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Thinking of picking up a cheap Stevens for the build. Im awful handy around the machine shop, so anything that way isnt a problem (have a full machine/weld shop in my garage).
The question I have is that I want the gun to load from the mag, that is important to me. Will the 338 RUM load from the mag without extending it? I sounds like the Egde will not, without some work.
Would I be better off with the 7mm rem mag or 300 Win mag as the donor action?
Thanks for the help guys,
Stu
The 300 & 7mm actions are the same. Neither will work for magazine feed RUM loads. you will need to find a RUM, STW or H&H action to get the long mag you are looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
Even with a RUM or STW action, you'll have a tough time fitting anything besides the A-frame or Partition bullets. If you want to shoot the Accubonds, SMKs, or heavy Barnes you'll have to do some serious mods to the magazine. You'll also have to modify the action if you start with a stagger feed action.
The RUM is only slightly shorter than the Edge. With decent BC bullets, both will need longer COAL's that the 3.6" that the RUM or STW actions allow.
I would recommend the Edge or RUM in a Savage as a single shot.
If you are dead set on a repeater, start with a Remington 700 SPS. They are much more well suited for RUM based repeaters. :(
OK, that being said, how much different is the overall length?
Is it a matter of the action not being able to handle it, or the mag (if you start with a centre feed)?
Silly question, but how do i know if its center feed before ordering.
If its the action, could it be inletted to allow the bottom feed?
If its the mag, extension should be fairly straight forward with the right tools...I think :)
Stu
So i came up with about 3.785 as COAL for the 338 edge with 300g SMK.
COAL i came up with for 300 win mag is 3.620.
Im not sure of these numbers, just what a quick google search yielded :)
So were looking at about about 5/32 difference in COAL.
Magazine could be worked for this, as long as the action can do it.
Seems like this has been addressed with 338sin, Im just wondering if a can do this (without the rifle in front of me, its hard to imagineer *lol*)
Stu
Browning can also take some of the longer stuff
Standard mag box is about 3.5", RUM STW is 3.6"Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
A stagger feed action will match those lengths. A center feed action is about 3.8" iirc. Center feed magazine allows just over 3.5".
New models are center feed, the magazine is attached to the stock not the action.
Bottom metal? Do you want DBM? That's a whole other story. There isn't a Savage DBM that allows 3.785"
If you start with a center feed action, the action will not have to be modified, just the mag box. You'll have to open the end of the box to allow the longer COAL. You'll need to fix the mag box into the mag well of the stock somehow.
Most factory 300win rounds max out at 3.340"Quote:
Originally Posted by macds
3.785" is a good number for an Edge if you are only running the 300g SMK since it is not very sensitve to seating depth. The Berger hybrid is not as forgiving but much better than its VLD kin. If you run much shorter than the 3.785", you'll be loosing case capacity.
Don't get me wrong, the first Edge I built was a repeater from a 30-06 stagger feed action. It took a lot of work to make it correct. I learned that in order to do it, I had to irreversibly modify the action and the stock. At the rate I change barrels, it wasn't worth it to me.
My next Edge was built on a 110 long/short action as a single shot. In about 15 minutes I could swap the barrel and bolt head and be shooting 223, or anything else I wanted. Even as a repeater.
If you are going to do the work yourself and know what needs to be done, it very well may be worth it to you.
If your going to pay someone to do it, dollar for dollar, it may be cheaper/easier to start with a different action.
If you definately need that powerful a cartridge than go ahead and do it. But, there are alternatives in .338 that will fit a standard magazine, 338-06 is one. Another is a .338 on a Ruger .375 cartridge. That is a real powerhouse and will fit a standard action magazine. I beleive that it was discussed at length and rifles made for that Ruger based cartridge over on the Campfire website. It might be worth your while to check it out. I forget what they call it. Maybe .338-.375. Just a suggestion. My .35 Whelen is plenty enough for anything I will ever see on my crosshairs.
El Lobo
That would be the 338-Campfire. It's nearly the same as the 338 Sin. They have similar capacities and lengths, but Devin designed the Sin to use better brass available in the RUM cartridges, and later found he could use 330 Dakota brass.
"If you are dead set on a repeater, start with a Remington 700 SPS. They are much more well suited for RUM based repeaters."
Pardon my ignorance but why is that? I've messed with a few 700's over the years but never in a cartridge that size and it's been a while since I've looked closely at one. They never appealed to me as much as they do to the die hard Remington fans. The Savage action is pretty long so that's why I was wondering. Does the 700 have a longer magazine cutout? I really wish Hornady would commercialize the 338 Campfire/338 Ruger.
The biggest reason is that Remington's action screw are in the front bridge and in the rear tang. Savages rear screw is between the trigger and the mag box. This lets you move the rear of the mag box back substantially.
The other area that leans toward the Remington is the bolt stop. It can be modified to let the bolt come back much further. The Savage bolt stop is also the sear. It can't easily be modified to let the bolt come back further. The only thing that can be done is to use a notched front baffle from a RUM action or a WSM.
There are also Wyatt extended mag boxes for Remingtons. Savage stagger feed mag boxes attach to the action. Once you open an action for the longer round, you can't use a standard mag box again.
Remingtons can go back to standard configuration, Savages can't.
For the price of the Stevens 200, it wouldnt break the bank to buy a second one to do smaller rounds in.
What im reading is that in can be done, you cant can come back from the modifications. As long as the action will accomodate the COAL of 338RUM or Edge, I'm fairly confident that I can make my own magazine. So basically Im looking for a center feed Stevens 200. How do I know if its center feed? Are the newer models center or stagger?
Thanks
Stu
New models are center feed. You won't have to modify the action of a long action center feed.
You'll just have to open up the front of the mag box. You'll also need to figure out a way to move the mag box further back in the mag well while keeping it fixed to the stock.
You might not have to move the box back. I have a centerfeed model that I was looking at maybe putting a 300 Weatherby or 7STW barrel on. I was test fitting a 300 Weatherby round in it and it will clear the feed ramp in the front of the action with the box in it's current position. It just needs a notch cut out in the front of the box for the nose of the bullets to stick through. By the way geargrinder, thanks for clarifying the differences between the Remington and Savage. I thought after I asked that the screw spacing may have something to do with it, albeit the bolt stop problem, like you said can be fixed with a RUM baffle. I think Savage changed the screw spacing on the Lapua model and that's probably why.
are you able to eject and unfired long seated heavy bullet without pulling the bolt out the back?
I have a 300rum that I use in a standard 7mmRM 110 action, havent used in a while so I forget the details, seems I recall this being an issue for me and I have only been using 180gr 30cal bullets.
I went with a 338wm so I could have a no fuss repeater, I may someday get myself a 338rum and will treat it as a single shot - like my 300rum.
I haven't tried that yet because I can't chamber a round right now since it still has a 338wm barrel on it. But it appears to have enough room since the ejection port on the 110 is so long. If not I think all I would have to do is change the baffle to a RUM baffle and that should allow enough bolt movement to get full ejection. This one will probably stay a 338wm though since that's one of my favorite calibers. I, like you, went with it as well so that I knew I could have a repeater and I don't plan on shooting game at extreme distance anyway. So out to 500-600 yards I doubt I'll notice any difference in performance between the wm and rum. Slightly better trajectory but not enough to matter to me. If I want to punch paper at extreme distance there are much lighter calibers that won't beat me up as bad even though I am pretty recoil tolerant.
See my new post (today) on building a single shot 338 RUM. The short match action is far stiffer than any "open top" and will eject empties w/no problems. The left port load is plenty fast enough as this is not a "running jackrabbit rifle".
338 RUM is the choice, why ? FACTORY AMMO if you need it, which BTW is very accurate as well.
I figger with the 300 gr Berger and a 34" 3 groove nitrided tube, getting very close to 3000 should be do-able.
I'm not sure they would have to with the Lapua. The Lapua is quite a bit shorter than the RUM.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
A long action will eject a loaded Edge round easily. Even ones loaded long for single shot. It will eject longer than 4" COAL.Quote:
Originally Posted by bajabill
So if it will eject over 4", then the feed from the mag is an issue...
If you use the rum baffle, or notch the front, this becomes a non issue so long as the mag can contain and feed the round?
Stu
Correct, the ejection port is not a restraining factor. Just the mag opening. It's constrained in the rear by the action screw and the front by the lower lug abutment.
Once you get the mag opening large enough, you've got to rig a magazine to hold the long round. Then you have to fix it to the stock so it feeds correctly.
And this is where 338 sin shines, as it can be fed from a std. long action?
Man it would sure be nice to feed it big factory load without a lot of work... but then thats what everyone would do :)
Looks like I have more reading :)
Just for quick reference, what does the sin have on factory 338 rum? Ill be looking it up, but you guys have actual experience with it... 28-30" bbl?
Thanks
Stu
Very interesting discussion. I too have been contemplating a Savage 338 build and this has been enlightening. Looking forward to hear more about the 338 Sin.
I guess what is not clear to me is the intended use for this rifle. A RUM, Edge, Lapua or 340 WM is foolish in any barrel less than 30" actually better in 34" or more.
If you want a "33", for many applications a 338 Federal in a light Kimber 22" OR a 338 Winchester in a 24" barrel rifle will do the job for 100% of hunting. If you want to shoot gongs at 1000-2000 yards, that's another story. (I won't get into "long range hunting" as it's a no win debate).
A Savage match action is more rigid than any open top. A 34" 3 groove nitrided barrel will shoot faster and last much longer and a $3400 scope brings it all together, if you need that capability. If not: "if you can't get it done with a 30-06 etc."
I'll disagree. My buddies 28" barrel shoots very well and doesn't leave a considerable amount of velocity over the 32" barrel I had. It all depends on where your accuracy node is. My buddy got his accuracy at a higher pressure, I had to back mine off a bit to get the same velocity.Quote:
Originally Posted by officejet
A Yugo will get you to work, but to most people, they want something just because they want it. Need, is usually a secondary factor.
It's all just my opinion, and you know what everyone says about opinions. ::)
You may want to read this and get some hard facts before making such a bold statment. http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles...l_velocity.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by officejet
Barrel length does not make as big of a diference as most people think. The whole 50fps per inch is usualy bunk. My edge is getting 2800 fps with 300gr smks out of a 29" mcgowan. My buddy is shooting the same basic load and getting 2800 out of a 26".
"Then you have to fix it to the stock so it feeds correctly."
Yes if you're talking about a staggerfeed mag. Shouldn't have to with the centerfeeds as they're already fixed in the stock and not attached to the action. You should just be able to cut out a notch in the front for the bullets to stick through. I haven't tried this yet but plan to and wonder if the rounds would slide forward during recoil too far and make the bullet catch under the feed ramp.
"The left port load is plenty fast enough as this is not a "running jackrabbit rifle"."
True, which is why I have thought of just running mine as a single shot instead of all the fuss with the magazine. Haven't made up my mind yet.
By the way, Merry Christmas everybody!
You will have to fix it to the stock, because to get the most room, you'll have to ditch the "L" clip to move the magazine back in the mag well. And, as stated, the notch in the front for the bullets. Nothing left to hold the magazine in.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
I had to put a small radius on the front of the mag opening to keep the bullets from catching on the feed ramp. You really have to be careful here because it is directly behind the lower lug abutment. You want to keep as much metal there as possible.
Actually, no....it has more to do with what the actually land and groove measurement is. I built two, exact rifles, with the same barrels, from the same manufacturer. One barrel is almost 100 fps faster than the other....with the SAME load.Quote:
Originally Posted by jc
My point exactly. Many other factors come into play other that barrel length.
So as to not hijack the post from the OP here is the info on my edge repeater using accurate mags, mags
http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...inished-68313/
"You will have to fix it to the stock, because to get the most room, you'll have to ditch the "L" clip to move the magazine back in the mag well. And, as stated, the notch in the front for the bullets. Nothing left to hold the magazine in.
I had to put a small radius on the front of the mag opening to keep the bullets from catching on the feed ramp. You really have to be careful here because it is directly behind the lower lug abutment. You want to keep as much metal there as possible."
I must be missing something here because in my centerfeed action it doesn't look like the cag will have to be moved back. Now I haven't tried a RUM round in it but I have tested a 300 Weatherby which should be very close to the same COAL and it will actually squeeze into the magazine. The nose of the bullet is rubbing the front though so it won't come up unless I were to cut out a notch in the front of the box. There's a gap between the front of the mag box and the feed ramp that will allow enough clearance for the bullet so shouldn't require doing anything to the feed ramp. Now with very heavy 338 bullets it might be an issue but it looks like most rounds should fit. At least in my action it appears that way. I'll try to get a picture of it and post it. Not arguing, mind you, just telling what I've observed and trying to understand more myself. If I have to do any altering to the action, I'd just as soon use it as a single shot as it would be much less trouble. Wanting to also use it as a hunting rifle though makes me want it to be a repeater.
That is exactly what my brother did in order to run 240gr smks in his 300rum. It works perfectly. His action is a center feed stevens that started as a 7mm rem mag. He did not have to notch the ramp. He gets 2 roundsQuote:
Originally Posted by efm77
in the mag.
jc did your brother have any trouble with the rounds wanting to slide out of the opening he made in the front of the magazine during recoil or did it feed fine?
No trouble so far he has about 150 rounds through it. His rifle weights about 13lb and has a good brake so recoil is pretty slight.
My point exactly, a three groove nitrided 34" barrel will be a LOT faster than any factory barrel, and needs no silly brake to tame the recoil (14 pounds) and shatter your ears.
The idea of 338 Lapua or RUM as a "walkabout" rifle makes about as much sense as a B52 for a crop duster.
The reason for either cartridge begins at 1000 yards for people or target killing. For an ethical hunter, a 338 Win Mag or 375 H&H will handle anything in North America and come in at about 9 pounds w/a 24" barrel.