Torque Tuning???...What????

Ok....if you haven't read this article http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/ you may want to. Then again....you may not want to.

I read it a few times and essentially what I came away with was, it's an issue....just like receiver bedding.... of barrel harmonics. I suppose there is truth to this, and perhaps there is some "play" to getting better groups if your shooting factory ammo in your rifle.

But.....I dunno. I look at this article as "first I have to work up a solid load...then I have to shoot from a fouled barrel.....then I have to make sure my powder isn't temp sensitive....then I have to dance around the maypole tree....then I have to bring an allen wrench with me and adjust the torque depending on the temperature.....then bla, bla, bla, bla.

Or....how about I torque the receiver to the stock, bed the receiver, work up a load, and go hunting!!! Shoot the deer and field dress it. Come back...cut the loins and cook 'em, eat 'em and drink some beers!!!

I choose option "B".

Dave

I like option B as well!! But sometimes, option 1 will keep you awake at night thinking about it until you do it as well.

;D Option B. Unless I am shooting a .338 Lapua at 1500 yards. Even then, a .5 in group at a hundred makes a 7.5 inch group out there. Not really worried about that if aimed at center mass. lol. Almost... keyword almost... worthless for hunting. Unless you don't torque them at all from the factory, and you go hunting and it falls outta the stock :)

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Originally Posted by jonsrm125k5

Unless you don't torque them at all from the factory, and you go hunting and it falls outta the stock :)

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But I think.....if your wearing gloves....you can pick up the barreled action....and still aim and shoot it. Wearing of the gloves is NOT essential to this....but it will help stop the bleeding much faster. :)

muzz, Thanks for the belly laugh. I've been missing your "short bus" wisdom. ;D I've actually tried this totally futile routine on a properly Devcon bedded action in a laminate stock. Results: ZERO ! Needless to say, I couldn't see any benefit to buying that Hi-tec $150.00 in. lb. torque wrench. This is, however, an excellent way to test your bedding job. If the groups get larger OR smaller......... Back to Bedding 101 ! ;D JMHO based on experience.

Yeah,
What I got out of it is: CLEAN your gun, unless you want accuarcy, then "foul" it(also known as don't clean until accuracy starts to leave) and bed the action evenly. Oh, and buy my wrench...

I think the article honestly speaks to how poorly his action IS bedded. $.02

You people are hard headed and haven't studied the history of firearms and bedding and apparently never held a tuning fork, the tuning fork will vibrate differently if held in your hand or if it is clamped in a vice.

If you had written proof that changing torque settings will not alter barrel harmonics it would be one thing but the only thing you come armed with is cynicism and lack of knowledge.

Yo...Ed... :-\....your gettin all worked up about these tuning forks in a vice thing. ;) I'm not sayin that crankin the rear screw down from 10 in\lbs to 75 in\lbs won't change barrel harmonics. I'm sure it will. OTOH, Darkker's statement of "properly bedded" will probably negate any significant harmonic change with the high\low torque setting of the action. Get what I'm sayin?

So....bed the action properly....work up a load that gives you bug holes at 100 yards....and go kill small furry things.

I also think if you start messing with a properly bedded action by messing with the torque settings with a load that bug holes....your going to un-bug hole the load. And why would you want to do that??

Dave

Because with a torque wrench you can remove the barreled action, then reinstall at the same exact torque and get repeat performance.

"YOU" can call it twin bug hole performance. ::) Don't make me get fugly about your posting.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...LYBROTHERS.jpg

Hey..... ??? ??? ??? ???....That guy looks like he's wearing my shirt!!!

davemuzz....you actually made me laugh out loud with that last reply.....( by the way, looks more like a prison uniform shirt,but hey, everybody needs a hobby) and why would you cut your mom's picture out of your profile picture?. Now, on to the bbl harmonics.This can be a learning experience for me......if a barrel is free floated, and an action is PROPERLY bedded with a good bedding material, how can torque on the action screws effect harmonics? If the bbl is touching somewhere, and the bedding isn't rock hard and a stable, then maybe. But as stated in a prior post, back to bedding 101....I will probably be proven wrong, but this is what i have always read, heard and been taught by the guys that shoot at looooong range, and the guys that build those riflles...Not saying that if it makes you feel good , than do it, but other than going from one extreme (loose, to EXTREMELY tight) i can't see where it should make a difference.....rsbhunter

I had a Winchester Model 70 feather weight with BOSS or barrel tuning device, the action wasn't pillar bedded, it wasn't glass bed either. The bottom of the action contacted a soft rubber type compound that you could push your fingernail into but within a short time would return to normal and your fingernail mark would disappear.

I removed the action several times from the stock and never saw a change in group size, I sold the rifle to a co-worker because of a ruptured disk in my neck and the BOSS didn't reduce recoil enough to allow me to shoot it. This reads as I then spent more time reading about rifles than shooting them and studying bedding on my milsurps and commercial rifles.

I also want to tell you all I'm not an expert on anything but after collecting the Enfield rifle and every bit of printed bit of information I could on the Enfield. On of my main interests was studying the bedding of the Enfield rifle and its effects on accuracy. On the No.4 Enfield the bolt release on the American and Canadian made Enfields were located in a different location the the British made Enfields (No.4 Mk.1 vs No.4 Mk.1*

The location of the bolt release effected the POI, headspace effected effected accuracy, and bedding effected accuracy. What I'm getting at is simple, the action can effect barrel vibrations, and the action can flex when fired and no type of bedding will keep it from moving. If you don't believe this then why are the Savage target actions made differently with beefier stronger actions.

Have an open mind, study bedding methods and what is used to tune a rifle for accuracy, and remember on a military rifle you don't tune your ammo you tune the rifle to shoot the issued ammo.


P.S. The twins were Australian and shot Enfield rifles.

[img width=482 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/WORK-AMMO-b.jpg[/img]

As to action stiffness and harmonics, it is a known fact that actions that have no mag cutout are used for precision work, that being a given, if the Savage has a floating bolt head(and it does) why would a stiffer action lead to an increase in accuracy , when only the frt of the action and the bolt head come into play as to the firing of the cartridge.I have read, and it almost makes sense, that the rear of the action is mostly there to house the bolt body, and give a platform for securing it. Now, by no means an expert either (thought i did stay at LaQuinta once) i have seen rail guns that had NO back attachment of the action....a massive housing for the barrel shoulder and about 2" of barrel was it...and the action actually hung off the back!!!! If i'm not mistaken i read about it on Accurate Shooter.com forum....and it was a Savage!!!! Just another veiw of what actually may and may not effect accuracy....if we had the answer, we would all own 1 hole guns.....rsbhunter

Biged51,...First...there's no doubt that you know a bunch about the Enfield's...and I won't even question your knowledge about the Enfield rifles.

OTOH, Enfield's actions were made for the military and their actions were not bedded as we (collectively "we" as those who shoot tiny little one-ragged holes) bed our rifle actions. Enfield's were designed to shoot MOM (Minuet of Man) at certain distances....and as such, one ragged hole at 100 or 200 yards wasn't a prime motivating factor. However I'm sure some of those rifles can and do give that kind of accuracy.

That being a "given" I would also think that if you did a proper bedding job on an Enfield action, and torqued the action to it's military stock at a proper in\lb, you could then develop a load that would give you that rifles best grouping.....and then should you decide to "mess" with the torque....I doubt that changing the torque settings would make a significant difference in the groupings of that load.

As for the BOSS on the Winchester that you speak of, I think that's nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the uninformed. I'm sure it does improve the grouping of factory ammo.....but if Winchester would simply put some time and effort into building a better action to stock fit.....this BOSS would not be needed.

But again....IMHO the BOSS is for the uninformed and the guy who hunts 2 weeks a year.

As for the Savage Target Actions with the 3 screws vs. the Regular Actions with the 2 screws......sure, the 3 screw actions are going to give you a much stronger action to stock hold than the 2 screw. How could that not be? But....your not really going to notice that 2 screw vs. 3 screw until your shooting beyond 500 yards. Then the men and the boys will part ways. I shoot at groundhogs from 300 yards (close ones) to 650 yards. It's those long one's that will teach you to be steady on the hold and keep you squeezing the trigger....and not jerking the trigger. But....I'll still miss by 6"!!! :) I'll blame than on my spotter!!!!

But....you get what you pay for. You bring a Handi Rifle in 44 magnum and I'll bring my Smith 'n Wesson Model 29 Performance Center in 44 magnum to the range. We can both shoot from a rest at 100 yards with open sights. I got $20 that says my groups are tighter than yours. Six shots of course. ;D

Oh....BTW....Thanks for the extra pics!!! These pics and comments have me bustin a side out rollin on the floor!!! I'm stealing 'em for a few other forums I post on.

And I love these kind of conversations. I always come away with info I don't know. I do know that the older I get.....the more I realize that there's so much that I just don't know!!!

DAve

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rsbhunter

why would a stiffer action lead to an increase in accuracy

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Because the "action" is holding the "tuning fork" which effects barrel vibrations and flexing.

Note the heavier and the larger diamete the barrel the less this has effects, with sporting weight barrels being effected the most. And the Enfield rifle only had one bedding screw. ;)

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davemuzz

As for the BOSS on the Winchester that you speak of, I think that's nothing more than a marketing gimmick for the uninformed.

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Your right, your uninformed my Winchester shot bug hole groups.

Tuning a rifle is tuning a rifle and the results are all that counts.

Below an Enfield "Minute of Man" group, and only two fliers. ;D Not bad for a Enfield rifle with iron sights and a 57 year old nearsighted man who wears glasses.

(NOTE: a "Minuet" is a dance you do around the subject of accuracy tuning) ;D

[img width=487 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/range-day-2-1.jpg[/img]

Nice job of photo shopping out the powder burn marks on that target Ed.

Well.....since we seem to be measuring.....here's a pic of my 45-70 shooting the Hornady gummie-tips from my Marlin 1895XLR. (4 shots) Oh...this is a 200 yard target and I am shooting from a rest. The gun has Williams peep sights....no scope. And my eyes are 55 years old. ;D

[img width=600 height=450]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/davemuzz/DSC00674.jpg[/img]


Oh....same gun....100 yards shooting Cast Performance 405gr. Lead FN. The first two were a tad low and then I got my Williams peep adjusted and fired off the next 3 in a row. ;D ;D

[img width=600 height=450]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/davemuzz/DSC00109.jpg[/img]

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gotcha

Nice job of photo shopping out the powder burn marks on that target Ed.

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The target above and below were shot at 50 yards, I shot at 50 yards because of my eyes and fuzzy sights and targets, meaning at 50 yards my eyes were parallax free. (tired eyes and cataracts starting to form)

BUT the target below was shot with the standard Enfield Mk.1 rear sight, the one above was shot with a Parker Hale PH-5C target sight.

Below is a 10 shot group fired at 50 yards from a two groove barrel with cordite throat erosion. :o

[img width=536 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/range-day-target.jpg[/img]


We had a Enfield postal match by country and the Australians won the match, I got even with the Australian the following weekend with my Koala bear target and my Enfield bayonet. >:( (bung hole groups) ;D


[img width=568 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/postalshoot.jpg[/img]

And remember Mr. gotcha computers and photo editing were not invented in the Enfield era and the Enfield rifle used old school methods. ::)

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YAH, YAH ,,,,,,,,,,,,, & my grandma is a Quarter back in the NFL

This torque tuning thread is beginning to get pretty tough!!!! :P I think I'm gonna go put a tuning fork in my Cheby radiator for awhile and see what happens. :D

Torque tuning does have it's merits, it was popular in the 20th century before technology taught us new ways to improve accuracy without the day to day inconsistancies and the need for tools at the firing line. If a person was technically challenged and could not afford a good gunsmith, a torque wrench could be your best friend. ;D

Dear Mr. gotcha Mr. davemuzz Mr. sharpshooter

Your mothers wear combat boots. >:( I hope all of you get torqued out of shape! ;D

[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fatwrench.jpg[/img]




AND..........................You Klingon dogs



Live long and prosper.



http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...dp51/spock.gif

HMMMMM......I wonder what Mr. Spock was really "prospering" for????

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

Dear Mr. gotcha Mr. davemuzz Mr. sharpshooter

Your mothers wear combat boots.

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Oh....and I was gonna tell you thanks for being such a good sport...but Ma said if I was even close to being nice to you.....she would crank up and stick one of those army boots so far up a special place....that I would have to wait until those metal lace clasp rusted off 'afore I could even think of removing it.

And......that's a lot of 'taters to be backin up. :P

Besides.....I dunno how you knew she wore combat boots.....but you'll never know they are a size 14 triple E. ;D

You must think we are dumb or sumpin.

Dave

this has to be one of the funniest posts i have seen for a long time!!!!

love it

bob

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davemuzz

Besides.....I dunno how you knew she wore combat boots.....

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Your making assumptions again just like your comments on torque tuning. ::)

I did meet your your mother and it explains why your so hard headed.

You can even see her boots. :o (and her drinking problem) ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...51/JACKASS.jpg

The coup de grâce.................

LongRangeHunting Online Magazine

Fine-tuning load AND rifle. (torque tuning at its best) ;D

http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...d-rifle-56021/

P.S. Mr. davemuzz, my dog saw your mother and got violently ill.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...51/dogpuke.jpg

It's amazing how you can distort the real facts with a photo! The dog is simply showing his reaction to living w/ you for so long................. Wait a minute........... I could be wrong. Maybe it's the openly gay literature on the back of the toilet.

Dear Mr. gotcha

My wife and pets all love me because I'm a kind and caring humanitarian.

[img width=600 height=439]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/rocky-3.jpg[/img]

But my pet squirrel Rocky has a few words for you............................................








[img width=600 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/SQNUTS.jpg[/img]


P.S. Enfield rifle lovers and torque tuners make great foster parents. ;D (just ask Rocky)

small Ed, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !

How much torque does it take to make a squirrel behave?

BigEd......What you have done.....is shown that like this guy: [img width=381 height=450]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a212/davemuzz/Watchurnutz.jpg[/img] Your nutz. Or u gotta watch your nutz....cause this little guy lost his....and he's tryin to grow a set.....but I don't think anyone 'splained that it don't work like that.


Oh.....and we can seperate the "BigEd's" http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...nkeyinhole.jpg from the other regular guys!!!! ;D ;D ;D :D :D

LOL, muzz you are DEFINITLEY a Huckleberry. It's amazing how prison has changed you ;D

I know i'm gonna regret this, but prison didn't change her, it was that sex change operation........oh!!!!!! let it rain poop on me!!!! I knows it'sa commin.....

Go ahead muzz and turn your back again and I'll shake, rattle and roll your world.
(and make it vibrate like a tuning fork)

[img width=295 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/big_balls.jpg[/img]

D--n! Looks like a south Georgia squirrel.

dave

we need more stuff get going!!!!! more cartoons!!

bob

Don't worry if Mr. gotcha Mr. davemuzz and Mr. sharpshooter keep patting themselves on the back about torque tuning they will end up with self inflicted whiplash and still be wrong. :o

[img width=314 height=450]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/fight.jpg[/img]

well i didnt see whether dave was really behind the action stuff i think he was haveing a good time with it.

but i still like all the cartoons.

bob

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

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rsbhunter

why would a stiffer action lead to an increase in accuracy

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Because the "action" is holding the "tuning fork" which effects barrel vibrations and flexing.

Note the heavier and the larger diamete the barrel the less this has effects, with sporting weight barrels being effected the most. And the Enfield rifle only had one bedding screw. ;)

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The Enfield action is notorious for flexing and the rear lock up bolt doesn't help either. Yes, the Enfield can be made to shoot but it takes a lot of work and the bedding process is so different from Mauser style actions.

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GaCop

The Enfield action is notorious for flexing and the rear lock up bolt doesn't help either. Yes, the Enfield can be made to shoot but it takes a lot of work and the bedding process is so different from Mauser style actions.

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And the Remington 788 had rear locking lugs but Americans didn't complain about a "inherently weak" action that flexed. The action screws and the stock are the "hand" that holds the tuning fork barrel and can control barrel vibrations.

And military Mauser rifles had barrels "tuned" by the "steps" cut in the barrel at the vibration node points.

[img width=600 height=231]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0991.jpg[/img]

[img width=600 height=334]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP0993.jpg[/img]

And the Enfield rifle was designed to shoot round holes in square heads. ;)

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I've been away for a few days......but it's good to see you guys haven't let the subject....let's say....fade away!!! I'm crackin up over here!!!

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Originally Posted by davemuzz

I've been away for a few days......but it's good to see you guys haven't let the subject....let's say....fade away!!! I'm crackin up over here!!!

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I'm cracking up too davemuzz. ;D


Savage Arms Customer Service
Frequently Asked Questions
What is the torque spec for the action screws on Savage rifle stocks?
Accustock models -40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)
Centerfire w/ synthetic stock -30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

Thats funny, not "ONE" word about hand tight. ::)

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That's funny....When I toured the plant, I talked with several assemblers while we was ambling our way through the plant and finally to the guy who was assembling my rifle. I watched him put together several units while we were visiting and not once did he put a torque wrench on an action screw.
The only thing he put a torque wrench on was the trigger. After the trigger is installed and adjusted, the safety is set to the "ON" position and 40 ft/lbs of torque is applied to the trigger via a special adapter to make sure that the safety still performed with induced stretch on the trigger bracket.
When you do the same thing 100's of times a day, you get to know what "hand tight" is.

It goes to show ya that there are individuals out there that have common sense and good judgement. Torque is torque, not matter what the situation. I could torque a screw @ 40 in/lbs and it could be cross threaded, which would give you a totally false sense of security.

Now that is funny, I spent over 25 years as a quality control inspector working at a military overhaul base working on aircraft. What is not funny is its always the same know it alls who think they are smarter than the average bear and don't have to torque anything to set standards.

In a class we asked the mechanics to torque a bolt to 40 inch pounds with a open end wrench and using their best guess at the torque. Not one person was even close to the mark and the majority were way over 40 inch pounds.

Thats why the cave man below was called Primitive Pete. We called these know it all people hammer and chisel mechanics.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...gedp51/pp1.jpg