ok guys, help me vent....

i sold my remmy 300rum on gunbroker a while back, all was well till today. i get this phone call from the new owner all bent out of shape because the 200gr bullet in a 10 twist is hitting the target sideways.

he was quite verbal and arguementive, threatening all kinds of dumb stuff, but i finally lost it and hung up on him when he informed me that this all was happening at 25yds.

unforunately, i still have to deal with this individual, so give me your opinion on the impacting issue, i want to make sure i am not missing anything, and any other comments you might have as well.

Well, I guess you know how Fred Moreo feels now. I'm no expert, but I wonder if a 200 gr out of a 300 RUM IS still somewhat sideways at 25 yards.

Um...why is he bothering at 25 yards?

What's the twist of the RUM barrel?

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Originally Posted by hershey

10 twist .

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If that guy has any of whatever he's smoking for sale, I'm in.

uj

ok guys this story gets even better, he sent me his load data. the first two rounds fired were factory ammo done at the smith to test functionality. the 3rd round fired down the barrel was 7 grains above published max for the powder manufacurer, and 5.5 grains for the bullet manufacturer, fired by him. this is on a custom cut tight chamber w/ some freebore on a 28" tube, hell of a way to break in a new barrel. i politely told him to enjoy HIS new gun, and he might want to check his lugs and bolt before he fired it again.

Nice. Good to get the info from the loads he was using.

It's very simple to shoot a rifle- but you do need to be SMARTER then what your working with. :D

In all fairness to him 7 grains is what 6-10% over max, would you be sweating 1 or 2 grains over max in a .223? Just making the point that the 7 gr. sounds a lot worse than it probably is.

7 grains over max is kinda one drink over the limit.....it may not kill you, but it ain't gonna do you no good either.

uj

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kslefty

In all fairness to him 7 grains is what 6-10% over max, would you be sweating 1 or 2 grains over max in a .223? Just making the point that the 7 gr. sounds a lot worse than it probably is.

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i agree w/ your point, but for the very first round to be shot out of a barrel for load work ups and break in? he had no idea what it would build for pressures or anything. my ft/r will not shoot max published loads, it blows the web out bad enough it won't go back in the shell plate. i agree that i would of probably started at near max and probably bumped 2 gr at a time till i got a ways over posted max or pressure signs or whatever, but thats pretty brave, but the point to this is he chose to complain and create a big stink before backing the load down and trying something w/ in the spec. the free bore was signigant too, set up is for the big heavy long skinny bullets and he didn't even load to sammi spec on length, so probably a compressed load as it was an extruded powder.

Seeing your post here tells me you want to do the right thing. IMO, just as soon as he sent even one round downrange that was loaded over book max, his and my dealings would be done. I don't sell anything thats guaranteed idiot proof, and you can't either.

oh he pretty much got my point, i told him if he could get either nosler or hodgdon to come to his defense then i'd consider communicating further, but we all know what they would say and so does he. he knows he shot himself in the foot and it is his problem now. my closing comments on our last correspondance was to get a reloading book and start at page one and start reading. i actually think he is somewhat skilled and competent in some things based on his knowledge, but i think its aweful stupid to load the very first round ever fire from a new barrel above max, and i definately got my point across.

The guy was never going to be happy no matter what you would have done.

I see them all the time around here. People do the dumbest things then try to blame everyone else for their idiotic ways.

Dolomite

Shooting a 300 at 25 yards= strike one
Going over book with the first break in shots=Strike two
Telling you he did this=Strike three
Name the fool so we can avoid dealing with him!!!!

I'll leave this up to remind me not to be so quick to judge :-[

I'm not getting why everyone is so against shooting at 25 yards. Is the 300 unlike any other gun in that it keyholes at 25 yds but will shoot bug holes at 100 and beyond? I often do initial sight-in at 25 yds before moving out to 100. I've never seen keyholing from any gun at any distance unless I was using the wrong bullet.

I had a custom chambered .300 RUM that was pressure sensitive to a little to much powder, but had a sweetspot that yielded good velocity and accuracy. But in all fairness it was never shot at 25 yards.

In order to get a real keyhole, didn't he either have to have either (a) some form of failure in the normal spinning motion of the bullet, or (b) some damage to the projectile itself?

I don't get how to get (a) unless there is damage to the barrel / rifling

but (b) might be possible if he also crimped in some odd way and then with the overpressure had destruction of the bullet as it freed itself from the case in a violent fashion --

Personally, I have accidentally overloaded three rounds in my life (too heavy a bullet) on a .223 and that was probably only by a grain or so, and I would never even think of doing that stupid a move again. I was a newbie and didn't recognize the primer damage immmediately when the little curl of smoke came out of the action, but after the third one, I caught on and pulled all those rounds apart. And if I remember right, that was actually INSIDE the pubished data, but I had the bullet seated out closer to the lands than the published, so I got higher pressures..... there are a zillion ways to foul this up and you are right to politely but firmly suggest he take responsibility for grossly and intententionallky overloading the cartridge.

Now it would be wise for him to carefully inspect the bore, throat, and bolt. If no signs of damage, he might try some factory loads!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ctrout

I often do initial sight-in at 25 yds before moving out to 100.

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Me too.

I do not know the full story on the situation, but if it was me selling the rifle and I had offered any kind of warranty or guaranty of functionality or fitness, the buyer's firing of an load at 7 grains over published data would have instantly voided any such promise. And, any further communication from the buyer would be ignored, with a final note saying he was on his own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ctrout

I often do initial sight-in at 25 yds before moving out to 100.

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Me too.

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i think my sight in bench is at 40 yds, but it is just the accumulation of ignorance w/ this situation that amazes me. we all know most bullets fall asleep at some point in flight, but most do not do so by 25yds. another small laugh is he told me he needed at least 3200fps out of his 200gr bullets to do what he wanted it to do.

Will a 338 Lapua even do that?

Yes.

If I can tack on a dumb question (sorry hershey) -- what part of the case are we talking about when we say expanded web (early pressure signs)? I've had my assumptions but never been quite sure...

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Originally Posted by lwink

If I can tack on a dumb question (sorry hershey) -- what part of the case are we talking about when we say expanded web (early pressure signs)? I've had my assumptions but never been quite sure...

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what i mean by it is the primer area bulges or crowns so bad that it will no longer slide into the shell plate on the press because it makes contact w/ the bottom of the shell plate to the point that the rim won't fit the grooves.

Hershey, have you heard from the buyer lately? I read on another forum that he figured out what the problem was.

I hope you two patched things up.

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Originally Posted by geargrinder

Hershey, have you heard from the buyer lately? I read on another forum that he figured out what the problem was.

I hope you two patched things up.

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no, have not heard from him, point me in the right direction, i'd like to see what spin he put on his story...

Sending you a pm.

For me, I never load over max on what different books say. I've got access to books published from 1978 to current. When working up a load, I look up about 5 different loads from different books. Some books may say for example that 45g of varget pushing a 155gr bullet is fine, others say thats the maximum, still other say thats over the max.

Still though, for me, you start at the low end of the powder and work your way till you get the tightest group. i never start with the max, nor load to the max.

Hearing the other side of the story, I'm pretty sure the loads were nowhere near max. :)

From what I understand, the gun will be fine very soon.

I hope that hershey and the buyer are now satisfied.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geargrinder

Hearing the other side of the story, I'm pretty sure the loads were nowhere near max. :)

From what I understand, the gun will be fine very soon.

I hope that hershey and the buyer are now satisfied.

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well i never would of connected all the dots on this one, no matter how hard i would of tried, the long and the short, i was wrong and had no clue i was wrong, its a good read, the blame is on the smith actually. it sure makes him look like an idiot, but in all fairness, he is very good, and has close to a 1 year backlog on his work because people are willing to wait than go elsewhere.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...58/index3.html

I am the buyer of the rifle and I feel like there is only one side of the story that has been told. I am not a mind reader and don't know hershey and it is clear now that he didn't intentionally sell me a lemon but here is my perspective.

Just for clarity, here is what the rifle is:
A .338 barrel blank that was chambered with a 300 Ultramag reamer and has a muzzle brake with a 30 cal opening in it.

First off, I never said that the load I used was the first shot through the barrel, merely what I used to try to sight in. Could it be a guy worked up a load? ??? As I told hershey in an email, bullet was no where near the rifling (now I know why),bolt lift was easy, primers were round and no extractor marks on the case head of the Remington brass. Doesn't sound like dangerously high pressure to me.

Second, here is the auction description to help establish what I was thinking when I called him on the phone. Italics added by me.
i started this build and just lost interest in it. it is a left handed remington action, blind magwell, w/ a 1-10 twist #7 shilen select match barrel, the round count is 2, done by the gunsmith. no optics or bipod included. threaded muzzle brake, barrel is 28" w/ a 2" brake for an overall of 30". fitted in a super sniper stock. ohio residents can do a ftf transfer w/ proper i.d. it is ready to be shot, mount your optics and have at it, rings and bases stay w/ rifle, i have both 30mm and 1" rings. the gunsmith that performed the work is a dealer listed on this sight and i will provide that info so you can contact him for any particulars once you are a sucessful bidder. i could be interested in barrel nut bolt rifles and military rifles towards trades. but got a half finished f/tr rifle and would like to shoot it before snow flies, that is my motivator for selling it. discrete paypal w/ the 3.5% is fine or 7% if you use a credit card and paypal. cash is king, money orders etc. is fine. this will probably cost about $50 to get out to the west coast, i am not looking to get rich shipping, just cover the cost.

After the auction and prior to knowing there was a problem with the rifle I had requested the name of the gunsmith at least twice with no response other than "I'll have to look up the receipt". He also said $40 should cover the shipping and when I got the box the label was $21 or $22. I emailed him requesting the name of the gunsmith as he said he would and asking for $15 refund on shipping since he said he would charge actual cost. This is his response in it's entirety:"ok, it was 17 miles round trip to the post office, plus my time, plus the box, tape etc... i will figure the bill for the balance due...."

About a week later I try to sight in the rifle and discover that the bullets are literally going in the target sideways. Put yourself in my shoes. The seller said he would give the name of the gunsmith. He hadn't. He said he would charge actual shipping and when I requested a refund of the overage I got a sarcastic response. Wouldn't you be seeing red thinking that you were just ripped off when you shot it?

At the beginning of our phone conversation he did say to put it back in the box and write return to sender on it. I told him I was not comfortable with that and wanted to go through an FFL on his end. He didn't want to pay a transfer fee. Neither did I since I was already out $40 in shipping, would have to pay again to ship up there and at that point didn't know if I would even get my money if I did send the rifle based on the actions of the seller up to this point. He finally gave a name and zip code for the gunsmith in an email later that day but the whole thing continued it's downward spiral after that. I did get loud on the phone but the only threat I made was to turn him in to his state attorney general for fraud, which I suspected at that point. It is clear now that was not Hershey's intent and that he hadn't shot the rifle.

That is my side of the story. I think I'm just lucky that the muzzle brake didn't blow to pieces and injure me. If hershey reads this, he can email me to get this situation resolved. The rifle has been mailed up to the gunsmith with instructions to call me when he figures out what happened and before any work is done. It will most likely be set back and rechambered to 338 Ultramag. I didn't want a 338 Ultramag, I wanted a 300 Ultramag. When the gunsmith checks it out, I'm sure he will find that the action is just fine. Hershey did say over on longrangehunting.com yesterday evening to let him know if I want to "bail" on the rifle which at this point I do. Not because I fear it is damaged but I just want to forget that this whole mess happened.
Sorry for the lengthy post, everyone. Please feel free to critique and/or criticize my response, these are just the facts.

Thanks,

Sam

quote " Could it be a guy worked up a load? " Just how did you do that? If the smith is that good and in demand I would expect him to put a NEW barrel on if it was his fault. I wouldnt want a barrel that had .30 cal bullets skipped down a .338 cal bore. He should have caught it somewhere in set up or inspection.

If hershey contracted for a 300 and got a 338, sounds like both of you got screwed by this gunsmith.

groupshooter,
Perhaps my wording was vague. My method is working up powder charge while looking for pressure signs on the case and primer, seems to work well. Stiff bolt lift is a definite sign of excess pressure but the brass and primer will tell you before that unless you are using Lapua or military brass. As I stated before, there was no stiff bolt lift, no flattened primers and no extractor marks on the case head. I usually chronograph also but I hadn't had the chance to set up the chrono on this one yet. It's a good thing, too as I'd most likely had a chronograph blown to bits by the tumbling bullet. With the barrel being a larger diameter, the load probably didn't even generate as much pressure as a mild factory load. I'm not wanting to start a debate, I just want to get my money back and forget the entire episode.

That is a good point on the barrel. If hershey wants to email me and have a civil discussion, maybe we can get this resolved.

wow, thinking said smith sure set up what turned into a big mess with everyone that shot the gun getting very lucky.

Uh----kslefty you WOULDN'T sweat 6-10% over max? I think you just made hershey's point.

Not going to advocate doing it but in short no , not at all. I fully understand the ramifications but in 13 guns I load for found PUBLISHED loads to be very anemic for the most part. Check out reloadbench or something similar you will be shocked.

well, life ain't perfect this is proof of it.

couple minor discrepansies w/ the story. the delay w/ the gunsmith info was more out of respect for the smith, he did not set up at the last show and when i inquired why, was told he was having back surgery, i wanted to call him first, and never actually talked to him, but got his brother in law. the reciept issue was he asked me what worked was performed, and i told him i would have to find the reciept for the detailed list. at this point i have to take him at his word on work ups, but never heard that story until you all did. irregardless, there would not have been any pressure signs w/ that barrel. somewhere i have those first two fired cases, if i can find them, i can verify everything (but believe him irregardless), and i will be paying a visit to the smith in person to see what he does to make it right. i think what would be fair is eat the barrel and either set up another one for him, or give him the money to have someone do it. irregardless, i think the smith should eat the barrel expense.

you know how some guns have been thorns from day one?, this is one of them, my wife never meddles in my gun fund, but on this particular rifle she got on my case and put a bad taste in my mouth on day one of this rifle. all the delays and waits and other crap that happened w/ it, i should of bailed long ago. i ordered the barrel as a 30" w/ a 2" brake for an overall of 32" and got 28" and 30" overall. i could of/should of bailed right then, but like a nidgit i didn't.

i also almost sent the barrel to sinman for small shank threads, assuming he would of caught the discrepancy, i'd have a 338 edge right now....

hershey and I have communicated via email and he has talked to the gunsmith. hershey has offered to facilitate getting the gunsmith to make it right for me if need be. At this point I would consider that to be a 300 Ultramag barrel or some sort of monetary settlement from the smith. That is probably the best way it could turn out.

I think the moral here is that there are always two sides to the story, and judgements made based on incomplete information can often be wrong (both sides in this case) :P. I misjudged hershey's intentions and he misjudged my understanding of what was going on with the rifle. I also think a few people who posted here made the same mistake but I probably would have thought the same thing presented with only part of the info, no offense taken.

Glad to see this things resolved with no major fallout. Glad you guys were both mostly civil about it and hopefully the gunsmith will be as well.

sambo3006, I was the 9th poster on this topic and I would like to apologize for my comment. I'm sorry I spouted off without knowing the whole story. It sure is something how things can happen, I hope everything works out for you.

If the gunsmith does not do right by you and hershey, I would post his name and address in every forum I could find, with appropriate negative comments. If he does make it right to everyone's satisfaction, I would not hesitate to recommend him as someone who stands behind his work.