ALMOST A GO GAUGE

I don't have headspace gages and have used fired f.l. sized cases to set headspace. Once the barrel is set so the bolt just closes on he fired f.l. sized case, I put a piece of scotch tape on the base of the case and try it in the gun-there should be resistance to bolt closing.
I'm a little goosey about using the fired f.l. sized case, and use several to make sure on the headspace.
Yesterday I filled a fired case with lead, melting to make sure the case was filled. he case was then a very tight or not fit. F.L. sized the lead filled case, it took a little force, and then tried the case. It fits in the gun with slight bolt resistance; and with a strip of scotch tape on the base it's a no-go or at least very heavy bolt resistance.
I have swaged lead into a case, many times, to slug the chamber. Pounding the lead with a rod and hammer. This would make a lead filled case an almost perfect fit in the chamber, and might be better than my new "almost a go gauge", but for now I'm happier than using an empty case as a gage. aybe overkill, but...
joe b.

Joe...

JUST BUY A HEAD SPACE GAUGE...a GO GAUGE and a roll of Scotch tape at a minimum, better yet buy a NO-GO gauge too...dont guess...

Think of it this way...would you let your child or grandchild pull the trigger on that gun? If not...why should you?

Spend the $$$...be safe...

Capt Beach

+++++1

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Originally Posted by CAPTBEACH

Joe...

JUST BUY A HEAD SPACE GAUGE...a GO GAUGE and a roll of Scotch tape at a minimum, better yet buy a NO-GO gauge too...dont guess...

Think of it this way...would you let your child or grandchild pull the trigger on that gun? If not...why should you?

Spend the $$$...be safe...

Capt Beach

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+++++++22222222222

You can rent a Go and No go guage as well!

Whay they said! I've heard others say they've used brass cases but they can give too much. Headspace gauges aren't very expensive and give good peace of mind.

The gauges were the least expensive part of my Savage build and I seated the barrel twice just to make sure I had it right. I wouldn't be even a little bit confident in my build if I hadn't used the proper tools for the job.

Also, when it comes to tools required for a Savage re-barrel, I'm guessing you can likely flip them here for not much less than you paid for them. I've considered it, but I'm going to hang on to them for my next build.

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Originally Posted by CAPTBEACH

Joe...

JUST BUY A HEAD SPACE GAUGE...a GO GAUGE and a roll of Scotch tape at a minimum, better yet buy a NO-GO gauge too...dont guess...

Think of it this way...would you let your child or grandchild pull the trigger on that gun? If not...why should you?

Spend the $$$...be safe...

Capt Beach

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++++3,4,5,6,7...

It amazes me that people are so willing to gamble on this. A Go- gauge, at minimum, should be considered a necessary expense with a new barrel, or a caliber that is new to you.

Are you measuring the headspace of the fired piece of brass with something like the RCBS precision mic, or a similar caliper mounted device? If not, there is no guarantee that the piece you are using is anywhere near the right size. But it was full-length resized, you say? How do you know that your die is set up correctly? Even if it is, if you feed it a piece of brass with short headspace , it will give you a piece of brass with short headspace, only now with a nicely sized neck and body diameter.

Even though it was once fired, it may not have fully expanded (length-wise in the shoulder). I know this from measuring many, many fired cases before and after full length sizing. And how do you know that the chamber of the rifle it was fired in, had correct headspace? Many rifles leave the factory with headspace set on the longish end of specs, to make sure it will chamber anything you feed it. I have an old Remington model 700 30-06 whose factory-set headspace is so long that once-fired factory loads already exhibit signs of incipient case head separation.

And new brass? That's even worse. Most new brass is way short. Full length resizing does nothing to correct this.

I realize that this all goes against what many will tell you here, and I'm all for saving a buck or two when you can. But this is not the place to do it.

Many headspace gauges cover a variety of calibers, so they are cost- efficient in that respect, too.

Bottom line: get a Go gauge AT MINIMUM. Better yet, go gauge and RCBS precision mic so you can check your fired and sized brass. You will learn a lot about headspace by doing this, and it will help you set up your dies better and make better ammo. Best case, get the go gauge, precision mic, and a no-go gauge. You can probably pick up all three for a total of about $100 bucks. Considering how much you probably already have invested in this hobby, that's a small price, and a damn good investment in my opinion.

I guess I have to disagree with most of you. I've swapped 20 or so barrels without a gauge. I don't care if the gauge fits or not.
I set my headspace to my die's whether their to spec's or not dosen't matter. My rifles are set up for my dies and that's all i'm
concerned with. And yes my grandkids shoot them all the time. Now that being said if you shoot factory ammo or plan on selling the rifle
by all means use a gauge. It may not be the proper way to do it but it works for me. Shapshooter once said "It's harder to get it wrong
than to get it right".
Now don't be to hard on me it's Christmas.

I for one, won't be hard on you, I just don't agree with you. Maybe you've never had a problem, and I sincerely hope you never do. More is the danger that someone new to the barrel nut Savage will read your endorsements of using brass, and not fully understanding what they're reading, or the implications, will try it, get it wrong, and have a KABOOM.

Not worth it at all in my book. I don't even remember what a Go gauge costs, like $25 or $30? That is dirt cheap life insurance in my book. I have bought a gauge each time I've swapped a barrel in a new cartridge. I have them for 204, 22-250/250 Sav, 223, 243/308, 257 Rob/7x57, and 6.5x284/284. If I do a cartridge that I don't have the gauge for, I wouldn't hesitate to just buy the new gauge.

I will gladly lend any one of these gauges to any paid forum member here, all I would ask is that you pay the return postage when you're done installing your barrel.

I truly, don't get it that this is something folks will go cheap on and try to save a buck.

One of life's great mysteries.

Slowpoke Slim for the most part I agree with what your saying. For someone new to barrel swapping or is going to use factory
ammo you don't have a lot of choice. Use a gauge. For myself I want my headspace tight for my dies. The only way I know to do that is
with brass sized with my dies.

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Originally Posted by thirty06

Slowpoke Slim for the most part I agree with what your saying. For someone new to barrel swapping or is going to use factory
ammo you don't have a lot of choice. Use a gauge. For myself I want my headspace tight for my dies. The only way I know to do that is
with brass sized with my dies.

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Why not set your barrel to a Go gauge, (minimum dimensions), then adjust your dies to match? I too hope no one ever has any bad experiences, but I will say that a gauge will help ensure that.

I've never tried it, but I would bet that using a max book charge in a chamber with well below minimum headspace would result in over pressure.

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

I've never tried it, but I would bet that using a max book charge in a chamber with well below minimum headspace would result in over pressure.

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Sure it could but that is why you never start with "max book charges" in ANY gun. Lots of things other than short headspace could result in that problem. Not saying I don't use gauges (I do and adjust my dies accordingly) but the idea that it would ever be safe to put a max charge in an untested rifle/chamber is way more dangerous than using fired FL sized brass!

Biggest problem with using fired, FL sized brass as your gauge is how soft/springy/easy to crush brass is.

I'll have to agree w/ the slowpokeslim way of thinking......... I've been guilty of offering advice to new bbl swappers who probably are not aware of all the ramifications of using F/L sized cases as HD SP gauges. :-[ Lets face it, there are too many "ifs" in this method for the novice. Particularly, the novices that don't have comparators or understand that all sizing dies are not created equal nor are the shell holders........ With only one exception, I've always used a go-gauge. If we don't know the knowledge level of a poster we can be doing a potentially dangerous dis-service. JMHO, Dale

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Originally Posted by Eric in NC

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

I've never tried it, but I would bet that using a max book charge in a chamber with well below minimum headspace would result in over pressure.

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Sure it could but that is why you never start with "max book charges" in ANY gun. Lots of things other than short headspace could result in that problem. Not saying I don't use gauges (I do and adjust my dies accordingly) but the idea that it would ever be safe to put a max charge in an untested rifle/chamber is way more dangerous than using fired FL sized brass!

Biggest problem with using fired, FL sized brass as your gauge is how soft/springy/easy to crush brass is.

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Agree completely and I am not suggesting this nor would I ever do it, but some people might, and I pointed it out because a short chamber could make what might be a mild over pressure situation into a dangerous over pressure situation.

A full length resizing die is designed to make a fired case at "LEAST" .002 shorter than the GO gauge, I have a Lyman die that will make a .223 case .006 shorter than minimum GO headspace. Using a resized cartridge case for a GO gauge can have adverse effects, one of which is "NOT" being able to push the shoulder back far enough to chamber "YOUR" fired rounds.

Buy and use a GO gauge to set your headspace and you will always have a zero baseline when using any cartridge headspace gauge to tell you "the short and long of it" ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/IMG_1243.jpg

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Originally Posted by thirty06

"It's harder to get it wrong
than to get it right".

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May be true, but it's still important to get it right, IMO.

How many of you guys have done it "wrong" and had a "kaboom" or even a case seperation?

I've done it both ways ... but the headspace guages definately give the home hobby barrel swapper a 'crisper' feel when the barrel touches. I find cases feel 'dead' when the barrel screws on and touches the case, so much so that when I had my 223Rem barrel rechambered to 22-204, I headspaced on a fired 204 case, but then took it to a gunsmith to re-check using the headspace guage. My settings were fine, but that 'dead' feel caused me to question my work.
Cheers...
Con

Had a HS problem w/ a barrel swap recently. Used a go-gauge & found fired cases matched the go-gauge H/S. But, W/ die set to S/H + 1/4 turn, F/L sized cases were .0015" longer & difficult to chamber. Chkd my shell holder & found it measured .246".... I could shorten the S/H or cut about .003" off bottom of die to get the amount of sizing flexibilty I needed. I decided to order three more S/H's from different Mfg's. here's what I got: S/H (A) .223", (B) .250" (C) .261" That's .038" difference in S/H's. ( industry standard is .250") If I didn't have a comparator & simply set my F/L die to the (A) S/H would the case have gone KABOOM from the massively short H/S? Maybe---maybe not. Without a doubt results could be head separation after a few firings or cratered primers or both, even if powder chgs had been worked up slowly. I really don't think setting HD SP w/ a F/L sized case is the best idea. If the above happened to me, it could happen to anyone. Rare circumstance? YEP! Could this happen to a novice BBL swapper w/ no go-gauge or comparator?.......................................

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Had a HS problem w/ a barrel swap recently. Used a go-gauge & found fired cases matched the go-gauge H/S. But, W/ die set to S/H + 1/4 turn, F/L sized cases were .0015" longer & difficult to chamber. Chkd my shell holder & found it measured .246".... I could shorten the S/H or cut about .003" off bottom of die to get the amount of sizing flexibilty I needed. I decided to order three more S/H's from different Mfg's. here's what I got: S/H (A) .223", (B) .250" (C) .261" That's .038" difference in S/H's. ( industry standard is .250") If I didn't have a comparator & simply set my F/L die to the (A) S/H would the case have gone KABOOM from the massively short H/S? Maybe---maybe not. Without a doubt results could be head separation after a few firings or cratered primers or both, even if powder chgs had been worked up slowly. I really don't think setting HD SP w/ a F/L sized case is the best idea. If the above happened to me, it could happen to anyone. Rare circumstance? YEP! Could this happen to a novice BBL swapper w/ no go-gauge or comparator?.......................................

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There's something wrong here. The notion that shell holder makers allow the important dimension to vary .038" is just not believable. GOTCHA, you're measuring the wrong dimension. The dimension that matters on a shell holder is from the top of the shell holder to the surface where the bottom of the case rests. The top of the shell holder is where the die stops, and the point where shoulder-headspace is measured from. I just measured 13 misc. shell holders and got .125" for each, as near as I can tell with the depth measurement part of a dial caliper. Thus, shoulder-headspace dies are made so that the headspace dimension OF THE DIE is .125" less than the nominal headspace dimension. Imagine a headspace dimension of 2.000". The die is made at 1.875". This plus the shell holder .125" = 2.000".
I set the die so that it is a solid stop on the top of the shell holder-no over-center snap thing is going on. The shell holder goes up and hits a dead stop.
Back to the lead-filled case as headspace gauge. The lead will and does keep the case from springing or feeling mushy. And, from changing headspace dimension. That's my point. If HS gauges are what you want to use, go right ahead. BUT, if you're a fired-f.l.sized-case HS setter maybe you'll like to try a lead filled case.
joe b.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

How many of you guys have done it "wrong" and had a "kaboom" or even a case seperation?

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I do it "wrong" all the time and have never had a case separation or any other problems. :P

But I've done this now for a while and no longer in the learning stages..... Besides...most of the cartridges I shoot don't have any gauges for headspacing. I would dare say that I probably have a couple of "one of a kind" chambers.

Stay safe and only tackle what you can handle.

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale

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Your drinking Jack while reloading. Thats Crazy! Makers Mark would be a much better choice.

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Originally Posted by gotcha

I'll have to agree w/ the slowpokeslim way of thinking......... I've been guilty of offering advice to new bbl swappers who probably are not aware of all the ramifications of using F/L sized cases as HD SP gauges. :-[ Lets face it, there are too many "ifs" in this method for the novice. Particularly, the novices that don't have comparators or understand that all sizing dies are not created equal nor are the shell holders........ With only one exception, I've always used a go-gauge. If we don't know the knowledge level of a poster we can be doing a potentially dangerous dis-service. JMHO, Dale

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+1!

If a builder is barreling to a caliber he's never had before, surely that job is limited to a GO gauge only as he doesn't have a fired/FL sized case to begin with?

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Originally Posted by gotcha

Joe, You're right about the HD SP measurements. That's what happens to my thinking when I don't take my A.D.D. medication & substitute Jack Daniels instead. ??? The lead filled case is a unique idea. It's the F/L sized part I don't understand. Maybe because I've never tried it, though I have HD SPed w/ a epoxy filled, fired case where I knew the doner chamber to be in spec. My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing? And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case? I've got more than one die that over sizes brass enough to noticeably reduce case volume. Not tryin' to be a PIA here just an honest question to someone w/ experience. Thanx, Dale

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Dale;
"My question is how do you adjust case HD SP on brass thats getting tight in the chamber after firing?" I FL size the cases. Even shooting LV cast bullet loads, I find that neck-sized brass gets tight = resistance to bolt closing, and must be FL sized now and then.

"And, how do you insure the die you're using is "in spec" & not under-sizing the case?" My first answer is that I believe that the chance of getting an out-of-spec RCBS or other big name sizing die is right around zero. My second answer is that when we use a fired FL sized case to set HS, we're doing so for THAT die and THAT barrel/chamber, other dies and chambers may not "go with" the original fired case.

I think this. A case fired in any gun is bigger than a new case, and has blown out ot just under that gun's chamber size. The fired case cannot be shorter after firing, in the HS dimension, unless the case had been forced into a short chamber. So the fired case HS dimension is at least minimum. When the case is FL sized, there should and must and will be resistance in the press means that the press/die is squeezing something down. Then the fired FL sized case HS dimension is at least minimum HS dimension. Set the barrel HS with this case and HS is at least minimum HS dimension.
This is all true, I think, as long as the die and chamber are within spec AND the case doesn't get squozen down during setting HS and the mechanic understands what he's doing and is careful and checks for bolt closing resistance when there's a piece or 2 of scotch tape on the case head.

I think.
joe b.

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Originally Posted by GaCop

If a builder is barreling to a caliber he's never had before, surely that job is limited to a GO gauge only as he doesn't have a fired/FL sized case to begin with?

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Not so. The builder needs a fired case. Where it comes from, within reason, doesn't matter. I use fired cases that someone else or some other gun fired. In the case where the builder can't get some fired cases, then a HS gauge is the only solution I can see.

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.

On the epoxy-filled case = HS gauge topic. I fill a fired case with lead or solder. THEN I FL size the case. Effort is required. I believe that the lead filled case is swaged down when FL resizing. I DON'T know but suspect that the EPOXY filled case won't swage down.

I think.
joe b.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.

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Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.

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Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.

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" If so, please restate." Sure. Filling a fired case with lead/alloy, then FL sizing the case with the lead/alloy in it, makes a pseudo-HS gauge that doesn't have the "squishy" feel of an empty case.

Be safe.
joe b.

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

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Originally Posted by barrel-nut

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Originally Posted by joeb33050

On the safety topic. I'm writing about what I do, what worked for me. If the builder doesn't know/understand the process, he should get informed or stop. However, dusting off the safety topic and using it to reinforce one's point of view doesn't add to the discussion.

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Really ???

You were the OP who was " a little goosey" about using fired full length brass to set your headspace three days ago. These good people all chimed in politely giving you their opinions about this topic, which, like it or not, involves safety. That's why you started this thread, no? Keep in mind that this should not be descending into an "argument"- all of us are trying to help, that's all. Don't ridicule other people's reasoning, especially if they err on the side of "safety" regarding firearms.

Maybe we misunderstood the point of the original post? If so, please restate.

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" If so, please restate." Sure. Filling a fired case with lead/alloy, then FL sizing the case with the lead/alloy in it, makes a pseudo-HS gauge that doesn't have the "squishy" feel of an empty case.

Be safe.
joe b.

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Good point. If it works for you, then by all means, do it. Just don't hate on those of us who prefer to do it differently.

By the way, I really like the use of the word "squozen". Honestly, that's cool. :) :)

Along these lines how many of us check to make sure the case or go gauge protrudes @ least 1.25 out of the barrel before we install the barrel??

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Originally Posted by CJ in WY

Along these lines how many of us check to make sure the case or go gauge protrudes @ least 1.25 out of the barrel before we install the barrel??

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Did you mean .125" protrusion?