sort
and a top top scope.

I would probably build a 7 twist personally unless I was going to shoot super light bullets like 35-40 gr.
Reason for 7 twist for me would be 90 gr bergers and the 70 gr barnes TTSX.
I have never shot an 8 twist and not sure if it would shoot either super tight in 223.
I know the 90 gr berger takes a 7 twist, but no huge advantage in 223 or an 80 gr bullet so....

My 2 tightest shooting rifles have been.....

6mmBR, as above, Shilen midway barrel riding in a Choate ultimate varmint stock with a nightforce 12-42x scope. Shot 3/4" at 300 yards.

223 7 twist factory barrel Savage moded as above riding in a bedded Medalist stock with a Nikon 6-18x scope I think.
It took a long time before I got it to really dial in like 200 shots, but finally got it shooting 1/4-3/8 groups, but I could only do that with 2 bullets. 52 gr amaxes and 90 gr berger. Everything else shot about 1/2". Never could find a combo that shot like those two. All of those were with CCI BR primers and lapua brass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tammons

Personally for me, I would just start off with a 223 and if you want to AI it do that later but thats me.
There are some benefits to AI but in 223 only case stretch.
If very serious target only then you will be doing a ton of brass prep anyway so fire forming may not be such a big deal.

The Sniper stock is a very heavy stock and basically a slightly reconfigured Ultimate Varmint stock.
Personally I would prefer a Choate tactical stock with the adjustable cheek rest and shoulder pad - expensive.

Midway shows the left hand 223 bolt heads in stock in mid March.

Yes machined recoil lug now.

This is what I would do....

Of course change the barrel, bolt head and magazine plus......
Machined recoil lug, SSS trigger, choate V block stock or bedded B+C medalist stock, Farrel base plate or EGW if on a budget, Top rings of some sort
and a top top scope.

I would probably build a 7 twist personally unless I was going to shoot super light bullets like 35-40 gr.
Reason for 7 twist for me would be 90 gr bergers and the 70 gr barnes TTSX.
I have never shot an 8 twist and not sure if it would shoot either super tight in 223.
I know the 90 gr berger takes a 7 twist, but no huge advantage in 223 or an 80 gr bullet so....

My 2 tightest shooting rifles have been.....

6mmBR, as above, Shilen midway barrel riding in a Choate ultimate varmint stock with a nightforce 12-42x scope. Shot 3/4" at 300 yards.

223 7 twist factory barrel Savage moded as above riding in a bedded Medalist stock with a Nikon 6-18x scope I think.
It took a long time before I got it to really dial in like 200 shots, but finally got it shooting 1/4-3/8 groups, but I could only do that with 2 bullets. 52 gr amaxes and 90 gr berger. Everything else shot about 1/2". Never could find a combo that shot like those two. All of those were with CCI BR primers and lapua brass.

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Yea, I was kind of up in the air on the 223/223AI thing. Case life was my main reason for going with the AI version, but brass should be readily available again in the near future.

I just ordered this stock...
http://www.tacticalworks.com/Savage-...by-Choate.html
Maybe not the best, but it does have the V-shaped aluminum bedding block and is fairly heavy. I'll give it a try and if it does not work out replace it with something better down the road.

I really wanted the Shilen barrel, but Criterion is a branch of Krieger and I can't imagine them producing a bad barrel. Either way I only had about $700.00 to play with right now and the barrel from Shilen was about $390.00 shipped. I want to contact NSS and see if their prices are any better. Maybe even order the bolt head and recoil lug from them also.

Thanks for all the info. It is greatly appreciated!
Gary

My 223AI is a 22", 1:7 Criterion...

24.4gr Varget below an 80gr Amax in a virgin 223 case gives 2735fps and half MOA accuracy; in fireformed cases I see 2890fps with 26.2gr Varget and testing with 8208XBR looks like 40fps more velocity and even better accuracy.

I use a Lee Collett die and CCI-450s.

It also hammers deer, I've found...

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Originally Posted by GaryB

Yea, I was kind of up in the air on the 223/223AI thing. Case life was my main reason for going with the AI version, but brass should be readily available again in the near future.

I just ordered this stock...
http://www.tacticalworks.com/Savage-...by-Choate.html
Maybe not the best, but it does have the V-shaped aluminum bedding block and is fairly heavy. I'll give it a try and if it does not work out replace it with something better down the road.

I really wanted the Shilen barrel, but Criterion is a branch of Krieger and I can't imagine them producing a bad barrel. Either way I only had about $700.00 to play with right now and the barrel from Shilen was about $390.00 shipped. I want to contact NSS and see if their prices are any better. Maybe even order the bolt head and recoil lug from them also.

Thanks for all the info. It is greatly appreciated!
Gary

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The stock I would like is the adjustable one, but basically the same as yours.
They are good stocks, and just the testament of shooting a 3/4" group at 300 yards with a choate stock with no work on it or the action says a lot.
I did not even torque the bolts.

I cant imagine a Shilen barrel being any better than a criterion. Prices sure have gone up though.
Last Shelin I bought was like $280 from midway.

I would not worry about they availability of 223 brass 223 ammo yes but 223 brass, there has to be literally a billion pieces available, just go on any gun forum and someone has 223 brass for sale, and not by the hundreds by the thousands, so let not that be a deterrent,

Tanks Dean

+1 you can find 223/5.56 brass on arfcom. More expensive for now until thing settle down.

Scratching your back with a claw hammer works too but it ain't no fun and your glad when it's over.:cool:

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Originally Posted by kslefty

Redman if you don't have the money to fireform with bullets how the hell are you gonna reload them after fireforming? Not a legitimate argument to use the money savings.

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Gee what logic. You are absolutely right! I mean why didn't I think of that before? If I can't afford 2 boxes of bullets how the hell could I ever afford 1?

:frusty:

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Originally Posted by wbm

Scratching your back with a claw hammer works too but it ain't no fun and your glad when it's over.:cool:

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As a carpenter of 18 yrs I can tell you I actually do this quite often (as needed anyway) and I thoroughly enjoy it.

I'll toss in my two cents here just for fun....

#1. I also scratch my back with a claw hammer quite often. The trick is to not dig too far into the skin. This can be quite painful and the blood will make your hammer rust, nobody wants a rusty hammer.

#2. I also fireform my brass (22 K-Hornet) without using actual bullets. I understand the argument the other way, and everyone has their preference so let me toss another tidbit or two into the conversation. In most of the country right now there is a component shortage and it's not so much a matter of the extra few cents to fireform as much as the extra bullets that are getting hard to find. Also, I haven't had need to fireform any bullets lately, but when I was forming a few hundred at a time I still did it via the cream of wheat (COW) method. Another benefit to COW method is that I can fireform in my garage without going outside into the cold, windy WY winter weather (I do most of these chores during the winter to pass the time). If you have to travel to a shooting range this benefit is even greater.

To me the benefit of the AI cases were not because you should fireform with real bullets, but rather because if you ran into a situation where you had no ammo you could use "standard" ammo as a substitute if needed. Also, the case life benefit is probably the largest plus to the improved chamber in my opinion. This is even more true with tapered rounds like the hornet, 30-30 and others....

So there you have one more opinion tossed into the mix.

George

Well, I just got off the phone with Jim at NSS and I will soon be the proud owner of a Criterion barrel in 223 AI, stainless 26". And, with the money I saved ordering the barrel thru him, I picked up a stainless precision recoil lug and barrel nut! Jim was great to work with and a wealth of knowledge. Thanks Jim!

Now all I need to find is the 223 bolt head and I'm good to go.

Thank you everyone for the great help!

What twist is that 223AI tube?

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Originally Posted by BoilerUP

What twist is that 223AI tube?

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1in9 twist.

I received my Choate stock today and as you can see by this really poor picture, the inlet in the trigger area is considerably shorter than the original stock and the Timney trigger I have installed will not fit. Other than that it looks and feels fantastic! Time to warm up the old Dremel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...psb956725a.jpg

I am stoked about this build!

That is pretty typical of every build I have done, IE Always have to remove material for an aftermarket trigger.

FYI, now you got me started looking for a new barrel - LOL.

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Originally Posted by tammons

FYI, now you got me started looking for a new barrel - LOL.

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It's a contagion I tell you !!!

Well the stock is mended and the bolt head came in and is installed. Like he says on "Duck Dynasty"; I am Happy, Happy, Happy.

I have one question about the ejector. Can I just leave it out? Tried to turn it around but it protruded above the bolt face and left the cartridge sitting crooked.

I left the ejector out on my 17 fireball build. The case just hangs on the extractor when I open the bolt.

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Originally Posted by GaryB

It's a contagion I tell you !!!

Well the stock is mended and the bolt head came in and is installed. Like he says on "Duck Dynasty"; I am Happy, Happy, Happy.

I have one question about the ejector. Can I just leave it out? Tried to turn it around but it protruded above the bolt face and left the cartridge sitting crooked.

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Its pretty typical to remove the ejector in target guns.

Typical Spring Ejector ?? Not following the part about turning it around.

There is a very thin dowel/pin pin that hold the ejector in the bolt. What I do is pull the bolt, put an empty cartridge
in the end of the bolt and Compress the ejector and drive the pin out with a small punch and dont let anything fly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tammons

Its pretty typical to remove the ejector in target guns.

1)Typical Spring Ejector ?? Not following the part about turning it around.

2)There is a very thin dowel/pin pin that hold the ejector in the bolt. What I do is pull the bolt, put an empty cartridge
in the end of the bolt and Compress the ejector and drive the pin out with a small punch and dont let anything fly.

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1) I read somewhere that someone(pretty informed ain't I) turned the ejector around just to fill the hole, but it didn't fit flush.

2) I did exactly that. Used a spent cartridge to hold the ejector down and drove out the pin. It's out right now and I guess I'll leave it out.

Thanks
Gary

Maybe they just left the spring behind the ejector out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GaryB

1) I read somewhere that someone(pretty informed ain't I) turned the ejector around just to fill the hole, but it didn't fit flush.

2) I did exactly that. Used a spent cartridge to hold the ejector down and drove out the pin. It's out right now and I guess I'll leave it out.

Thanks
Gary

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Okay, got it.

I never tried that, but someone here suggested that I just fill it with JB Weld.
I tried it and it broke out, but I dont think the hole was super clean and I dont think I got it all the way to the bottom.

I ended up just leaving it out.

The right way to fill the hole would be to drive a few thou oversized pin in the hole and mill off the end, but its probably not worth the effort.

If the hole is still there you can still read brass flow.

Savage 22-250:
Maybe they just left the spring behind the ejector out.

Or clipped off some of the coils. I could file off the ejector and put it back in, but that seems like a lot of work.

It's all back together now so I think I'll leave it that way and see how it goes. I should be able to tell right away if pressures are to high.

Well you could get another ejector and mill off the top so its even with the top of the bolt face, but probably not worth the effort.

When I was shooting 6BR and 6.5 x47 lapua I just ran them with no ejector.

Setting up a 260AI and will probably do the same.