Tuning for accuracy

I've been trying to get what I consider worthy accuracy from my 116AC 30-06 for a few weeks now. Factory ammo never lives up to my expectations, so I hand load just about everything. At 100 yards, the best I can get this rifle to shoot is 1 3/8" off the bench. I've noticed that it prefers max loads, so I've put together a handful of rounds to try today, 2 loadings with 150 grain pills, the third with 155 grain pills. Same powder and charge for all. Pulled is seated .010" off the lands, as it has always been. Something I've noticed with this rifle, is after sending a round, I can eject and rechamber that same piece of brass, which tells me the chamber is loose. If the chamber is loose, the bullets aren't hitting the rifling straight, and if the bullets aren't going down the barrel straight, they won't all follow the same flight path. I just bought a neck sizing die to help me with this, but couldn't order the bushing for it, so it is currently in paperweight status until I can get a bushing. The barrel with have to do for deer season this year, but for next year, I'm thinking it may end up with a new 24" barrel. Any other ideas?

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Originally Posted by Volstandigkeit

Something I've noticed with this rifle, is after sending a round, I can eject and rechamber that same piece of brass, which tells me the chamber is loose.

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I could be mistaken, but I don't believe that your conclusion is the only possibility. For example, perhaps your brass is work-hardened and needs to be annealed.

What is your twist rate?

Have you tried any 160 grain or heavier bullets? Lighter bullets?
How many different powders have you tried?

I would not give up yet. There are myriad bullets and powders out there and just because your rifle doesn't like three different loads you have, does not mean that you won't find your tackdriver load with a little more effort.

Your rifle is still accurate enough for deer hunting at reasonable ranges.

1:10 twist. Brass is new, but was left over stuff a local gentleman had purchased it in 1984.

I've tried about 10 different powder, charge, bullet combinations all with 150 or 155 grain bullets from Hornady, Sierra, or Nosler. Noslers being least accurate, Sierras the most. I'd like to stay lighter for deer sized game, but next option will be some heavier options from Sierra, Berger, and Hornady. Everything I've tried so far indicates that this rifle favors IMR4320.

I'm certainly not giving up, just trying to gather some additional ideas that I may not have looked into. Though at some point, I will likely rebarrel as I'd prefer a 24" tube for a little better burn.

I have had 2 10" twist 30-06 barrels and both preferred the heavier bullets to the 150-155 class. I had good luck with the Sierra 180gr SBT, and it performed great on deer.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you on this but, are you saying that if a rifle can rechamber a piece of brass that it just fired that the chamber is loose? I have yet to have a rifle that wouldn't rechamber its own spent brass. ;)

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Originally Posted by bootsmcguire

I have had 2 10" twist 30-06 barrels and both preferred the heavier bullets to the 150-155 class. I had good luck with the Sierra 180gr SBT, and it performed great on deer.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you on this but, are you saying that if a rifle can rechamber a piece of brass that it just fired that the chamber is loose? I have yet to have a rifle that wouldn't rechamber its own spent brass. ;)

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I'm basing that on my .223 700. Shoots lights out, and won't rechamber the brass I just ejected.

Will look in to some heavier pills for it.

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Originally Posted by Volstandigkeit

I'm basing that on my .223 700. Shoots lights out, and won't rechamber the brass I just ejected.

Will look in to some heavier pills for it.

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Understood, in my experience that is not the norm. The only barrel I had that wouldn't rechamber its own brass was a Bergara barrel that had a chamber with some deep tool gouges in the sidewalls of the chamber.

Being able to rechamber spent brass is what a Neck Sizing die is beneficial for, that way the body and shoulder of the brass is a perfect fit for your chamber.

165 imr4350

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Originally Posted by stangfish

165 imr4350

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Trying to find some 4350. Everyone here is out.

Good luck finding any IMR 4350. I use it in my 30.06 & 25.06 religiously. I recently found some Accurate 4350 that does comparable to the IMR4350.
Natchez had some not too long ago.

Happy powder shopping.

4320 is my number 2, and isn't hard to get. I will remember Accurate 4350 next trip to town. After house shopping today, I did pick up a blister pack of Berger 168 match hunting bullets. Hopefully it won't be drizzling and windy tomorrow.

I agree on that.... Any brass I have fired will re-chamber, on any bolt action. Maybe if he just tried neck sizing it would be better?
I think its the powder charge and how tight is the barrel lug? Lot of factors could do that.

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Originally Posted by hunterbob

I agree on that.... Any brass I have fired will re-chamber, on any bolt action. Maybe if he just tried neck sizing it would be better?
I think its the powder charge and how tight is the barrel lug? Lot of factors could do that.

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Working on neck sizing also. Have to find the bushing for a Redding die. 20 years of reloading, and this is my first neck sizing die.

I don't use 4350 and never had used it, except in 243. I would go to Varget. Varget in 308 is better than factory. It took me just 3 loads before I got the right one and its consistent. I don't believe you have a brass problem, but I would do a full length resize everytime, and make sure of your case length, don't worry about moving the bullet out to touch rifling (higher pressures) until you get the problem resolved. Also if you have a cannurl on the bullet , don't crimp the neck too tight, also if bullet does not have canurle like Sierra , do not try and crimp those at all. Hope this helps ; these are problems I went through over the years. You just got to take it one step at a time. Make sure you have a quality mic to measure with too. (not those plastic dial ones)

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Originally Posted by hunterbob

I would go to Varget. Varget in 308 is better than factory.

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I agree, But the OP wanted to know about a 30-06.

Yes I know he wanted to know about the 06, but the problems he is having are things that I have experienced in reloading.
I'm fixin to do 3006's .... but my main point is that if you change too many things at once, is not the way. The case length and crimp or no crimp are critical and can deform a casing. Start medium range on powder (also bullet?) and work up to a hotter load , all the time watching for over pressure signs. What I am saying is . This problem is normal for any caliber. Not just that 3006 ....

I've been going over all my data from previous sessions and started putting things together. I'm starting to think this rifle will shoot, but is just inconsistent. The reason I say that, is that at 100 yards, either prone or benchrested, while a 5 shot group will be 1 3/8", not matter the bullet, no matter the load, no matter the seating depth, 3 will be touching or close to touching, and 2 will be fliers. I admit to having a few called fliers now and again, but not every group of 5. I've noticed a tight spot in the bore when cleaning, which I never even focused on being the problem. So I picked up 50 cast lead bullets from a local gentleman last night, and will get some Clover lapping compound today and load a few fire lapping rounds and see what happens. Worst case scenario it opens the groups up more and I have to buy a new barrel, best case it tightens up and starts stacking bullets in the same hole. Overall, if I can just get it to shoot under an inch I will be thrilled.

I think you should try something in the 180g weight with the 1-10 twist. 4350's or 4831's should be good powder selection. Just thinking you need to weight it down a bit.

I am in the heavy camp. For a 06, I65's to me are minimums. The question for 150 class projectiles is... Why? If the recoil is overbearing, a 308 barrel might be a better option. A 30-06 starts to shine in every way at the >175 class mark. It is what a 30-06 does.

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Originally Posted by stangfish

I am in the heavy camp. For a 06, I65's to me are minimums. The question for 150 class projectiles is... Why? If the recoil is overbearing, a 308 barrel might be a better option. A 30-06 starts to shine in every way at the >175 class mark. It is what a 30-06 does.

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I have to agree with Stang. Although my '06 does well with 150's Nos BT's & 155 Nos Cust. Comps, there's no substitute for a good 180gr Bullet.
The few times I tried 4064 & Varget, I always come back to 4350. It just seems to get along with the barrel better.

180 just seems excessive for whitetails. It's certainly not a recoil thing. Also, when everyone was freaking out, 175+ were hard to locate, while 150-165 were abundant.

I glanced through this post and a few things hit me. To start what is a "loose chamber?" My question is why wouldn't a fired round fit back into the chamber it was fired in? I would be upset if the round would not chamber back into the chamber it was fired in. The manner that Savage chambers barrel, can lead to the chamber being crooked, and you can tell this when you jamb a bullet and it will only partially mark the bullet. The thing is I have seen many of Savage rifles with crooked chambers, and it don't seem to hurt them any as far as accuracy goes. I would say that some of the best shooting Savage barrels I have seen had crooked chambers.

Now moving onto the accuracy problem, to start why are you shooting 5 shot groups? 3 shots proves the load, 5 shoots proves the shooter. Onto of that your shooting a sporter barrel ,and I would imagine that with 30/06 rounds the barrel heats up fast. This gun is not a Benchrest gun, don't treat it as such. Even with our Benchrest guns when I am looking for a load for a barrel we only shoot 3 shot groups, until we find a good load. Most accuracy problems come down to optics. Just because a scope is new, or a certain brand doesn't mean that it is good. Try another scope and see if it makes any difference. Also check to makes sure the mounts are tight, many aftermarket basses have screw that are too long, and bottom out on the barrel threads before the tighten down the bass.

What is a "called flyer?" I have heard this term used, but it makes no sense to me. If you know ahead of time that a bullet is going to be out of the group why would you fire it ? In my world a flyer is a flyer, meaning it is out of the group because either some was wrong, or the shooter made a mistake. In competition no one will let you get a do over because you called that flyer.

Seating depth is the most critical thing when dealing with loading, don't just try one depth. Powder charge is less critical. Don't get hard headed when dealing with seating depth, try everything from a hard jamb to jumping the bullet 95 thousands. Some barrels like the bullets jumped. Also pay attention to how the bullet mates up with the seating die, this can cause uneven seating depths, and concentricity problems.

Last try different things when cleaning the rifle. I have found ever factory savage barrel I have ever shot, shot better when it was dirty. I have found that most savage barrels open up groups when they are clean and it takes a few shots for them to settle down. Don't "fire lap" your barrel, all you will accomplish is extra wear on the throat and lead angle of the barrel.

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Originally Posted by 82boy

I glanced through this post and a few things hit me. To start what is a "loose chamber?" My question is why wouldn't a fired round fit back into the chamber it was fired in? I would be upset if the round would not chamber back into the chamber it was fired in. The manner that Savage chambers barrel, can lead to the chamber being crooked, and you can tell this when you jamb a bullet and it will only partially mark the bullet. The thing is I have seen many of Savage rifles with crooked chambers, and it don't seem to hurt them any as far as accuracy goes. I would say that some of the best shooting Savage barrels I have seen had crooked chambers.

Now moving onto the accuracy problem, to start why are you shooting 5 shot groups? 3 shots proves the load, 5 shoots proves the shooter. Onto of that your shooting a sporter barrel ,and I would imagine that with 30/06 rounds the barrel heats up fast. This gun is not a Benchrest gun, don't treat it as such. Even with our Benchrest guns when I am looking for a load for a barrel we only shoot 3 shot groups, until we find a good load. Most accuracy problems come down to optics. Just because a scope is new, or a certain brand doesn't mean that it is good. Try another scope and see if it makes any difference. Also check to makes sure the mounts are tight, many aftermarket basses have screw that are too long, and bottom out on the barrel threads before the tighten down the bass.

What is a "called flyer?" I have heard this term used, but it makes no sense to me. If you know ahead of time that a bullet is going to be out of the group why would you fire it ? In my world a flyer is a flyer, meaning it is out of the group because either some was wrong, or the shooter made a mistake. In competition no one will let you get a do over because you called that flyer.

Seating depth is the most critical thing when dealing with loading, don't just try one depth. Powder charge is less critical. Don't get hard headed when dealing with seating depth, try everything from a hard jamb to jumping the bullet 95 thousands. Some barrels like the bullets jumped. Also pay attention to how the bullet mates up with the seating die, this can cause uneven seating depths, and concentricity problems.

Last try different things when cleaning the rifle. I have found ever factory savage barrel I have ever shot, shot better when it was dirty. I have found that most savage barrels open up groups when they are clean and it takes a few shots for them to settle down. Don't "fire lap" your barrel, all you will accomplish is extra wear on the throat and lead angle of the barrel.

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The chamber thing, I believe is a wash. I've moved on from considering that.

Groups, since the beginning of time the standard has been 5 shots, sometimes 10. Obviously a sporter barrel heats up faster, so the solution is to extend the time between shots. I've tried a different scope, with the same results. Mounts are all torqued and Loctited,mans have been checked several times.

To me a "called flyer" is when the shooter knows he botched the shot. Maybe that came from my military days, maybe it came from my youth. Either way I've used the term and heard it for years. I can see it supporting your theory of a 3 shot group, but still think 3 shot groups are something that came about from magazine writers realizing some of their advertisers couldn't produce a rifle that would shoot a consistent 5 shot group, therefore to keep from upsetting them,they went to 3 shots and sold it as gospel.

I've been working with seating depth a little, but until I can find the load that shines the most, it's hard to know what works best.

This barrel is no different that any other Savage barrel as far as preferring to be dirty. Jury is still out on fire lapping this barrel. I've done it in the past with no effect, as well as tightening things up. Never had it hurt a thing. If it does, it just gives me an excuse to do some more gunsmithing.

What range are you hunting ? I know we strive for the best accuracy but 1 3/8" group will drop any deer. I`d go with that and do my fine tuning during the off season. My -06 likes 165 accubonds over W760, If I do my part it`ll shoot 1 1/2" at 100 yards all day. The elk don`t mind

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Originally Posted by oldbrass

What range are you hunting ? I know we strive for the best accuracy but 1 3/8" group will drop any deer. I`d go with that and do my fine tuning during the off season. My -06 likes 165 accubonds over W760, If I do my part it`ll shoot 1 1/2" at 100 yards all day. The elk don`t mind

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250 max, more around 150. 1 3/8" is good enough, I agree. And is looking to have to be good enough this year. But next year will end up being a different story. I respect my quarry to much to not pursue better than what I currently have the ability to shoot.

If you are getting several bullets touching then fliers...you might have a bedding issue. Have you checked for high spots in your stock? Pillar and/or glass bedding has helped my rifles in the past. What does your runout look like on loaded rounds? Do you have paralax adjustment on your scope? Just things to think about.

Stock is fully floated. Haven't looked in to runout. No parallax on this scope.

Just to toss out a few other quick items to peek at: If your rifle has been bedded, be sure that only the back of the recoil lug is tight against the bedding. The sides of the lug and the front of the lug should not touch anything. Also, the barrel nut should not be touching anything. In addition, check (with a dollar bill) that your tang is free floated. If not, remove any stock material to have your tang not touching.

One other question: What brass are you using, and do you ever measure the diameter of the neck thickness of your brass?

Dave

Finally got everything to work in my favor. Seems it likes 150 gr Nosler green tips over IMR4320 more than everything else I have in the cabinet. Slow fired, as in 2 minutes between shots, it will shoot a ragged 1 hole 5 shot group at 100 yards if I do my part. Got it figure out just in time too. I won't be home long enough to do anything with it for the next couple weeks, before heading to KY for deer season.

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Originally Posted by Volstandigkeit

I'm basing that on my .223 700. Shoots lights out, and won't rechamber the brass I just ejected.

Will look in to some heavier pills for it.

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If it shoots lights out, aim lower, ha ha ha.

How should I glass bed my new varmiter heavy barrel camo in 243? I have not shot it yet so maybe do that first. Don in Austin

Glad you found something that worked. If you do want to find other powder/bullet/seating depth combinations to work in that rifle, you can do the OCW/Ladder tests. They can, and may have saved you some time and headache with your rifle.

If I have issues with any rifles after I have done a OCW/Ladder test and found a good load, I first confirm at the range with a fellow Army buddy to confirm its not just the shooter (me). I then proceed to check that every single nut/bolt/screw/swivelstud is properly toqued to prevent any abnormal harmonic vibration issues that may arise or change during the shot string. Add what davemuzz mentioned and you should have a resolved issue provided there is nothing mechanically wrong with your firearm and you arent resting the barrel on anything haha, I see a lot... I mean a lot of people make this mistake during my trips to the range.