Serious accuracy problems... where to start?

Well picked up an old savage 110 in 243 about 6 months ago. Got it at the local gun shop for $200 and thought I got a screaming deal especially considering the outstanding physical condition. Finally got around to picking up a scope for it (4-12x44 weaver 40/44 series) and took it to the range yesterday with a couple boxes of factory loaded winchester 100 grain soft points. Im just waiting on a couple small tools to be able to load for it. I started shooting 3 shot groups and ended up shooting some 5 shot groups after i got it on paper all at 100 yards. It is literally shooting 4 inch 3 shot groups and 5 inch 5 shot groups. Ive never had a gun shoot anywhere near that poorly. Ive got several savages and they are great shooting guns as a matter of fact my model 12 routinely shoots 1/4 to 1/2 inch at 100 yards. It seems like the first shot always goes several inches high and about an inch left, the next 2 shots will be almost bullseye and shot 4 and 5 will go way low right. Now I didnt expect it to shoot like my pillar bedded heavy barrel model 12 but my sporter barreled model 110 270 will shoot factory ammo at an inch to inch and a half. This 243 is a sporter barrel gun. And it is an older gun with the straight screwdriver looking bolt that attaches the bolt handle. Its also a long action but part of the action is not milled out making basically a plug that allows it to be chambered for short action rounds. Im sure some of you guys know that Im talking about. It is in a wood stock with no pillars. It also has a raised bump at the end of the barrel channel that applies pressure to the barrel like a ruger m77 is set up. So where would you guys start with this? Ive never pillar bedded, glass bedded, opened up barrel channels or anything of the sort but I am pretty handy and Im sure I could do it. Do you think bedding it and floating the barrel would be worth trying? Or does accuracy that poor mean the barrel is shot out? I guess just trying to figure out where to even start with it. Or am I just better off to ditch the gun? Thanks

A few ideas,

The older .243's had a fairly slow twist. The 100's might be too heavy for it.

The barrel may be pitted or grungy.

The action screws should be snug but not overly tight.

Bad scope.

Operator errors, how stable and consistent are your position and techniques?

If you're confident it's not you, the easiest things to start with are switching ammo and making sure the bases, rings, and action screws aren't loose.

I have the same rifle, I couldn't get it to shoot real well until I bedded the action, free floated the barrel and rear tang, lightened the trigger and most of all hand loaded light bullets like the 58 gr. through 75gr. finding an accuracy node. I say keep it and play with it!

If all fails rebarrel it yourself with a quality match barrel, if you still want .243 get a 1 and 8 twist if you want to shoot 100 grainers, and you will have a really superb shooter.

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Originally Posted by yotehtr1

Well picked up an old savage 110 in 243 about 6 months ago. Got it at the local gun shop for $200 and thought I got a screaming deal especially considering the outstanding physical condition. Finally got around to picking up a scope for it (4-12x44 weaver 40/44 series) and took it to the range yesterday with a couple boxes of factory loaded winchester 100 grain soft points. Im just waiting on a couple small tools to be able to load for it. I started shooting 3 shot groups and ended up shooting some 5 shot groups after i got it on paper all at 100 yards. It is literally shooting 4 inch 3 shot groups and 5 inch 5 shot groups. Ive never had a gun shoot anywhere near that poorly. Ive got several savages and they are great shooting guns as a matter of fact my model 12 routinely shoots 1/4 to 1/2 inch at 100 yards. It seems like the first shot always goes several inches high and about an inch left, the next 2 shots will be almost bullseye and shot 4 and 5 will go way low right. Now I didnt expect it to shoot like my pillar bedded heavy barrel model 12 but my sporter barreled model 110 270 will shoot factory ammo at an inch to inch and a half. This 243 is a sporter barrel gun. And it is an older gun with the straight screwdriver looking bolt that attaches the bolt handle. Its also a long action but part of the action is not milled out making basically a plug that allows it to be chambered for short action rounds. Im sure some of you guys know that Im talking about. It is in a wood stock with no pillars. It also has a raised bump at the end of the barrel channel that applies pressure to the barrel like a ruger m77 is set up. So where would you guys start with this? Ive never pillar bedded, glass bedded, opened up barrel channels or anything of the sort but I am pretty handy and Im sure I could do it. Do you think bedding it and floating the barrel would be worth trying? Or does accuracy that poor mean the barrel is shot out? I guess just trying to figure out where to even start with it. Or am I just better off to ditch the gun? Thanks

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make sure you check bases and rings first. Make sure they are snagged nicely. Also try more than one brand ammo and weight of bullet. And make sure the barrel is clean. Then if that doe not work. Free float barrel. And if that finally does not work... have action bedded. You could be surprised how rings and bases and ammo could effect group size.

Thanks guys! It's a 1 in 10 twist. Is that to slow for 100 grain? I will double check the scope rings and bases but I just torqued them so I'm fairly certain they are ok. I planned on using this as a deer rifle so any idea on lighter bullets to try that would still be effective on deer? It may need bedding work but worth trying another bullet first i just would have never guessed a different bullet would affect accuracy so much.

I think the newer .243's are 1-9.5 twist. The .243 Axis a buddy of mine has loves the 105gr Amax's.

Before you tear your hair out change the scope to a known good one as the 40/44 are ok but I would switch to make sure you didn't get a bad one. If it wont shoot scrub the bore with jb bore compound and the chamber because there could be a carbon ring started from the original owner. We don't know if he ever cleaned it . I would free float it and if it doesn't help you can always add epoxy and make a new pressure point down the road.

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Originally Posted by jonbearman

Before you tear your hair out change the scope to a known good one as the 40/44 are ok but I would switch to make sure you didn't get a bad one. If it wont shoot scrub the bore with jb bore compound and the chamber because there could be a carbon ring started from the original owner. We don't know if he ever cleaned it . I would free float it and if it doesn't help you can always add epoxy and make a new pressure point down the road.

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Sounds like a good plan. I have a leupold on my other 110 I can borrow that I know is a good scope. Never used JB before is that a copper solvent?

Jb is a fine lapping compound for bore cleaning.

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Originally Posted by Maztech89

Jb is a fine lapping compound for bore cleaning.

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Oh ok! Thankss!

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Originally Posted by yotehtr1

Thanks guys! It's a 1 in 10 twist.Is that to slow for 100 grain?

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If it makes round holes you should be good. If the holes are oblong then that is definitely the issue.

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Originally Posted by Jamie

If it makes round holes you should be good. If the holes are oblong then that is definitely the issue.

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No they didn't go through sideways. Nice little round holes. I pulled the scope and rings and bases and stock last night. Gonna go through and re torque everything. Where is a good starting point for torquing the action screws on a wood stock with no bedding?

It could be that the bullets are too far away from the lands. Once you start reloading you can seat them longer and that may improve your groups. Then again the problem could lie somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by olddav

It could be that the bullets are too far away from the lands. Once you start reloading you can seat them longer and that may improve your groups. Then again the problem could lie somewhere else.

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I have a modified case for hornady oal tool coming should hAve it in a few days. Will definitely give that a try when working up loads thanks

I usually put the action screws at a little more than hand tight.

Free float the barrel and the tang

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Originally Posted by seanhagerty

Free float the barrel and the tang

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I actually think I'm gonna go ahead and pillar and glass bed it along with floating the barrel and tang. May as well just go ahead and do it all at once. Working on locating and gathering stuff up now

Take a few items to the range with you and try a few simple tests.
1. Exchange the scope. Make sure its not loose and make sure the rings are pushed all the way forward on the rail before you tighten it down.
2. Check the end of the barrel, make sure someone didn't jam it into the ground or hit something to bur the crown where the bullet exits. Recessed crowns help but its not foolproof.
3. Check the barrel twist and made sure your shooting bullets in the ballpark of your twist rate. an over/under spun bullet will destabilize pretty fast.
The rest I think you already discussed in your original post. Even with a barrel shot out, I have never seen 5 inch groups at 100 yards except on old service rifles.

Use a good copper remover like Montana Extreme to see if you have a lot of copper build up in that older barrel. It also may need a good cleaning with one of the carbon removing solutions.

Sounds like you've got a DIY project going. 1st thing I'd do is have the bbl. bore scoped by a competent Smith. If all is good check the crown and lap if necessary. Then inspect the bump in the fore-end to see if the bbl returns to the exact same position each time its fired. You can check this by putting a piece of match book cover between the bbl. & fore-end where the "bump" is located. It will shoot high of POA but if groups tighten you're on the right track. You could then free float the barrel and tune your load to the new harmonics............ Shooting off a rest the older stocks had a lot of flex in the fore-end. For top accuracy you may want to go with a stock that fits your weight requirement yet gives more rigidity.

Try an 85g sierra gameking my 243 has a 10 twist and will shoot 1/2 in if I do my part, excellent bullet and will drop these small southern deer with authority.

Like GaCop said first make sure it is not fouled with any old copper. Even if you have to leave a solvent in the barrel overnight or for a few hours.
Check the crown with a jeweler's loupe.
That gun should shoot ok with the barrel touching the front pressure point in the stock. May want to play with that a little(try shims for effect)

I had the same exact issue on an old(1980) 110E J .243.
Tried everything above and different scopes, rings, bullet weights, brands etc., etc.
Finally stuck it in the 4 jaw, cut off a little barrel and put a 11 deg. crown, sanded out the fore end pressure point and epoxyed(JB Weld)bedded the action and free floated the barrel. Shoots ok now.

I had a .243 that didn't shoot so well, I cut the barrel to 18" and recrowned it and it will shoot the 95 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips or the 85 grain Sierra Game King HPs into less than 1/2" at 100 yards on a fairly regular basis and I have shot a few groups at 200 yards that were less than 3/4".

If an action isn't pillar bedded I usually torque the action screws to 35 inch pounds for a starting point.

I haven't found a load for the 100gr bullets, but my vanguard s2 shoots the sierra 85gr SGK's real well. The 100's were OK, but not great.

An article on getting the torque right.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/

I have a similar rifle that I got in '67. Over the years I've shot about every 243 bullet made. The wt range that it seems to like best is 70-80. It loves the Barnes 72 gr Varminater and the 85 gr TSX.

Lighter bullets would be where I'd start. I had a .243 that just loved the 75gr Remington bullets.

Any updates on a cure for your problem? I know it's hunting season and shooting time is a scarce thing. Just wondering.

I have gone through the frustration on a rimfire, but it is no different as to narrowing down the possible issues. It is tedious, but you will get to the answer.

Examine crown.

1. Thorough cleaning, then shoot. See if there is marked improvement.
2. Swap out mounts and put back on the same scope. No need to zero it in, just take ten shots and see the spread.
3. Same original mounts and swap scope. Do as #2.
4. Examine your targets for stringing in any direction. If present, this would indicate a pillaring and bedding job.
5. If all above fails, I would then play with the ammo selection.