What's the worse thing that can happen if the bullet is touching the lands? What's the reason to just keep the bullet just off the lands?
Thanks again, Dan
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What's the worse thing that can happen if the bullet is touching the lands? What's the reason to just keep the bullet just off the lands?
Thanks again, Dan
nothing will happen, some handloads are crushed into the lands
The issue around "just touching" the lands is that there are manufacturing tolerances in bullet dimensions. Sometimes the distribution of dimensions is a typical bell shaped curve and sometimes its a bimodal distribution (like a two humped camel). If you are shooting bullets that have a +/- 3 thousandths variation, and you set your seating dies to touch the lands "on average", then some of the bullets will be "jammed" by 3 thousandths and some of them will be "jumped" by 3 thousandths. The effect of this will show up on target.
IMO, you either need to have them jammed or jumped, in all cases well in excess of the bullet's natural manufacturing tolerances.
Elkbane
The other danger would be, say you have worked up a good load that is off the lands and that load is near max pressure for that rifle and you seat the bullet out more to touch the lands then it could all the sudden be too much pressure for the rifle.
I always like to see how a load shoots jammed in the lands, so I will work up the load starting with the bullet jammed, when I settle on the optimal charge weight, I can safely move bullet away from the lands to fine tune it.
Regards,
Dan
Well,I say your full of crap....Just yesterday I went to the range with my 22-250Quote:
Originally Posted by keeki
55 grain v max jamed into the rifleing..35 grain of H 4895 Shot 3 at 250 yards.
Bolt opened a little hard..Group fantastic..3/4 inch..No 4 shot blew the primer..
No 5 shot Case stuck in chamber..Had to come home and run a cleaning rod
in to remove case..Blew the ejector apart...Some don't tell him nothing will happen..
This was not a max. load neither according to the Hodgon manual...I can still shoot
the rifle,but the shells do not eject on their own.New spring and plunger on order..John
you can pop primers, split necks, stick cases and bust ejectors with the bullet .200" off the lands. Fact is that what happened to you had nothing to do with the bullet being crushed into the lands, it had everything to do with too much pressure. Sure the closer you get to the lands the higher the pressure is gonna be, so you gotta start low and work it up
Dang benfranklin - kind of harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by benfranklin
Well if you didn't work the load up jammed in to the lands the problem is YOU! You can work a good load up jammed into the lands and nothing will happen. You will get to max sooner than if it was off the lands is all.
If you just pulled that load out of your #$% and tried it without working it up from the start jammed into the lands (not loading to the COAL the manual said) you asked for trouble.
That load is over max in my manuals BTW.
Sounds like you need to learn a bit before calling someone out.
told me something when he said the first 3 were sticky bolt, the 4th popped a primer and he still shot number 5 ???
well You can bash me all you want..This load was worked up slow..A sticky bolt
does not mean high pressures..It could be from using fireformed case as well..
I have shots hundreds of loads with fire formed cases and had a thight bolt lift..
Any tighter than normal chamber will do the same thing..But I now for a fact if
you have a bullet into the lands,your gonna have a higher pressure reading..
After 40 some years of loading and match shooting this is the first primer I have
ever had blow like that..And if you know anything thing about some powder they
DO get hotter in warmer conditions..So don't be telling people nothing will happen.
tell me what it told ya? Thats why some rifle have some free bore in them to let out thye pressure..You should have know that... ??? ??? ???Quote:
Originally Posted by keeki
whatever dude. Pressure blows primers not bullets. If your gonna deviate from the loading manual when it comes to oal, you cant go back and use the loading manual for everything else. So please dont throw that "this was not max load according to hodgdon manual" crap out there because it also wasnt correct oal according to hodgdon manual
shouldve never shot number 5 if number 4 popped a primer
The only time I have ever had sticky bolt lift from a fire formed case was when it was over length leading to high pressure.
I have several rifles I neck size for and load em long. I let the bolt fully seat the bullet jammed into the lands. It leads to very consistent seating depth and very good accuracy for me.
You know that a lot of this also depend upon the caliber in question. Some overbore and/or small case capacity cartridges are very sensitive to minor changes. The .223 rem and 22/250 fall into this category. The 220 Swift is really sensitive!! Larger bores are not so sensitive, like the 308 diameter bore. I've never been able to get enough powder in a 308 Win case to get a real high pressure problem. That is my experience.
Best regards,
Grit
I HAVE :oQuote:
I've never been able to get enough powder in a 308 Win case to get a real high pressure problem
I also agree with the above! Especially with the first three being sticky! Been there!Quote:
shouldve never shot number 5 if number 4 popped a primer
Just because you created an over pressure load does not mean that it was caused by the bullet being jammed. It is entirely on you. Jamming bullets is very standard practice. You must work up the load properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by benfranklin
All the data came from the Hodgon manual,except for the oal...35 grain is not max neither..
obviously its over max! Cant change one part of the recipe without changing the rest of it
i'll give you an example of a short throat raising pressures to the point of trouble. I developed a load for an AR15 23 grains of Data 220 and a 62 grain SS109, Winchester brass, Remington small rifle primer. Granted Data 220 is on the fast side for the 5.56/223. I fired this round over 500 times through my A2 match rifle, Kreiger match barrel, with no problems what so ever. Then I decided to try that load in another AR-15, an A3 flat top with a Kreiger varmint contour with a .223 chamber. First round blew the primer right out of the case tying the gun up. I could not find the primer right away because it was stuck to the bolt face. The metal around the firing pin dent flowed into the firing pin hole! At first I was kind of dumbfounded. What the F!! Then I realized that the only difference between the two uppers was that the A2 had the match chamber for single feeding the 80grain VDLs, very long throat, and the A3 had the .223 chamber which has a really short throat were the bullet is almost touching the rifling. In this case the short throat raised the pressure to a dangerous level, and the longer throat did not. Bullet seating depth can make a difference. So in my humble opinion all of you are right to a certain extent.
Best regards,
Grit
Thank you Grit John FWIW I tried that same load this morning 2 rounds is all with the bullet jamed into
the rifleing.First shot hole in Primer,second blown primer----Two shots with the bullet about ..099 off the lands...No sign of pressure at all....So tell me what caused it? John
Too much powder for a bullet touching the lands!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by benfranklin
Nobody is arguing that a jammed bullet will generally create higher pressures than a jumped bullet (certain exclusions apply). What folks are saying is that YOU have to account for it. Jeesh!
I think there is some confusion in this thread.
Ben Franklin, you are arguing that jammed bullets will CAUSE over pressures.
Everyone else is arguing that you MUST account for this in your reloading process.
The jammed bullet doesn't CAUSE the over pressure... using too much powder for a jammed bullet is the cause of the over pressure.
too much powder caused it. theres 6 major pieces of criteria involved in reloading a cartridge. 1. type of bullet. 2.type of powder. 3. volume of brass. 4. type of primer. 5. amount of powder. 6. OAL
If any of these 6 things are changed, the recipe also changes.
hodgdons book says 35.5gr of H4895 is max, if your 1. using 55grvmax. 2. Using H4895. 3. using Winchester brass. 4. using WLR primers. 5. 35.5gr of powder. 6. maximum OAL of 2.350".
If either of these are changed, so could your max charge of 35.5gr of H4895.
There is no explosive devises in a 55gr vmax bullet (I know this for I have loaded thousands of them). This being said, you can seat that bullet anywhere you want to and it will NOT pop a primer. However, if you put too much powder behind it, it will pop one. You changed your OAL, so you must also change your max charge. If you went to a different primer, you may also have to change your max charge. If you use different brass you may have to change your max charge. Neck tension alone will change your max charge.
But jamming that BULLET in the lands will NOT pop a primer
very interesting stuff...
Quote:
Originally Posted by daniel brothers
+1
Now thateveryone is finished bashing me,etc..
Al loads were done to prove a point..
You should never tell anyone NOTHING WILL HAPPEN...
It is like telling somebody the dog don't bite....All dogs will bite...
So please do not tell,things you do not know about....
So you all have a wonderful week end and be safe....John :P :P :P :P