Take a stab at what you think happened here.....

Went out and shot some rounds through the 6.5 WSM, these were the first 4 through the gun at 100 yards. The last time I shot it, it was shooting in the .3's. The rifle was not disassembled or cleaned, and no bolts, barrel nuts, or screws were loose. The barrel and tang are free floated. The nut behind the trigger was shooting well, the rifle was not. All 4 loads were exactly the same. Point of aim was the same for all 4 rounds. Turrets were not adjusted between rounds. The next 4 went into .3 as they should. I know why they hit where they hit. Care to guess why?
http://i1276.photobucket.com/albums/...psg0yet4aa.jpg

Your rifle is tired of spitting up at 100. It is trying to tell you it wants to go long!:cool:

LOL!
You have inside information. Keep it under your hat and we'll see if anyone can guess.

And yes, it does want to stretch its legs. Im planning on shooting Monday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hotolds442

The nut behind the trigger was shooting well, the rifle was not.

---

Well that knocks out a DFO...:cool:
Did your scope let go?

I would say it just needed to clear its throat

I always blame the wind.

Even on clear, calm days.

Scope is fine.
Throat was fine.
Wind was not a factor. Although it certainly appears I was shooting the updraft.
All DFO's SHOULD be knocked out!

Ya know, what you show in that photo is the reason I stopped de-coppering my barrels. After shooting I remove the carbon and a small amount of the copper but I don't give them a full de-coppering.

Even with a cold, fouled bore most of my rifles will do what you show with a known accurate load.
As soon as they warm up a bit and gather some foul, they're back on mark. Barring anything obvious, I think I'd make note of this and call it "one of those things" - its the character or personality of that barrel.
A perfect example of how they can be just like women. Difficult to deal with when cold. Once warmed up, they perform fine.

Nope, not that either. Rifle prints within .25 on the first shot cold bore.
There is a reason these first 4 rounds printed where they did.

so many things can cause this...you have ruled out all the simple things so now it leaves the complicated things like....

bullet weld
neck tension
powder charge
seating depth
cases sized to much...what really gets me is how much your point of impact climbed with each shot...my first thought was the reticle broke loose.

Bullet weld and neck tension should be the same across all 4 loads, like I mentioned, all 4 loads were identical in every way.
The answer is really simple, and I would never have guessed this to be the end result.

if its none of the above the only other thing ive seen cause that was a small rock stuck between the barrel and the stock.

im real interested to hear what was causing this.

No rocks.
I'll share the answer later after a few more have checked in. Someone might even figure it out before then.

How were the groups shot? Was the first one off a Bi-pod or lead sled while the others are off of a standard rest? Was the barrel being rested on the front rest?

Wind couldnt be causing that much verticle at 100 yds for sure.
My (guess) would be its bedding related.

What was the time interval and the lighting conditions between shots 1 and 4?

Bill

All 4 were shot from the bags, stock firmly bedded in sand. There was no barrel contact with anything except the barrel nut and action threads. There was about 4 minutes between shot 1 and 4, lighting was partly cloudy, sun directly overhead....
The rifle is sighted 1" high at 100, and hits there always. Except for this time. Keep guessing......

Parallax

I have seen this before. Your rifle is "hainted". Best cure is to sacrifice a chicken on the next full moon and put some of the blood on the barrel. Keep the dry blood on the barrel till the next full moon. That will "unhaint" it. However, you really need to find out how it got "hainted" to start with. You could go through a lot of chickens in the future if you don't.

Nah, no hainting going on. Parallax was not it either.

The stock has a crack? Or the bullets were hitting a wind flag or something.

Negative

WAY to many beers the night before????

Was the case cleaning or case prep different for the 1st 4 rounds than the subsequent rounds?

Had the 1st 4 rounds been sitting around for months and subsequent rounds reloaded within days of range time.

OK I've narowed it down,,it's something to do with the ammo for sure because you've posted in the ammo reloading section LOL. Different lots of powder or bullets? Ahh different head stamp brass.

Horse fly on target and you shot at it, missed, it flew up a little, you shot again, missed, fly returned but a little higher, you shot again, missed, fly returned higher yet again, 4th shot you got him?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geo_Erudite

Horse fly on target and you shot at it, missed, it flew up a little, you shot again, missed, fly returned but a little higher, you shot again, missed, fly returned higher yet again, 4th shot you got him?

---

lol! No. Point of AIM didn't change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

WAY to many beers the night before????

---

I could probably use that as an excuse for losing a match, but no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rbp75503

Was the case cleaning or case prep different for the 1st 4 rounds than the subsequent rounds?

Had the 1st 4 rounds been sitting around for months and subsequent rounds reloaded within days of range time.

---

All of the rounds were loaded the same day, case prep was the same.

Bullets were going so fast the jackets were ripped off and the only thing that hit the target was the core! :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanSavage

OK I've narowed it down,,it's something to do with the ammo for sure because you've posted in the ammo reloading section LOL. Different lots of powder or bullets? Ahh different head stamp brass.

---

Powder lot did not change, bullets from the same factory box. Brass was all Winchester stamped, weight within .2 grains. You might be the closest guess yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GaryB

Bullets were going so fast the jackets were ripped off and the only thing that hit the target was the core! :o

---

I wish I could get it to push 140's that fast. No.

This is what happens in my rifle when I try to light a heavy load of H-1000 with a CCI-200 Large Rifle Primer. As the chamber warmed up, ignition got better, but nowhere near what the CCI-250 Magnum primers do on a regular basis.
Look back through all the replies, there are some very good guesses and it opens your eyes to just how many things can go wrong and give poor results, and if I didn't already know the answer would have been checking each and every one. Well almost.

All that is different lot of primer's,,, woohooo!

Interesting indeed!

Quote:

---

it opens your eyes to just how many things can go wrong

---

Oh yeah. That Murphy guy was an optimist.

If case prep was same that means its nothing to do with the brass... bullets all the same...powder the same... maybe seating depth or has someone said that already? Maybe different primer/lot of primers like DanSavage mentioned? Or is it something external to the mechanicals; with a vertical like that could be breath control/not firing during natural respiratory pause

Oh hell just tell us already

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarrelNuts

If case prep was same that means its nothing to do with the brass... bullets all the same...powder the same... maybe seating depth or has someone said that already? Maybe different primer/lot of primers like DanSavage mentioned? Or is it something external to the mechanicals; with a vertical like that could be breath control/not firing during natural respiratory pause

Oh hell just tell us already

---

He said it was the cci 200 primer vs. the loads normal cci 250.
Thanks for sharing Olds,, good information for future reference in one's reloading journey .

I missed that somehow... all it takes is one little thing out of about 100 different variables to monkey up the works and leave you scratching your head wondering which of the 100 it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hotolds442

This is what happens in my rifle when I try to light a heavy load of H-1000 with a CCI-200 Large Rifle Primer. As the chamber warmed up, ignition got better, but nowhere near what the CCI-250 Magnum primers do on a regular basis.
Look back through all the replies, there are some very good guesses and it opens your eyes to just how many things can go wrong and give poor results, and if I didn't already know the answer would have been checking each and every one. Well almost.

---

WOW!!!

Ive done a ton of primer testing in my 260 and 300wm because i read so much on primers and primer seating and the difference in primer brands,cup hardness hottest and coldest ect and can say that ive seen vertical spread but never that bad.
What was the temp when you fired those rounds?

Also youve been talking to Dean havent you lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LongRange

WOW!!!

Ive done a ton of primer testing in my 260 and 300wm because i read so much on primers and primer seating and the difference in primer brands,cup hardness hottest and coldest ect and can say that ive seen vertical spread but never that bad.
What was the temp when you fired those rounds?

Also youve been talking to Dean havent you lol!

---

Temperature was around 60 degrees, and Dean's suggestion was responsible for this little experiment. Hardly the outcome I expected though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarrelNuts

If case prep was same that means its nothing to do with the brass... bullets all the same...powder the same... maybe seating depth or has someone said that already? Maybe different primer/lot of primers like DanSavage mentioned? Or is it something external to the mechanicals; with a vertical like that could be breath control/not firing during natural respiratory pause

Oh hell just tell us already

---

If it were something like breath control or trigger control you'd expect the horizontal would be wider than the vertical, or that's what I've seen with newbs learning to control a rifle for precision. The horizontal spread was .295", about average for the rifle. When I first shot the string, I had forgotten about the primer swap, and had a real WTF moment. A loose reticle would have been off in both axis, horizontal and vertical. I ran a card between barrel and stock, checked all the screws and bolts, did many of the things suggested here. I thought about it for quite a while, frustration had set in, I even shot my 243AI to make sure it wasn't me although I felt good about shot placement on each and every shot. And then I noticed the tag on the MTM box. Bold letters. CCI-200.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hotolds442

Temperature was around 60 degrees, and Dean's suggestion was responsible for this little experiment. Hardly the outcome I expected though.

---

I knew he was behind this.

Like i said i did a lot of primer testing a few years ago and learned a lot from it but never seen that much vertical....this should be a sticky so ppl can see how much of an effect primers have.

Well they say,,use the most gentle primer that will reliably ignite the powder. So I guess you won't be sticking with the 200's lol.

Hotolds442,

How long did the round dwell in the chamber before shooting? In your opinion, is it the powder that is changing it's burn rate with temperature or the primer that is changing?

I seem to have a similar problem with IMR30301 in my 223, and figured it was the powder charge. Never considered the CCI400 primer, but did recently switch to WSR primers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DanSavage

Well they say,,use the most gentle primer that will reliably ignite the powder. So I guess you won't be sticking with the 200's lol.

---

I shoot CCI pretty much exclusively, using the old school method of magnum primers in magnums and standard primers in non-magnums with a substitution of magnum primers in non-magnums when using ball powder. This is the first time I've experimented and probably won't try it again. The WSM's will see a steady diet of CCI-250's in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Texas10

Hotolds442,

How long did the round dwell in the chamber before shooting? In your opinion, is it the powder that is changing it's burn rate with temperature or the primer that is changing?

I seem to have a similar problem with IMR30301 in my 223, and figured it was the powder charge. Never considered the CCI400 primer, but did recently switch to WSR primers.

---

The rounds were in the chamber for less than 30 seconds each. Just guessing, I'd say that the chamber temperature increased with each shot, and that temperature transferred to the powder enough to change the ignition characteristics of each progressive round, but again, that's just speculation. I wish I had a pressure trace I'd do this test again. There's a used one for sale locally at a good price but right now I just can't justify it.

I could see that primers could affect the way the powder column burns, but I not really buying into the idea that the powder temperature is that sensitive to get the optimum results. Typically ignition issues happen at low temperatures, especially with ball powder. If the ambient temperature was in the 60's, I would imagine the barrel had to be about 90-100 degrees after 4 shots. I just can't see an additional 30-40 degrees in this temperature range affecting the velocity that much.
Proof positive would be if you ran this test again and recorded the temperature of the chamber after each shot until the group returned, while chronographing. Or, do the test again on a very hot day and see if it grouped right off the bat.
I've had stranger things happen.....

Wow! Very interesting thread. I wouldn't have imagined that much of a difference. Interesting test Dan. Deano will probably chime in sooner or later, I wonder if he had anything similar to this. I remember the thread the other day when this was brought up. Ill be keeping up with this one.
Scooter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hotolds442

There's a used one for sale locally at a good price but right now I just can't justify it.

---

Don't let it get away, you'll regret it:cool: