What happened to my stock?

I couldn't figure our why my bedding was no longer making contact at the rear action screw. Now I know. The stock was just spreading apart when I tightened it down. See the crack that runs all the way through the rear pillar section and down to the bottom of the mag well. Runs clear through the mag well side to the trigger side. What caused this? The rear screw was only torqued to 35 in lbs. It is a Stocky's Bobby Hart LRT.

Stocky's put me in contact with the makers and said they should take care of me.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...6/100_0037.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...6/100_0035.jpg

This was a Stocky's stock....and they put you in contact with the manufacturer? HUH?

Yep. That kind of had me scratching my head too. Keystone Sporting Arms is who they said made the stock. http://keystonesportingarmsllc.com/

I could not reach anyone as it was after 5pm. I'll try tomorrow.

At least Stockys would talk to you long enough to give you the number. I have been waiting for a call from their customer service dept. since March.

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Originally Posted by dcloco

This was a Stocky's stock....and they put you in contact with the manufacturer? HUH?

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That caught me also....so they ARE NOT Stockys stocks I see now which just makes them a middleman seller?
Sounds like..."We just sell them not warranntee them" excuse.
Hopefully the real stock maker will take care of the issue, keep us informed.

I had a old factory stock do this in between the front action screw to the mag well. If Stocky's (or whoever) will not help you, this is what I would do. Dremel out the crack about 1/16" as far down as you can and remove the pillar. Install pillar on action and re-bed around the rear action screw. Follow bedding techniques on this site, or accurateshooter.com as really good illustrations on bedding.

I called Keystone and they were very nice. The lady is sending out a UPS call number and they will pick it up free of charge. She said they would look at it but it did not sound like something they would fix, probably just replace it. We'll see what happens from here, but it sounds promising. It just sucks that I will have to start from scratch and re-bed, hog out the barrel channel for a full bull and get new pillars. Hopefully the rifle will be back in service in a couple of weeks. It's my dad's and we shoot tactical matches every weekend.

I'm going to guess that the cause is the action wasn't making firm contact with the pillar when it was bedded. Then when you tightened it up, the action wedged the laminate apart. I bought a BVSS recently, which was trying to do the same thing because the action was bottoming in the stock before it contacted the pillar. (because when Savage sanded the action, they took off too much material around the rear action screw) I knocked out the pillar, took some of the shoulder depth off in a lathe, re-bedded the pillar, end of problem.

[quote=jdhord ]
I'm going to guess that the cause is the action wasn't making firm contact with the pillar when it was bedded. Then when you tightened it up, the action wedged the laminate apart. +1

I see what you are saying, but if that is the case the stock design needs reworked. The pillars Stocky's suppied need to be about 1/8" longer. Then there would be issue with the magazine retaining clip fitting around the pillar as the clip only has clearance for the screw and not the pillar. Are the pillars usually that proud on the factory centerfeed stocks? If so, how does the retaining clip fit around the pillar? I would like to see a picture a factroy wooden centerfeed stock if anyone has one.

On my BVSS factory stock the clip was sandwiched between the pillar and the action. It's a cheesy setup. I ditched the whole setup and put a Whidden block in mine.

I had the same thing happen with a walnut stock I modified from staggerfeed to a centerfeed. I cut the notch for the "L" clip and when I reinstalled the action, the stock split pretty much the same place yours did. I ended up replacing the stock.

I have been running into plys of laminate being soft like punk wood. I did a bedding job on a rifle recently and there was one ply of laminate that I could scrape out with my thumbnail. Only about 4" long but from the magwell forward. Like there was a dead spot in the wood. Since almost all the laminate in gunstocks comes from one place (Rutland Plywood) maybe their QC is slipping.

Well, I finally got a reply on the stock:

Good Afternoon, I checked with the wood shop supervisor, and went over your stock, email & pictures again, & I'm afraid there is nothing we can do. Our warranty states that once a stock has been altered in any way it voids the warranty. The stock shipped from us in perfect condition, exactly the way it had been ordered, and fit properly to the Savage rifle action it was meant for. Once a customer starts doing "custom work", it is no longer protected under warranty. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Sincerely Erin @ Keystone Sporting Arms, LLC


I understand their warranty language gives them an out, but hoped they would take a different approach. I guess their stocks are not made to withstand the rigors of bedding, lol. I will just be sure not to get another stock from them I guess.

That really blows, but all is not lost,you can still fix it. I would put one of those recoil pins in it. I'm not sure what they're called but you can get them at hardware stores. They have a head on both ends, and screw into each other. Someone else might know what they are called.

Push the pillar out and super glue the crack. Then re-set the pillar with epoxy.

I love their reply. Great way for them to stand behind their product. I can't see how you opening it up and bedding it would weaken that area enough for it to crack. It will defiantly make me think twice before I order anything from stockys. All they had to do was replace the stock and it would have been worth Soooooo much more in free positive advertisement on the forum. I wonder if they realize how many people read this forum. :-\ :-\ :-\

Thanks, good to know I didn't order a stock from them. Sorry for your bad luck, but it does sound like you can fix the stock yourself.

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

Push the pillar out and super glue the crack. Then re-set the pillar with epoxy.

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I'm not sure if I will be able to get the pillar out since it's in there with Devcon pretty good. I was so mad that they didn't offer anything, not even a new stock at a discount, that I almost told them to keep it since they would not stand behind there products any better than that.

I'd like some suggestions on a fix. Super glue might be thin enough to get down into the crack. I'm just worried about long term.

I've seen stocks repaired by drilling a hole thru the stock from side to side, pushing thru a serrated brass pin loaded with epoxy as well as loading the crack with super glue or epoxy. You would need to be pretty accurate with the drill in this case going thru that thin section back of the pillar. Thats what I would try and then releive the reciever channel before you rebed the action making sure that it doesn't need to force into the stock. Just trying to make the best of a bad situation. It looks as though you are stuck with it so good luck with the fix. I don't think it's hopeless. It will probably work out just fine. .02 Quick

Hi, Stocky here ....

I just became aware of this thread so here goes...

First, I apologize you had a problem. I am at my desk daily from about 9am to 8pm, unless I am hunting or at the range or something, so if you ever have any issues I am here to help. Don't guess or theorize, as I test, redesign, bed etc. hundreds of stocks and have usually seen it and/or discussed it several times before before. I'd rather discuss your ideas before you alter, than troubleshoot what you did wrong after the fact.

Please do not hesitate to call or email me personally anytime and I'll get back to you as soon as I am able to, usually within a couple hours. (Please don't use private messaging, use the stockys@stockysstocks.com email. My email is mbi.stockys@gmail.com, but please use it sparingly.) Yes, supervising the tech support of about 200 calls daily, once in a while someone forgets to return a call. Even me. In the future I'd consider a personal favor if you report even the smallest gaps in our service directly. You'll find I am a very straight forward guy and not prone to sugar coating.

Now back to that crack. It is not 'delamination' (that's straight down the glue between 2 layers, caused by a gap in the glue) or "punk wood", because if there was such a thing, it'd show up elsewhere in the stock along the layer plus the bit would likely expose it somewhere during milling. Any defects would also tend to show up across a whole sequence of stocks, as 2-3 are made from a blank and the blanks produced in like lots.

You can see by the way it zippered down a layer that the glue and the solid wood layer tried to hold but whatever stress it was put under caused the laminated layer to zipper on it's grain, half sticking to one side, half to another. A very focused stress it appears was applied, in this case I'd wager your receiver was acting like a wedge splitting the wood apart as the screw is tightened and / or it is subjected to recoil. See how thick the epoxy is along the sides?

When you bed a stock one must be certain it is sitting all the way down on the pillar before adding the epoxy, in this case your pillar is flush with the wood and the bedding agent is holding the receiver well above it, with a gap over the pillar.

Did you grind that part out or is that the way you attempted to tighten it down?

You say "no longer making contact" put according to that photo it never did make contact with the pillar, plus the epoxy appears to be much thicker than I would expect along the sides. Did you grind out all that wood, or did you somehow bed the receiver high enough for the epoxy to be so thick?

The only contact the receiver appears to make is either side of and well above the pillar, creating the aforementioned wedge effect and spreading the wood apart and cracking the weakest part (trigger inlet / screw hole) as you described.

If it was ground out, it was to get rid of the crack in the epoxy, no? If there was NO epoxy there it was not bed correctly. If there was epoxy there, the epoxy must have cracked too, no? Wood couldn't have cracked under the glue.

Honestly, not trying to be confrontational, and I am not trying to get into a back and forth here. But you can see why all bets are off once you modify a stock, we have no control over what's done, how can we guarantee your bedding job?! FYI: Occasions such as this is why we put the following on every invoice and packing slip:

"Due to the nature of our pastime many of the items we sell are designed to be altered, modified or otherwise customized. We are even happy to work with you and suggest such modifications. However, once you begin to make them be aware your stock is now yours. Unauthorized returns, damaged items, or items that have been altered from their original state are not eligible for refunds or exchanges for obvious reasons. [/i]"

You have any idea how many stocks I have screwed up in 35 years of bedding rifles? Factories simply do not accept returns on altered stocks so, once I remove wood, machine metal or mix glue I understand I am making a decision to keep the item come what may. (This is the firearms industry and there's serious liability also.)

Good news I have is:

• 1. You can grind out ALL the Devcon and I recommend you first repair the crack by building a tape 'dam' and saturating (injecting) the crack with the original, runny Acraglas. Then bed it in Acraglas gel, being absolutely certain of pillar contact before tightening. Never seen that stuff crack and the stock will be better than new, and/or;
• 2. I'll offer to give you a replacement stock, in the interest of customer service to our friends in Savage Shooters for $100. Keep the old one, too, we cannot take it back for liability reasons after alteration.

Thanks,

Don B.

Sounds like Don B. made you a pretty good offer. Good job on his part. 8)
If I was you, I'd be jumping all over that deal. A new stock and the other to keep and work on? Don't pass up that deal. ;)

First off, I did not mean to sound confrontational towards Stocky's. Stocky's was not the manufacturer in this case so I have no beef with them. No problem with Stocky's what so ever.

I will say this... the crack would have happened with bedding or no bedding because the supplied pillar is way to short to reach the action. The action only rests on the two sides and is about 1/8th of inch above the pillar, bedding or no bedding. So the wedge effect is still present without the bedding.

"If it was ground out, it was to get rid of the crack in the epoxy, no? If there was NO epoxy there it was not bed correctly. If there was epoxy there, the epoxy must have cracked too, no? Wood couldn't have cracked under the glue". Question - How could I put the mag retaining clip in place if there was epoxy in the location you speak of? There was no epoxy in this location and I didn't grind any epoxy out to try to be dishonest and hide something. Please don't insinuate that I did something dishonest. I'll admit I'm no master stock bedder, but I'm not dishonest. I removed the epoxy that ran down the sides so I could put the mag retaining clip in place.

I did not remove any wood in the rear section at all. I just cleaned out the devcon than ran down in the mag retaining clip area. Maybe I was supplied with the wrong pillars. There is absolutely no way the rear pillar suppied is long enough to reach the action, bedding or no bedding. I would have to remove about 1/8 th of an inch of wood along the sides for the action to rest on the pillar, then remove more wood under the mag retaining clip area so the action wouldn't rest on it...that or counter sink the inletting for the rear pillar about 1\8th inch deeper so the pillar would protrude far enough to reach the action. If I did remove enough wood for the action to reach the pillar, then the ejection port would be below the wood line. It would be easy to bed it right on the pillar if the pillar was quite a bit longer. The bedding is not really that thick, I shimmed up the tang with a few pieces of tape. It is quite possible it is a bad bedding job. I've done it this way before, but the stocks had aluminum bedding blocks in them. This stock was fine for about 6 months before the crack devoloped.

Thank you much for your offer. I only wish Keystone had done the same. I already ordered a new Choate tactical from Midway yesterday and can't spend another $100. No worries, I'm over it already.

I am glad to see Stocky's got back to you. :)

Wish they'd get a hold of me. Been calling, emailing, and waiting since March.

Mr. Stocky, any chance you know when that will be?

boots: You see the Email addey listed? Drop Don B. a note and see what he has to say. ;)

I hear you Mikey. Already there, figured that I would throw it up here too since now he is active in this thread.

I don't want anybody to misunderstand me. I am happy with Stocky's products so far. Quality has been very good and fit required almost no fitting at all. It also seems that if you talk to the right person you can get your problems fixed, so that's all good. I just wish in my case it was easier to get in touch with that right person. Guess we'll see for me.

Sorry didn't mean to hi-hack the thread.

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Originally Posted by MDM

First off, I did not mean to sound confrontational towards Stocky's. Stocky's was not the manufacturer in this case so I have no beef with them. No problem with Stocky's what so ever.

I will say this... the crack would have happened with bedding or no bedding because the supplied pillar is way to short to reach the action. The action only rests on the two sides and is about 1/8th of inch above the pillar, bedding or no bedding. So the wedge effect is still present without the bedding.

"If it was ground out, it was to get rid of the crack in the epoxy, no? If there was NO epoxy there it was not bed correctly. If there was epoxy there, the epoxy must have cracked too, no? Wood couldn't have cracked under the glue". Question - How could I put the mag retaining clip in place if there was epoxy in the location you speak of? There was no epoxy in this location and I didn't grind any epoxy out to try to be dishonest and hide something. Please don't insinuate that I did something dishonest. I'll admit I'm no master stock bedder, but I'm not dishonest. I removed the epoxy that ran down the sides so I could put the mag retaining clip in place.

I did not remove any wood in the rear section at all. I just cleaned out the devcon than ran down in the mag retaining clip area. Maybe I was supplied with the wrong pillars. There is absolutely no way the rear pillar suppied is long enough to reach the action, bedding or no bedding. I would have to remove about 1/8 th of an inch of wood along the sides for the action to rest on the pillar, then remove more wood under the mag retaining clip area so the action wouldn't rest on it...that or counter sink the inletting for the rear pillar about 1\8th inch deeper so the pillar would protrude far enough to reach the action. If I did remove enough wood for the action to reach the pillar, then the ejection port would be below the wood line. It would be easy to bed it right on the pillar if the pillar was quite a bit longer. The bedding is not really that thick, I shimmed up the tang with a few pieces of tape. It is quite possible it is a bad bedding job. I've done it this way before, but the stocks had aluminum bedding blocks in them. This stock was fine for about 6 months before the crack devoloped.

Thank you much for your offer. I only wish Keystone had done the same. I already ordered a new Choate tactical from Midway yesterday and can't spend another $100. No worries, I'm over it already.

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Boots,

this is a good attitude. Placing the right thoughts at the right place. Stocky's did the stand up thing. You recognized that. This makes you and Stocky's in the "Good Guys" column.

I have no knowledge on how to repair your orginal stock, but sure wish you well with the Choate.

Sean

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Originally Posted by seanhagerty

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MDM

First off, I did not mean to sound confrontational towards Stocky's. Stocky's was not the manufacturer in this case so I have no beef with them. No problem with Stocky's what so ever.

I will say this... the crack would have happened with bedding or no bedding because the supplied pillar is way to short to reach the action. The action only rests on the two sides and is about 1/8th of inch above the pillar, bedding or no bedding. So the wedge effect is still present without the bedding.

"If it was ground out, it was to get rid of the crack in the epoxy, no? If there was NO epoxy there it was not bed correctly. If there was epoxy there, the epoxy must have cracked too, no? Wood couldn't have cracked under the glue". Question - How could I put the mag retaining clip in place if there was epoxy in the location you speak of? There was no epoxy in this location and I didn't grind any epoxy out to try to be dishonest and hide something. Please don't insinuate that I did something dishonest. I'll admit I'm no master stock bedder, but I'm not dishonest. I removed the epoxy that ran down the sides so I could put the mag retaining clip in place.

I did not remove any wood in the rear section at all. I just cleaned out the devcon than ran down in the mag retaining clip area. Maybe I was supplied with the wrong pillars. There is absolutely no way the rear pillar suppied is long enough to reach the action, bedding or no bedding. I would have to remove about 1/8 th of an inch of wood along the sides for the action to rest on the pillar, then remove more wood under the mag retaining clip area so the action wouldn't rest on it...that or counter sink the inletting for the rear pillar about 1\8th inch deeper so the pillar would protrude far enough to reach the action. If I did remove enough wood for the action to reach the pillar, then the ejection port would be below the wood line. It would be easy to bed it right on the pillar if the pillar was quite a bit longer. The bedding is not really that thick, I shimmed up the tang with a few pieces of tape. It is quite possible it is a bad bedding job. I've done it this way before, but the stocks had aluminum bedding blocks in them. This stock was fine for about 6 months before the crack devoloped.

Thank you much for your offer. I only wish Keystone had done the same. I already ordered a new Choate tactical from Midway yesterday and can't spend another $100. No worries, I'm over it already.

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Boots,

this is a good attitude. Placing the right thoughts at the right place. Stocky's did the stand up thing. You recognized that. This makes you and Stocky's in the "Good Guys" column.

I have no knowledge on how to repair your orginal stock, but sure wish you well with the Choate.

Sean

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Sean I think your quoted post here was more for MDM than me. MDM was the member with the broken stock that Stocky's offered to send him another for $100. Me I am still waiting to hear from Stocky's on my issue. My issue much simpler but I can't get anyone to even talk to me about it, I just keep getting told that they will have the right person call me and they never do. Hopefully I will get my issue resolved.

Boots

Boots: Did you try "both" email addys? Patience and perserverance. ;D
Maybe they just don't want to talk to you? ;) Hang in there, Mike.

Yup, the stockys@stockys.com one I have had for quite a while. It's not that big of a deal, its more the principle of it. It will happen, I had given up on it and settled to the idea of just never buying from them again, and then they responded to MDM's problem and I thought I would try just one more time.

Edit: just checked my email and Don responded with a new phone number to call to get me straight through. Thanks Don.

Talked with a Customer Service Rep today. She was very helpful in fixing the issue. Come to find out, she said that when they started the 24/7 hotline, it was using an outside company to handle all the customer correspondence and they were supposed to be send emails/messages to Stockys regarding customer service issues so they could call people. I also took it that the outside company was taking the sales orders and sending the orders to stockys.

The Rep informed me that they are no longer using an Outside Company to handle their calls and correspondence anymore due to the fact that the messages/emails were usually wrong or not sent, and the sales orders were not sent correctly and sometimes not even taken correctly.

Since them getting screwed by the "Answering Service" they were using, and that was causing the issues with people, I can understand and I thank them for getting back to me and fixing my problem quickly. I'll give them another shot in the future.

Just thought I'd Share this.

8) 8) 8)