Is truing and timing worth it?

I put together a 260 using a Savage long action. It shoots well, but somehow I always think it can do better. I'm shooting about .75 MOA at 100 yds. I'm thinking it should be a lot better since I hand load an tune the loads for the rifle. My other rigs, 308 and 223, all shoot well within .5 moa. I was thinking that maybe the donor action was out of true, since it was a pawn shop beater rifle in 300 Win Mag when originally purchased. I'm thinking SSS for the timing and truing - $125 seems reasonable, but I don't know if it's worth it or not. The other concern I have is SSS itself. I had a "tough" experience with them last year waiting for my stock and some other components, maybe they were backed up, maybe it's the normal order of business, but I'm willing to give them a second shot if the opinions say they've gotten better. I do know the stock and components I received were fantastic as far as workmanship goes - absolutely perfect in all respects. So the questions are 1) is timing and truing worth it on a Savage LA 2) has SSS improved in the customer support area 3) if not SSS - then who?

Thanks all.....

I don't think you'll see any improvement in accuracy. Last time I tried to get something from them all I got was busy signals. But, there work is great. Also, note any good gun smith is backed up.

I'll add, I have one done by SSS and I'm very happy with it.

IMHO not worth the bucks do the 38 special bolt lift mod you can find out how in the archives that will help a bunch with heavy bolt lift . It is highly unlikely that I will ever do anything with sss again .The last thing I did the customer service was terrible the completion date was moved several times and seeing it is my money that is paying thier bill I expect better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mugsie

I'm thinking SSS for the timing and truing - $125 seems reasonable, but I don't know if it's worth it or not.

---

Depends on what your looking for, With a T&T job you will get better and more consistant ignition, which can account for a small amount of accuracy potential. You will also have less opening effort on the bolt, which disturbs the gun less, and keeps it closer to being on target. You may not find over whelming proof that you have increased accuracy, but you have to remember at this is the final point of getting a savage just right. It sounds like you have other things that need done first, like tuning your load. A out of box Savage should shoot a 5 shoot 100 yard group average at around .5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mugsie

The other concern I have is SSS itself. I had a "tough" experience with them last year waiting for my stock and some other components, maybe they were backed up, maybe it's the normal order of business, but I'm willing to give them a second shot if the opinions say they've gotten better. I do know the stock and components I received were fantastic as far as workmanship goes - absolutely perfect in all respects. So the questions are 1) is timing and truing worth it on a Savage LA 2) has SSS improved in the customer support area 3) if not SSS - then who?

---

This is the one thing that I don't understand, in the gun world dealing with aftermarket custom parts there will be a long wait no matter where you go. I talked to Hobie Bond (Works at Kelby's.) about a new Atlas action. ($850 bucks) He told me if I want them to build me an action I better order it now if I want to see it by this time next year. A good friend of mine is getting a Sticks drop port panda, (I don't know cost but a Panda is $1200 plus the mod work.) and he doesn't think he will see it this year. Try ordering a Bat action, ($1300.) or a less Baer 1911, (starting at $1800 and up.) your going to have a long wait. What you seeing at SSS is what is going on in the rest of the top notch firearm building world. The fact is right now is a super busy time for the best gunsmiths, if you find someone that can do it faster well chances are they are not busy because they can not turn out the quality of work that the more busy gunsmiths can. With that said do you want something done right or done fast?

Reminds me of the old story about British shotguns and double rifles:

"By the time you're old enough to afford one, you probably won't live long enough to receive it."

uj

82boy,

While I agree with you about the Savage accuracy - the 260 isn't an "out of box" Savage. This was built from a donor action, new bolt head, different magazine, new stock, barrel nut and recoil lug, new barrel. Lot's of variables. I think my load is tuned sufficiently (after numerous weeks / months of different powders, bullets, etc) that that part of the equation is finished. Some of the problem, I'm sure, is me, but knowing that I can place 308's or 223', or 243 virtually on top of one another, I'm thinking that the problems are more the gun than the shooter at this point in time.

bout the only thing left to do is to bed the action, but I may want to use this as a switch barrel and I'm hesitant to bed it only to swap barrels and have the bedding slightly different. My other rifles are not bedded, and they're fine.

Guess that's what make this so much "fun"!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mugsie

bout the only thing left to do is to bed the action, but I may want to use this as a switch barrel and I'm hesitant to bed it only to swap barrels and have the bedding slightly different. My other rifles are not bedded, and they're fine.

---

On bedding don't bed the barrel nut, and you will be fine, you can switch barrels on a properly bedded rifle. It is the action that is bedded to the stock, not the barrel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mugsie

82boy,



bout the only thing left to do is to bed the action, but I may want to use this as a switch barrel and I'm hesitant to bed it only to swap barrels and have the bedding slightly different. My other rifles are not bedded, and they're fine.

---

???
bedding and free floating the barrel are universally excepted as the best way to improve accuracy
I can't believe you would send an action out to get it T&Ted and not bed it.
Bed the rifle and then start looking for accuracy problems, but not every rifle will shoot .5 no matter what you do to it, could be the barrel, scope, scope bases. But no matter what you can't blame anything but it not being bedded right now.

I had a time & true job done by SSS and feel that it is very worthwhile. If they have to remove a barrel and reinstall, there is an additional charge. They do excellent work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 82boy

This is the one thing that I don't understand, in the gun world dealing with aftermarket custom parts there will be a long wait no matter where you go. I talked to Hobie Bond (Works at Kelby's.) about a new Atlas action. ($850 bucks) He told me if I want them to build me an action I better order it now if I want to see it by this time next year. A good friend of mine is getting a Sticks drop port panda, (I don't know cost but a Panda is $1200 plus the mod work.) and he doesn't think he will see it this year. Try ordering a Bat action, ($1300.) or a less Baer 1911, (starting at $1800 and up.) your going to have a long wait. What you seeing at SSS is what is going on in the rest of the top notch firearm building world. The fact is right now is a super busy time for the best gunsmiths, if you find someone that can do it faster well chances are they are not busy because they can not turn out the quality of work that the more busy gunsmiths can. With that said do you want something done right or done fast?

---

Generally stay out of this debate and ensuring mess but.... I will agree with you on the "it is typical to have a long lead time for good work" concept and have no problems with it.

It took me more than 18 months to get a fine custom Rolling Block project completed by John King, but he told me up front it would probably be 18-24 months!

If you are going to take six months - tell people six months not six weeks or four months etc..

If a shop has trouble managing work load, production, parts or material supply and/or inventory and (as a result) can't predict how long a project will take they should tell people that too! I know people press for short lead times or definite delivery dates but you shouldn't give out dates and times you can't make happen (lesson I was taught early on in my career - if you impose a deadline on yourself, MAKE IT HAPPEN).

i Had mine T & T by SSS it was smooth process and the process is much more than 38 spec bolt lift kit action is very smooth and well worth $125

Don't know. Never had it done.

btw, I have 2 260s. One shoots in the .3s the other in the .5-.6s range. Guess which rifle shoots better at 600yds?

Fred T&T'd an action for me a few years ago, also installed one of his triggers at the same time. I didn't notice any increase in accuracy but the boly manipulation was much smoother which really helps when shooting a prone rifle.

I'll probably have him do another.

What I don't get is: If the smiths have the amount of work, and work piling up, why don't they hire an extra hand? SSS would get much more work if they got there delivery times in shape, so it would really be an investment.

I agree it should be expected that the work may take a while. My problem is just getting a hold of them. Last time I tried I wasn't looking for a custom part. I just needs a few parts they probably had in stock. After a couple days and 4-5 attemps I ordered them from Midway. I just got new rings and bases and a scope, didn't even bother trying SSS as it's not worth the hassel for stuff like that.

The problem with expansion is that you usually get a short term boost in sales, but the long term overheads will put you out of business. In my area, every gun shop that opted for expansion… expanded right out of business. The same thing happens to gunsmiths.

I've only delt with SSS two times… had to call several times, but I enjoyed the conversation when I got through, and always got what I ordered… and back ordered.

I have had 3 actions T&T'd by SSS. One is a 223AI which is a target/ varmit rig, the other was a F/ open/ tactical rig in 260AI, and my current project is a 6brx, nutless target action. I never felt them or shot them when they weren't T&T'd, however, I can say that when I do my part, I have won matches and individual relays at 300, 600 and 1000 yds in F Class matches (Camp Butner, NC, etc). I compete against $5000 custom rifles (Bat, Barnard, etc.).
I have felt the difference in cycling the action, etc. in a non- T&T'd action and there is no comparison, the SSS treatment is smooth as butter, it "Feels" awesome, etc. I personally wouldn't have it done on a hunting rifle. I have a .250 Sav. Mod. 14 that I hunt deer with, it kills deer very well w/ out the T&T job, however on anything that I plan on shooting for comp. or at little targets far away, I will have it done.
I have been very happy w/ SSS's work, Lisa's recommendations, their products- Stocks, recoil lugs, triggers (EVO and standard), bolt handles, etc. Would I like them to be a little faster turn around on stuff- yes. But they have been great to me, I just plan for the time that whatever proj. Im working on is there and have found the wait was ALWAYS worth it.

I regards to adding more hands in a custom shop, that will usually slow you down initially. Any shop that turns out top notch work can not just hire someone and say have at it. It requires the attention of the craftsman to teach the new hands how things are to be done and then constant oversight for quality control. That takes up a considerable amount of time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brtelec

I regards to adding more hands in a custom shop, that will usually slow you down initially. Any shop that turns out top notch work can not just hire someone and say have at it. It requires the attention of the craftsman to teach the new hands how things are to be done and then constant oversight for quality control. That takes up a considerable amount of time.

---

True, it's still hard to buy anything from someone you can't get a hold of. Personally I've given up, the only way I'll call them now is if I decide to get something T&T. Everything else is easier to buy else where.

Please go to: http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/index.html and read Tech support and questions call Thurs and Friday noon till 8:00 PM, only!

I have never had trouble getting Lisa on the phone as long as I follow their instructions. ???

Bill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bsekf

Please go to: http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/index.html and read Tech support and questions call Thurs and Friday noon till 8:00 PM, only!

I have never had trouble getting Lisa on the phone as long as I follow their instructions. ???

Bill

---

Never called for tech support question, also didn't call on Thurs and Friday figuring they would be harder to get up with. Glad you have good luch with them, and you don't have to worry about me tieing up there phone lines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varget 7-08

What I don't get is: If the smiths have the amount of work, and work piling up, why don't they hire an extra hand? SSS would get much more work if they got there delivery times in shape, so it would really be an investment.

---

Ever consider they don't want to expand or hire on more help because they're perfectly content with the size of the business as-is?

mugsie- it sounds like the general consensus is that T&T won't improve the accuracy, just the feel of the bolt. If it were me, I wouldn't spend the extra money, especially not on a rifle that I'm not 100% happpy with.

You mentioned that it's a donor action, what about the rest of the rifle. barrrel type, length, twist, stock, trigger etc? What are you using for load data?

Mattri,

I agree with you - T&T isn't going to be worth it on a Savage. From the looks of the post, there's some pretty strong opinions on SSS isn't there. Anyway - I'm using a Shileen barrel, a SSS stock, a Calahan recoil lug. I rebuilt the bolt head and swapped magzines out to a 30-06 type (which fits the 308 family of cartridges). Don't remember the load recipe because I'm up stairs and too lazy to walk down to the basement to look up the info - sorry. It is a 140g HPBT SMK using 4350 but don't remember the exact load. I can look it up later if you'd like.

I'll be bedding the rifle this coming week - everyone on here was extremely helpful which convinced me to try it. Doesn't look that hard - hell, if I could make it through Vietnam anything else is a cake walk! I'll let everyone know how it works out.

Later......

mugsie, 1st thank you for your service to our Country. 2nd bed that rifle and it will shoot better. Do the 38 thing and you will be better off on bolt manipulation. I lost a shoot due to time in prone position because of heavy bolt lift. The fella that beat me was faster, he was shooting a Savage that had been T&T'd. I was more accurate, he was a little faster, and that cost me a lot.

If y'all don't send SSS your actions Fred will have more time to spend on mine. ;) ;D

+1 on what JCalhoun said ;D

Quote:

---

"By the time you're old enough to afford one, you probably won't live long enough to receive it."

---

LOL Thanks Jack I needed that.!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mytwo60

Don't know. Never had it done.

btw, I have 2 260s. One shoots in the .3s the other in the .5-.6s range. Guess which rifle shoots better at 600yds?

---

there might be something to this post some times a bullet or load does not settle down till further down range try shooting at 300 or 400 yards and see what it does.

as a small business owner i understand fred s situation and i can understand everyone s frustration but im sure some of his tech calls are a complete waste of his time. lets look at it this way fred and his wife need a certain amount of business weekly in order to keep their doors open and all their vendors paid and other things kept up to date.

ill bet fred works in excess of 10 hours a day most days of the week and still is behind but that is a good thing. i have told many customers i am a one man operation if you want to do business with me sometimes i may take awhile but when i am done your order will be correct and the price will be right.

some potential customers would not do it this way so we both went down the road both happy but i can assure you after 35 years in my business i can do way more for a customer than the huge billion dollar a year conglomerates. i have seen people throw away very expensive pieces of equipment because they couldnt get one inexpensive part or didnt know how to get it or someone to get it for them. that is my job!

i dont need anything done by fred but i can assure you if i sent him a rifle i would have something to use in the meantime and just know it would take awhile. sometimes quality work and service just takes awhile.

bob

I suppose to answer the thread's main question of is it worth have a Savage action Timed and Trued, the main question is what do you plan on doing with the rifle? If you just want a lighter bolt lift, then I suppose the 38 special trick will work. Never done it myself, so I cannot compare the results. However, if you are trying to wring out every bit of accuracy possible out of your savage rifle, then I would send it in.