can i rechamber my 270 to a 270 wsm? its a small shank just wondering if there enough meat in the chamber for it? thanks all
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can i rechamber my 270 to a 270 wsm? its a small shank just wondering if there enough meat in the chamber for it? thanks all
Basically, no. There is not enough meat around the barrel or enough length to totally clean up the old chamber.
17 rem savage
Keep your .270 Winchester, the .270 WSM is shorter and a larger in base diameter. These new 'short" magnums have less case surface area to grip the chamber walls and generate much more bolt thrust. These new cases are harder on the bolt and receiver and some rifles have had damage done by the increased bolt thrust.
Bottom line, the Ackley improved cartridges with even more surface area generate less bolt thrust, and the "new" short magnums have less surface area and generate even more bolt thrust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolt_thrust
http://www.eabco.com/WSM01.htm
http://gunsmithtalk.wordpress.com/20...-thrust-tests/
that kinda what i was thinking. thanks for the reply. i have to other 270's picked this savage up for a song 125 bucks from a friend. looking to do something cool with it. any suggestions?
A 270 Weatherby Magnum reamer will clean up that chamber and would surely be something different.
Of course you'd need to change your bolthead for a magnum sized one.
That said, a 270 Wby in a 22" barrel would be IMO pretty pointless.
yeah not many options .277 bore. lol i guess ill start looking for a new barrel.. id like to find a take off 243 and that would be a easy change.
"These new cases are harder on the bolt and receiver and some rifles have had damage done by the increased bolt thrust."
Can you document this? The WSM actions have thicker locking lugs on the bolt head for sure. I'm not sure if the lug recesses in the receiver are thicker or not but I know they are with the 338 Lapua receivers but that's a whole different animal. And you are correct about the increased bolt thrust. However, if it weren't safe, Savage would have recalled them and I haven't seen or heard of any recalls.
A recall would cost money, and when these rifles started having problems the manufactures were fixing these rifles at no charge. I'm not saying Savage hasn't upgraded their bolt lug design or other manufactures haven't fixed the problem all I'm saying is add a little oil or grease in the chamber and the bolt thrust will be doubled. In the last six months I have purchased two Stevens 200 and a Remington 700. The Remington 700 had one locking lug barely touching meaning the left lug was taking most of the load.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
Below a WSM chambered rifle with a sheared right locking lug.
[img width=600 height=448]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BoltFace-Closeup01-12192009.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=448]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BoltRightLug-Closeup01-12192009.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=448]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BoltRightLug-Closeup02-12192009.jpg[/img]
What I'm saying is simple, if you hot rod a car or hot rod a rifle the lifespan is shortened in relation to the horse power applied.
Below from the H.P. White Ballistic Testing Laboratory and the causes of gun failures
[img width=600 height=223]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Overpressure-boltthrust.jpg[/img]
Oil or grease in the chamber is the same thing as firing a proof pressure test round, now stop and think about bolt thrust and its effects.
so the best way to build a short mag is to start with a short mag action? i really wanna build a switch barrel short mag rifle. i have a 7mm wsm factory barrel and a buddy just sold me a 7mm rsaum barrel he never used. so whats the best action i should be looking for? thanks
So not commenting on the 270 rechamber to 270WSM (don't think it will work) but as far as the "blown up bolt" goes - that isn't a Savage bolt, it looks like a cast bolt, and we have NO IDEA WHY IT FAILED!! Over charge? Obstruction in bore? Wrong cartridge chambered?
The pics mean nothing with the data offered.
1. Ruger doesn't offer a single rifle in any Winchester WSM caliber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric in NC
2. These WSM cartridges do increase bolt thrust.
3.(Update 11/30/05 - Apparently there ARE problems with some of the original turnabout guns. Some manufacturers have now introduced special guns or revised designs for the short magnums... Savage, CZ, and Browning, to name three). See below
http://www.ABC.com/WSM01.HTML
4. The .270 Winchester is already the best non-belted magnum in the world.(Jack O'Connor)
I tried long and hard to find the love for the WSM's but after using and reloading for both the 270WSM and the 7WSM I discovered that their "charms" are lost on me.
I won't own another one.
Now the 270 Wby, that one has me intrigued.
That's not a Ruger bolt. It looks like a Model 70 bolt with the slant on the locking lug for a coned breech. Cast or not means nothing to me. I'm not afraid of castings. Ruger has proven over the years that castings, when done properly, are equal to and in some cases stronger than a forged part. Ruger tested many rifle actions to destruction and found their cast bolts to hold up longer than the other actions' forged bolts. As to bolt thrust, I understand what it is and that a larger head induces more thrust on the bolt lugs so I understand how it works. As Eric in NC said, there's no explanation as to why that bolt failed. There are many possibilities. I also understand the merits of a dry chamber but I doubt that if you have a film of oil in the chamber that it is going to increase the thrust against the bolt enough to make it fail. Will it increase the bolt thrust? Yes. Will it be enough to cause it to fail? I doubt it. If that were the case there would be all kinds of warnings out there and you would hear it everywhere. I'm not making a case in favor of the short magnums. If you don't like them, fine. I don't like them very much either all though I do own one (actually bought it for some sort of future project). I just don't think they're that dangerous but I do like the large shank barrels for them for the increased chamber thickness past the receiver ring. Heck, look at the size of the 378 Weatherby cases and the pressures they operate at and the Weatherby MarkV action isn't much bigger, if any, than other actions. Sure it has more locking lugs but they're so much smaller I doubt the bearing area is much different. Weatherby also uses roughly the same barrel shank and thread size as the Remington 700 which would cause the chamber walls to be thinner than on a Savage. So who knows? I think the WSM and RUM cartridges are the reasonable size limit for these actions though and would definitely not feel good about using a 338 Lapua or any other cartridge head that size in one of these actions.
As far as rechamber there is really not much point.
You could go AI to help with brass life.
I have a Savage 270 and also a Weatherby 270 magnum deluxe.
The 270 with reloader 17 is right on the heals of the 270 weatherby with a lot less powder and less recoil
so I dont even bother reloading for the weatherby.
"The 270 with reloader 17 is right on the heals of the 270 weatherby with a lot less powder and less recoil
so I dont even bother reloading for the weatherby."
Well said. And if you don't reload, the Hornady Superformance lists a 130 grain bullet at 3200fps which is pretty close to a 270WSM.
Would like to see a picture of the rear of the lugs on this bolt and the same area of the receiver. Bet the intact lug is not making any contact.
[img width=600 height=448]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BoltRightLug-Closeup01-12192009.jpg[/img]
Everything you read on the internet isn't true, you can blow a bolt apart with a 243 if you didn't know what you were doing. And have you though a company just doesn't want to chamber their rifles in wsm or wssm or what ever? Ruger offers the RCM cartridges which are the same psi as a wsm and the same case head. I would say Ruger doesn't want to offer those chamberings because they have their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigedp51
At 3.4 COL with a pointy bullet like a SST, you can get 3200 fps with a 24" bbl.
22" knocks you back a good bit like 75-100 FPS.
An out of the book load for the 95 gr barnes TTSX bullet is RL17 at 3700 fps with a 24" bbl.
Load it long and bump it up a bit and you can get 3650+ out of a 22" bbl. Does nasty meat damage though.
See my blow the @$$ end out of a hog post.
Also the 95 gr POI is way off from a 130 gr load but the 95 gr TTSX at 3600 hits like a sledge hammer from He11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
I don't deal in guesswork, internet myths or garbage information and I spent the last 25 years of my working career as a Quality Control Inspector at a military overhaul facility.Quote:
sinman
Everything you read on the internet isn't true, you can blow a bolt apart with a 243 if you didn't know what you were doing. And have you though a company just doesn't want to chamber their rifles in wsm or wssm or what ever? Ruger offers the RCM cartridges which are the same psi as a wsm and the same case head. I would say Ruger doesn't want to offer those chamberings because they have their own.
1. Why would anyone re-chamber a .270 Winchester rifle to gain 100 fps at most in the .270 WSM and add MORE bolt thrust to the rifle.
2. Bolt thrust is a fact of life and everone should "think" about it.
[img width=600 height=154]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oil-lube.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=145]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boltthrust.jpg[/img]
American commercial firearms are only proof pressure tested with a "dry" proof pressure test round and Military small arms are tested with an oiled proof test round to simulate combat conditions. If after proof testing the rifle has had too much lug setback and a increase in headspace the rifle fails military proof testing. The point being here our commercial firearms are NOT built to military standards and all it takes is a little Hoppe's # 9 in the chamber and you have doubled your bolt thrust and have gone past design limits of your rifle. How many times can you fire the equivalent of a proof pressure test round before you start to damage your rifle? I owned two .270 rifles and would never conceder changing over to any of these short fatter magnum cartridge for the sake of a new name.
i do reload. as a matter of fact i just bought some rl17 yesterday for my rsaum. whats a good starting point for a 270 win load? thanks
i was looking at the AI. that may b the way i go. i just have 2 other 270s and want something diff. dont get me wrong i love them. there some of the best guns i own. i guess im bored and need a prodject. lol
What bullet ??
So far I have worked up loads for the 95 gr barnes TTSX, 130 gameking over RL17.
160 nosler partition over RL22.
Also have a reduced 130 gr SST load over H4895.
I keep on seeing all these 270 win barrels on the WTS forum for cheap and dont know why
people are not snagging them. Its a great round.
i like the 130s. ive shot the 95 barnes with h1000. it worked great for yotes.
i really like the 270 just dont need 3 of them lol maybe i do tho.
thanks tammons
The barnes max load off loaddata is 95 gr TTSX over 61 gr of RL17 at 3709 fps with a 24" bbl.
My load tests. All win brass and CCI BR primers.
All tested in the summer at probably 90dF.
1. 95gr TTSX over RL17 at 3.24 COL (second groove).
62 gr was okay but pretty flat primers.
Got brass flow at 63 gr.
At 62 gr should be running at about 3650 in my 21" bbl.
Shoots way high and right of the 2 loads below.
Maybe 4-5" high and 3-4" right.
62gr max for me.
2. 130 gr GK over RL17 at 3.3 col.
Ran a test up to 57 gr. 55 MAX was okay with pretty flat primers.
Got brass flow at 56 and 57.
Backed off to 54.8 and with a 21" bbl shoots 3/8".
Should be running about 3050 with my bbl.
55gr max for me.
3. 160 gr nosler partition over RL22 at 3.4 COL.
Ran loads up to 58 gr of RL22 (IE NOT RL17). Never found a max.
Should be at about 2800 fps.
I think 58 is close to max. Might be able to go up another gr or two, but I am calling it good for now.
Have not chronographed any of these as I have been fooling abound with a 10mm Auto.
For starting loads I would drop down about 5 grains.
man thanks alot. ill b trying some of those out. ive never reloaded any 160s for my 270s but i think im going to try it.
well ive thought about it and think ill order a 260 barrel and start a new project. lol
never shot one but sound like a good one to play with.
thanks again tammons
thanks for all the responds and setting me strait. ill be looking for a large shank mag action for my switch barrel project.
im a new guy here so its nice not to get trashed on for asking a question like some other sites. thanks again.
64.5gr of Magpro behind any number of 130gr bullets get me 3250+ out of my 24" 700 KS. Expect ~100 fps less out of a 22" tube.
All in WW cases sparked by a WLR primer.
Superb cartridge the 270 Winchester!
Ruger actually did chamber the WSM's for a while but I heard that they had to pay some sort of royalty to Winchester/Olin for it and got tired of paying it so they quit. Not sure how true thatis but that's what a I heard. Bigedp51, I understand what you're saying about an oiled chamber or cartridge and understand what bolt thrust is and don't doubt your knowledge. I also know/agree that a larger diameter cartridge puts more thrust against the bolt face. I myself do not do anything to tempt fate either and am always careful with my firearms. However, in the quote you posted it says that an oily chamber can increase the pressure to the bolt face to the equivalent of 70K psi which isn't enough to make the bolt action fail unless it has a major defect in the metal that wasn't found at the factory. All bolt actions are capable of withstanding at least 120K psi and I've read some quotes that claim they can withstand 150K so I wouldn't worry about 70K. Like I said before, Norma loads the Weatherby rounds at around 70-75K, pushing the limits of the what the web of the case can handle. Back to the original question, if you wanted a 270WSM you'd need to have a new barrel made. The existing 270win barrel chamber would have to have too much cut off to rechamber and the taper of the barrel would cause the chamber to be too thin.
efm77
1. The rifle in question is a long action and the WSM cartridge was designed for a short action.
2. A 24 inch or longer barrel would be needed for the .270 WSM, .270 Weatherby etc for a worthwhile velocity gain.
3. Other than converting the .270 to the .270 AI a barrel change and bolt modifications will be required to go to the WSM or any other cartridge.
I damaged two Remington rifles in the 1970s because I took the advice of a coworker and lubed my cartridge cases when fire forming them. Both rifles had bolt setback and increased headspace, and ever since then I have very conscious of the words "bolt thrust" and firearms damage.
You are correct that most commercial rifles have a safety factor of twice the normal chamber pressure built in before a catastrophic failure will occur. BUT this does not mean that increased bolt thrust will not cause bolt setback and increased headspace and damage any rifle at lower chamber pressures.
17 rem savage asked a question about possible conversions of his .270 Winchester with the intent of getting more horsepower. 17 rem savage already has the .270 Winchester a classic hot rodded cartridge with a rated chamber pressure of 52,000 cup or 65,0000 psi and doesn't' really need more horse power. If I had a .270 Winchester with a 24 inch barrel I would concider that as close to perfection as possible.
Before I shoot any of my rifles a wet patch with lighter fluid on it is used in the chamber and barrel to remove any traces oil.
[img width=600 height=398]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilcover.jpg[/img]
[img width=600 height=373]http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilinchamber.jpg[/img]
"1. The rifle in question is a long action and the WSM cartridge was designed for a short action.
2. A 24 inch or longer barrel would be needed for the .270 WSM, .270 Weatherby etc for a worthwhile velocity gain.
3. Other than converting the .270 to the .270 AI a barrel change and bolt modifications will be required to go to the WSM or any other cartridge."
1. I know, although it will work in a long action.
2. I know
3. I know
As I said before I know what bolt thrust is and what increased bolt thrust can do. You don't have to keep explaining it to me. I'm not arguing your point. In fact I agree with you. The only thing I don't agree with is 70k psi being enough to damage the rifle. I have no proof of that, I just think if it would that Norma wouldn't load their ammunition to such high pressures. We're beating a dead horse here so I won't reply to this thread anymore.
The brass cartridge case begins to flow at 70,000 psi.Quote:
Originally Posted by efm77
http://www.longrangehunting.com/arti...k-thrust-2.php
And you wont find a cartridge chamber pressure standard above 65,000 psi.
http://kwk.us/pressures.html
that was my main concern that shorting the chamber was going to weaken the barrel. i see its not a feasible idea. not that im going this route any more. but for future reference is it safe to swap barrels wsm or rsaum and go with a mag bolt head on a small shank action? thanks.
I have a 7 WSM on a stevens long action that works great!! So yes with a barrel swap and a magnum bolt head it will work fine on a small shankQuote:
Originally Posted by 17 rem savage
Savage made plenty of small shank magnum barrels.
Matter of fact they did not introduce large shank barrels until a few years ago.
I have had several magnum small shank setups including a 338 win mag, 375 ruger and a 458 win mag.
Normal magnums are fine. Lapua magnum not okay even on a large shank as I understand it.
I know this is an old post and I said I wouldn't reply anymore but I had a thought today that made me think of this thread. I always get the oil out of my chambers as well before I shoot. But you still have to lube the action/receiver and even though I lube sparaingly, how are you supposed to keep it from transferring to the cartridges which would then transfer right back to the chamber. Seems like a thin film of oil always gets on to the magazine follower in mine which could get on to the cartridges. Maybe it's too small an amount to matter? I dunno. Just came to my mind today as I was in the woods and my mind was wandering while I was waiting for a deer to come into bow range.