Question about Shaw Barrels

I have two .308 Shaw barrels. One I put on an Axis and the other on a Model 10 (older one, internal box mag, staggered feed, 4.27screw spacing). Both are bedded into Boyd's stocks with JB weld.

Neither rifle is shooting up to, what I believe should be, its potential. 175's, 168's and even 190's have been tried. All were seated to the standard 2.8" COAL. Mind you, when I installed the barrels, I set the headspace tight. I think most of us do this anyway.

I believe I know what the deal is but I want other opinions. I checked the distance to the Lands in front of the chamber. I seated a bullet just barely into the case and inserted it into the chamber. Then I closed the bolt and let the bullet seat touching the lands. the OAL was around 2.94. So my bullets have been jumping over a tenth of an inch to get into the rifling. I don't mind seating the bullets long, but in the Model 10, I only have so much room in the magazine box. I haven't shot them yet with the bullets seated out that long.

Has anyone else seen this kind of excessive Leade in Shaw Barrels?

Well, i guess the big question here is exactly what are you expectations? I have one shaw barrel in 260 remington and its a 3/4 to 1 minute barrel for me.. I will shoot a 5 shot group down around a half minute here an there but on 10 and 20 shot strings its gonna shoot 1 MOA pretty much.

As far as the OAL question, I think you definitely need to push them out closer to the lands and see how it does.

Good luck with it and keep us posted....

My expectations are to have each gun shoot half minute or better. The axis is doing about a half inch... some of the time. The 10 is shooting about an inch or just over with 168's and 175's. With the 190's at two hundred yards, I was getting three inches. You could say I was slightly disappointed.

That OAL of 2.94 is exactly what my 308 X-Caliber barrel measures with the 175 TMK's... My rifle likes those at .025 off... I single load anyway so mag length doesn't bother me...

My Shaw 308 loves 125 and 150 B-tips, and 130 Speer hollow points.

I shot some 130 grain Hornady SP's through mine, they weren't that accurate either.

What powder/powder charge weight/primer/brass are you using? How many firings on the brass? Where all of those firings from the same rifle. What is you neck RO/bullet RO?

Brass was LC Match with one previous firing on it, full length resized. Powder was AA2460 at 42 grains (41 grains with the 190's). Primer was CCI LR. I did not measure runout on Bullet or case neck. bullets 168's and 190's were older HPBT, I believe Sierras. The 175'swere newer made Sierra HPBT.

You said " the standard 2.8" OAL".... What makes that the standard? Do you know what these battens individual throats are? I doubt the jump would be the same between them. What is you actual jump to lands?

SAAMI standard COAL. That means my rifle's jump to the lands would be over 1/10 of an inch.

Have you tried Varget and IMR4064 with the heavier bullets? I've also had good luck with w748 and BLc2.

The Shaw barrels do copper up fairly easily but many are very accurate. You may want to try a different powder. If you like accurate powders try 2520 or 4064. There is a good load somewhere around 2650 with the 168's.

Really doesn't sound too bad to me.

There's a few things it could be. Bedding, loads, scope, crown...If you're getting a half inch out of the .223 then it certainly is not the trigger - puller. My advice would be to find a box of Federal 168gr GMM and a scope you trust. If you can get 5 into an inch with that set-up then nothing is seriously wrong with the gun and work more on ammo. If you can't, then start looking at mechanical issues.

Advice worth the cost. [emoji1]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The essence of the question was, Has anyone else seen this much leade in the chambers of Shaw barrels. As I said, COAL to the lands is 2.94, longer than I thought it should have been.

My Shaw .308 has a slightly shorter throat, and it shoot's best at .005 off the rifling with Hornady 168 Match bullet's and a low dose of Reloder 15 in Lapaua brass.

Thanks, Dan.

I don't know that it's that rare to have that kind of jump from SAMMI length to the lands unless you specify different with the barrel chambering.

Seat the bullets to close the distance to the lands, and see if the groups come together. Worry about mag length later, get it grouping good first. If you can't pull the groups together with seating depth, reboot the recipe.

Keep chasing it. I agree it should shoot better.

Thanks Burr.

I've had really good luck with 42.8 grains of RL-15 in LC cases with 175gr SMK's and BR-2 primers. I've also had really good luck with 42.8 grains of 4064 in commercial cases, 168gr SMK's and Remington 9-1/2 primers seated to 2.812", but that is in three different M14's with match barrels. I'm looking forward to finishing my Savage 110 Long action in 308. Seating longer than mag length won't be a problem.

Tony.

41.5 of imr 4064 and 175smks std oal has worked for me

I loaded several sets of five rounds to fire for group. Half were loaded at 2.8 CAOL and half were loaded at 2.9 CAOL. Using 4064, I started at 42 grains and went up in half grain incumbents to 43.5 grains. So, four different loads were fired for each over all length. It seems like the rifle liked the longer loads, but each had its own eccentricity. 42 grains at 2.9 was the best group. Everything but the lowest powder charge gave me a sticky bolt. I also got slightly flattened primers and a bit of cratering. That was a tough one to figure out. I did figure it out though. I was using CBC (Magtech) brass. That brass is heavier and thicker than just about any other commercial type. So each light to medium load was giving me medium to hot pressures. Jeez! No wonder my groups were erratic.

OK, now to follow up, I have loaded another batch of rounds, still using the 2.9" COAL, but starting the powder charge at 41.4, increasing by two tenths of a grain up to 42 grains. We'll see soon how this works out. I'll post pictures of the rifle and the last set of targets in a bit.

I am no expert on handloading, though I have been able to get all my rifles to shoot at or better than .5 moa.

Personally, I always start just off the lands and search for loads first. I generally start in the middle of the published powder range, shoot 3-4 and then up it .5 grains and shot another 3-4. If a 2 shot group is bad, I move on to the next higher charge without even bothering to fire the 3rd or 4th. Once I get a good group at a specific weight I load 3-4 different loads around that load in .2 grain increments and see if they tighten up. Finally, I play around with different COAL's. I find it easiest to just load a couple dozen or so long, take them to the range and experiment by trying different seating depths. I always use a Lee hand held press for this and without fail I find a good .25 to .50 load.

Well, if this doesn't work, I try a different powder. But I really don't play with seating depth before getting something close to .5 MOA groups.

Here are some pictures of the rifle and range results as described above. As you can tell from the background, I have a two year old (She loves my rifles!). The best of all the groups was the 2.9" OAL at 42 grains of powder. As I said before, I have backed down a bit in powder charge for the next lot and will work in two tenths increments. I will not be satisfied until I get .5 MOA groups every time. I would be happy to get them all clover leafed like the right half of the group in the last pic. I think I can do it. One other note about this range trip, I forgot my rear bag, so I was shooting off the bipod holding the rear of the stock against my shoulder in the cup of my support hand.

The blemish on the barrel is just some bedding compound I had stuck to my fingers. I'll get some steel wool after it shortly.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/IV75hyj.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mUqILHE.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/mu6KcZs.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OyGdcBW.jpg[/IMG]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddiesindian

41.5 of imr 4064 and 175smks std oal has worked for me

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And lot's of other 308 shooters as well. A classic load for sure.

yew plucker,Don't think about SAAMI specs with an aftermarket barrel. Those specs are to insure that factory ammo will chamber in any commercial produced rifle chamber. Do yourself a favor and buy a measuring tool like the Hornady OAL gauge,and find out exactly what the OAL to your lands are for every bullet you plan on loading with.
Finding the perfect load for your barrel takes some time usually,you have to find the exact bullet-powder-seating depth that each barrel likes. Shaw barrels shoot good,I have a few of them,and they shoot right with my Shilen,McGowen,and other aftermarket barrels.
Having a blind magazine does have it's problems,but usually you can find something the barrel likes and still remain within the magazine limits. My old 110 staggered feed action that I built my 6.5-06 with does well jumping my Berger 140 VLD's .115" off the lands,it still shoots in the .3-.4" range with my loads.

Txhillbilly, thanks for that advice.

To the range again I went. This time I had four sets of five each loaded at 2.9 CAOL. I will play with seating depth more later. Right now the bullets are touching the lands.

I loaded four sets at each of the following powder charges, again using 4064: 41.4, 41.6, 41.8, and 42 grains. The pictures below show the results. I did get two half inch groups. I'm still not satisfied, but we're getting there.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zk9B1Bk.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ThsrIQs.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ZAseslW.jpg[/IMG]

I think I would go with the one that had the least vertical stringing, assuming you had a good rest, then play with seating depth.

The 41.6 and 41.8 groups are so close that I want to try a few groups 41.7, then play with seating. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna leave them seated out long, but back them off the lands a few of thousandths.

All groups were fired off a bipod with a rear bag.

I would also recommend using sand bags for front rest when doing load development. Tripods are handy in the field, but not the best for accuracy off a bench. If you must use them, you might also try putting a soft pad between the feet and bench.

Thanks for that advice, Foxx.

At 41.7 gr of 4064, it was all over the place again. I'm gonna back off to 41 gr and work up in 1/10th grain increments and we'll see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yew plucker

At 41.7 gr of 4064, it was all over the place again. I'm gonna back off to 41 gr and work up in 1/10th grain increments and we'll see.

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I can't believe I had a factory varmint 10fp barrel that liked 44 grain's of IMR 4064. The coal was short, like 2.780, I believe it was a commpresed load.

The Shilen Select match .308 barrel I still have likes 41.4- 41.5 4064 with 168's and 178's.

My advise is to start out using brand new Lapua Palma .308 brass that use's small rifle primer's, it will last longer.

A couple of aspect here. 3/10 a grain is of no significance, so don't look for the variation in 1/10 powder charges (small 17 and 22s aside)

I have an old RCBS Junior press, I just keep it in the car with a C clamp. It goes to the range with me. I have one group of no less that 15 seated to a trial depth.

The rest are deliberately left long. I then use the press and the bullet seater die to tune things as they seem to come together or not. I carry the completion seater as I can see the adjustment.

I also have a bullet ogvie compartor and that is my bench mark, not the tip. Tips vary a lot, Ogive does vary but closer.
I don't bother to zero it (1 inch length), I just list in my books Ogive and its a given they are actually 1 inch longer than real. Its the difference more or less you want.

.005 is the smallest change. Ogive has enough variation its not going to change getting it any closer than that. Some will be a hair less and some a hair more but .001 does not make it work best or not.

My take on loads is that I start 5/10 grain above the minimum out of my two ref books (Sierra and Hornady) 15 of that, then adjust up 5/10, another 15 etc.

There should be an accurate node down in the lower end. I assume if its the lowest load the first one will be pretty good and then start to get worse.

There also should be another one at the upper end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RC20

A couple of aspect here. 3/10 a grain is of no significance, so don't look for the variation in 1/10 powder charges (small 17 and 22s aside)

I have an old RCBS Junior press, I just keep it in the car with a C clamp. It goes to the range with me. I have one group of no less that 15 seated to a trial depth.

The rest are deliberately left long. I then use the press and the bullet seater die to tune things as they seem to come together or not. I carry the completion seater as I can see the adjustment.

I also have a bullet ogvie compartor and that is my bench mark, not the tip. Tips vary a lot, Ogive does vary but closer.
I don't bother to zero it (1 inch length), I just list in my books Ogive and its a given they are actually 1 inch longer than real. Its the difference more or less you want.

.005 is the smallest change. Ogive has enough variation its not going to change getting it any closer than that. Some will be a hair less and some a hair more but .001 does not make it work best or not.

My take on loads is that I start 5/10 grain above the minimum out of my two ref books (Sierra and Hornady) 15 of that, then adjust up 5/10, another 15 etc.

There should be an accurate node down in the lower end. I assume if its the lowest load the first one will be pretty good and then start to get worse.

There also should be another one at the upper end.

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My best groups were at 41.6 and 41.8 of 4064. The length was 2.860 if I recall correctly. I have a few loaded rounds left and can try a few out touching the lands. That was a 2.94 COAL. I don't have an ogive comparator. I'll tell ya what I do see though, is that thee sierra bullets are MUCH more consistent than they were twenty three years ago when I started doing this. Bullet weights used to vary two or there grains above or below the target weight. Now that variance is measured in tenths of a grain. I am seeing the same kind of precision in bullet length also.

I'll try a few out to the longest length chamberable and see what that does. Will have to feed them singly, but so what?

I finally got the thing to shoot like I thought it should. I backed the load down to 40.5 grains and worked up, built up 5 rounds of each increasing at two tenths grain increments. So, 40.5, 40.7, 40.9 and 41.1 were the choices. The 40.5 grain load shot the best by far with three of the five clover leafed and two fliers which I called, giving me a half inch group over all. I was out of ammo for that range session. I need to confirm one more time before I call it good. But I believe the 40.5 grains of 4064 will give me the sub half inch groups I have been chasing.

So it looks like the Shaw barrel may not have been a such a bad investment after all.

To put it in perspective, my Shilen 06 barrel is listed as 3.220 for the COL when up to the lands it is actually 3.290.

If you want max accuracy in any gun that's the placed to start.

You then have to live with max accuracy or max mag length or see if it will shoot good from further back.

Berger on the VLDs say it can be as much as ,150 off the lands to shoot good.

Rifles are made by the mass average (and save, aka SAMMI) and if you want a custom gun then you have to pay for it.

My barrel is very tight as well so that is not a factor in this.

I bought mine knowing this and single load.