What am I looking at here?...

This is the end of my 7mm-08 barrel. Last week I noticed some whitish marks in the lands of the barrel. I also noticed accuracy & consistancy was dropping off. This week I shot known accurate ammo I made. I could not get any of it to group at all. When I got home & started cleaning the barrel, I noticed the whiteish marks are bigger, more of them & starting to cover / fill the lands in the barrel.
None were noted on the rifling of the barrel. Only in the lands.

Using a bright light on just the right angle, I can see pretty far inside the barrel. These spots(?) in question are definitely bigger than what I noticed last week.

Now, this week I couldn't get this rifle to group at all. Even running an OCW on some new 120's - nothing. Known accurate ammo - ammo that I shot 3 weeks ago & posted pics of - See thread " 3 reasons why I like my 7-08 edge" - I can't get anything even close to what's in those pics.

Is this barrel overheated or scortched? I can't ever recall seeing anything like this inside a barrel but then, I can't say I've looked for anything like this.

Hoppe's has no affect - Sweet's 7.62 has no affect. I broke a cardinal rule & tried a brush - no dice, or removal of the marks.
I did the best I could with the photo. The pic shown is the best of about 9 pics I took.

Somebody enlighten me. What am I looking at here? It seems terribly coincidental the accuracy went away the same time the marks appeared. I can't help think they're related.
Barrel change time?
Thanks for your help with this.

Frank in Fla


http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...8barrel001.jpg

Somethng else comes to mind...
While cleaning the barrel with a wet patch or dry, it feels a little "draggy" while pulling the rod thru. It's especially noticeable with a dry patch. I can feel places where the patch is dragging on something inside. Wet patches are not as noticeable but I can feel it none the less.

I had this slated for a different caliber / barrel. I hadn't planned on it this soon....

Frank in Fla

Get some one with a bore scope to check it out for you. I wouldnt toss the barrel until some one had a look at it.

At least you know that it wasn't the shooter...haha

Now we get to be .223 buddies. (WSSM doesn't mean anything)

I've seen this in the barrels of a few M24's. I could never really figure it out, but it never really seemed to affect performance a whole lot either. I've got some arms room friends I'll ask about it. I'll get back to you. Also, how many rounds do you have through that tube? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would do this, unless you shot some rounds that were loaded unrealistically hot, or if you left it in a camp fire for a few hours. Whatever it is, I'll see what I can dig up. What is it's normal diet of choice? Most of the rifles that I saw it in were using a steady supply of black hills, or Hornady specialty ammo.

Andy - I appreciate your response.

A little history for you...

I got the barrel from another member about a month ago (+/-). I put it on a brand new Edge action & commence to set up load testing. None of the ammo I tested was near the upper limits of the Lyman book.
It's had a steady diet of 140 Noslers, 139 Hornadys, 120 Noslers - All ballistic tips or V-max.

Powder used was 4064 with new brass. here's a target from 2 weeks ago-

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...targets002.jpg

I have several other but you'll be looking at the same thing. This was a one hole shooter up until last week when I noticed accuracy dropped off & these mysterious whiteish marks appeared.
This week it shot even worse & the marks in question are much greater. With a small light I can look about 1/4 of the way down the barrel & see much of the barrel interior showing these marks

Frank don't know what that may be, but I swear by "Butch's Bore Shine" works great to remove copper fouling, may help you out here also.
I told a friend about it that had a one hole Savage .223 that his MOA went bad and he tried all different solvents and nothing worked until he tried this. Now he is back to shooting 1 hole groups now.

Also where have you been getting the 140 and 120gr Noslers from, I can't seem to locate any?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

Frank don't know what that may be, but I swear by "Butch's Bore Shine" works great to remove copper fouling, may help you out here also.
I told a friend about it that had a one hole Savage .223 that his MOA went bad and he tried all different solvents and nothing worked until he tried this. Now he is back to shooting 1 hole groups now.

Also where have you been getting the 140 and 120gr Noslers from, I can't seem to locate any?

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I'm guessing he gets them from wait her midway or Natchez....of our local reloading store, Space Coast Bullets.

And he uses Sweets for the copper then uses hoppes...I don't believe it is left over copper...he cleans his barrels so thoroughly that I would use them as shishkabobs.

Didn't look like copper but thought if he did not find a solution he might want to try Butch's.

Space Coast Bullets I have bought some cast .357 swc from them... Good people!

I want to find some rounds to try out in my soon to be 25-06.

Frank, what kind of powder are you using ? Ive hade similar deposits while using some types of powder. Yes i have a bore scpoe ,a ctually a few bore scopes and i live in west palm ,fl .
Gary
I meant to ask how old is the powder?

I would say the whitish color you are seing is residue from your cleaning solvent. Your problem with accuracy is do to hard carbon. You say you never used a brush, and this is part of the reson why the gun has a hard carbon problem. A bronze brush is absolutly nessasary to help break up hard carbon, along with good solvents. (Not anything that Hoppes presnetly makes. ) At the point you are at, you need to use a product for carbon fouling. I like JB bore cleaner, on a old bronze brush with 0000 steel wool wrapeed around it, covered in the stuff. It will take the hard carbon out. If you have a hard time finding JB bore cleaner you can get Remington 40X cleaner at any walmart, and it uses the same product as JB, but it is suspended in a iol substance, that makes it easier to apply. I use JB in all my barrels when the patchs get a bit grabby, it will not hurt a thing. (Nore will a bronze brush.)

I too think it is a copper problem. Use a brush then use some gun slick foaming bore cleaner in it. Let it sit over night then patch it out. Chances are the foam will come out bright blue meaning lots of copper, repeat if necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fla9-40

Didn't look like copper but thought if he did not find a solution he might want to try Butch's.

Space Coast Bullets I have bought some cast .357 swc from them... Good people!

I want to find some rounds to try out in my soon to be 25-06.

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If you get your 25-06 to shoot anything like Franks, it'll get boring quick.

OK.... Good info from everyone.
The general consensus seems to agree it's carbon related. The powder is IMR 4064 & it's new. Powder doesn't last very long around here. I also use the same can in another rifle & I'm not seeing that whiteish stuff. I'm not fully understanding the carbon build up theory since I have a few other rifles that get used more than this one & I see no sign of the white streaking. I was able to get a glimpse down the barrel & it's everywhere. All up & down the lands of the barrel. As I mentioned in my opening info, I used a bronze brush on it, against my better judgement, and gave it a very brisk scrubbing with no impact on the white haze.

I guess i'll try some of the advice y'all have given me since I really, REALLY don't want to pull that barrel yet. It's only a few weeks in service & I was have a real good time with it.
It was incredibly accurate & I had the loads almost tuned in.

On to the next phase. Stronger barrel cleaner suitable for carbon removal & a new brush or two...

By the way, this stuff reminded me an awful lot of lead inside a shotgun barrel. When I clean the shotguns & try to remove the lead I use a brush & generous amounts of Hoppes. A good scrubbing & it usually comes out within no time. It has a similar color and shade to lead in the shotgun barrel but it hasn't been phased by my attempts at removal.

On to the next attempt. Thanks gentlemen. I do genuinely appreciate your input.

Frank in Fla

Oh, and by the way...

Whoever asked about the 120's... I got them from Midway & Space Coast Bullet. Space Coast doesn't always have a full compliment of Noslers so it's hit or miss.

I like the 140's best of all. They seemed to do best in that caliber / rifle. Right up until that white foggy, hazy stuff showed up.

Frank in Fla

Here's a little bit better shot of it. It's hard to get the big picture with a digital camera that was obsolete 3 months before I bought it. If you looked down the barrel with a bright flashlight, you'd see the white hazy foggy stuff as far a the light will reach.
Best I can come up with as I don't have access to a bore scope unless I bring the barrel with me when I go for my next colonoscopy.....

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/...arrel001-1.jpg

Trent - I really don't believe it's copper. If you've ever used Sweet's 7.62 you'd know what I mean. that stuff is absolutely amazing. With Hoppe's, in order for it to lift copper, it has to sit. That means time waiting while it does it's job. A barrel with extreme copper foul may take several hours to clean with Hoppe's. It does remove copper, just doesn't do it instantly.
Sweet's is a whole 'nother story. Soak the swab, run it thru the barrel for a full minute and you'll be looking at a dark blue patch when you pull it out. I've never had to run Sweet's thru a barrel more than 4 to 5 times in one session. I've coated the inside of a barrel for 10 minutes & pulled a patch thru & had it come out purple. It'a a very strong ammonia based product & as you know, ammonia will dissolve copper & is used in the copper plating process.

Serious stuff. Expensive stuff, too. 13 bucks for a small bottle but it gets used sparingly. I keep a bottle on hand for those extra long weekends of shooting.
Hoppe's is an ammonia based product as well although it's kerosene based which is why it doesn't clean as good but, if you leave it in the barrel, the chemical evaporates & the oil stays behind. not necessarily a bad thing. just gotta remember to clean it out.

I gotta help my doctor pay off his BMW. I have an exam for my severe case of middle age falling apart. Thanks for everyones 2 cents. I'll talk with y'all later.
Frank in Fla

UPDATED INFO>>>>

OK... I just ran a brush thru it with Hoppe's on it. I scrubbed it 10 times each of 3 times using a bronze brush. It had no impact on it. Nothing... notta.... zip. the hazy marks are as they were before scrubbing.

Next -

I used the brush again with a little Sweet's on it. The Sweet's was starting to disolve the brush evident by the bluish color in it but again, no change on the white haze. The longer I look at it, the more confusing it gets. Something tells me it's heat related but why is it at the muzzle end....?

I can't see down the barrel to find out what it looks like near the chamber or throat. I'm at a loss here.

I suppose I'll try shooting it once more before I condemn it.

Frank in Fla

If he goes shooting with it one more time, it's not going to be located in the classifieds...it's going to be the lake across from the range...

have you tried any jb bore paste?

I'm wondering--assuming it is copper fouling--what causes this in the first place? Is the bullet failing to stabilize in the barrel--twist/weight/velocity not right etc. ? Just want to learn--thanx.

On a side note -

When I got his barrel it was clean. I gave it "the treatment" with Hoppes. A generous swabbing, let it sit for 30 minutes, 3 to 4 clean patches & the inside shined. I could look up at the florescent light thru the barrel & it shined from end to end.
A few range sessions & I was quite pleased with its performance. I put up pics of some of the targets. It was a real shooter.
2 weeks ago this hazy stuff appeared. I see it's gotten worse since last week. I shot 16 rounds of 120 Noslers on an OCW. No way I was going to tell where the accuracy node was. All 5 - 3 shot groups looked like my grandson practicing with his eyes closed. All 5 - 3 shot groups looked like the scatter node.

Sunday evening - Barrel cleaning time. I'm seeing the white haze has doubled since the previous week.

I have no idea what it is. I keep getting the feeling it's heat related. Don't know why. Just a feeling. When shooting, 3 to 4 shots then cool down. This is typical on how it was used.

Frank in Fla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fgw_in_fla

On a side note -


I have no idea what it is. I keep getting the feeling it's heat related.

Frank in Fla

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LOL Don't stroke it so fast!

That's why I like this site so much...

The tech advice & info PLUS the comedy. Where else can you get all that for 12 bucks a year?

Which compells me to ask...

Is that an experience related suggestion or speculation based advice?

I am with you this is not copper. Copper is the easiest thing to remove from a bore, all is needed is something with ammonium. I have seen many shooters use store bought Ammonium right out the bottle, and remove copper just as good as sweets or montana extreme. I have seen withish marks like this before, it is a reaction between the bluing, and the bore solvent. I bet that it will go away if you wipe the bore out with accetone. It takes a lot more heat than what is generated by 10 shots to cause any slight problem. It is typical than my guns will get get 10 Plus shots withen a 2 to 4 minute period, and it has never once affected them. If you thing that your other guns are not collecting carbon, you might want to think again. Carbon affects some calibers more than others. Just scrub it out with JB and shoot it.

Tried the acetone on a small brass wire brush. Didn't even phase it. And I have no doubt that carbon and / or copper will build up inside a barrel. I always go thru a lengthy cleaning routine at the end of each range session. I'm sure there's carbon in the throat area, probably a little fire cracking & who knows what else.

This seems to be none of the aforementioned. Brushes & chemicals I have on hand have no impact on it. The inside of that barrel was traumatized with a brush earlier today & it made no difference at all, even scrubbed with Sweets & Hoppes.
Nutthin'.....

I give up.

I'm going to shoot it once more. If it gets worse & more of that whitish hazy stuff appears, I'll be doing an early barrel change out. So far the trend has been the haziness has increased with each range session, over the past 2 weeks.
Thanks for the input gents.... I'm off to the 'ol salt mine.

Frank in FLa

Frank,

I looked but couldn't find it but I remember another situation just like this posted I think on one of the other forums I hang out on. The poster in that case was using Sweets to clean the copper and then following right up with Hoppes. The consensus or final thoughts in that one was the two cleaners were reacting to each other and causing the build up. "As best" as my old memory can tell I believe the poster was going to try light lapping of the bore to remove the deposits. I can't say I personally know the chemistry involved but I should imagine it might be possible and at that a light lapping will not hurt a factory barrel. My own take is as the deposit is white, other than aluminum I can only think it must be a salt or the like. The heat of shooting may well be involved but only on how it's affecting the cleaner residue(s) left in the bore. Any heating I personally have every seen would be more carbon to blue.

Ron

Thaks Ron...

So far that's the most logical answer I've heard. I don't understand why it wouldn't haze up in the other 5 rifles and only this one but, maybe, just maybe there's something different about it.

I 'spose I'll try a little polishing compound & see if it has any impact on it. Last, but certainly not least, I'm going to play a little "Musical Barrels". I need to do a little swapping & I strongly suspect the 7mm-08 will be going idle for a while. New toys are always fun toys.

Thanks.
Frank in Fla

Worse comes to worse you could always try the David tubb fire lapping system and see if that will clean it up.

OK Frank, I have decided to help you out here. Take the barrel off, pack it up and ship it to me (on your dime) and I will dispose of it properly for you!! ;)
Hey... what are fellow Floridians good for!!?? :thumb:

Frank i had a similar deposit , near muzzle and found out it was one of the ingredients in the lot of military powder I was using , aluminum . Its used to prevent rust in tropical climates , so i was told . It deposits near the muzzle , because thats where it falls outa gas and start to solidify , nothing to do with velocity , but the cooling of gases further from explosion , chamber . Anyway thats what i remember and was told . Presision shooters benchrest book has somethings on cleaning , its good reading. J B cleaned it .
Gary

I can't recall EVER having so many friends & people wanting to help me out....

As of this writting, the rifle in question is on the bench, in pieces & about to get rebarreled to a new & improved .243. I just got my new .223 WSSM barrel & I'm playing "barrel, barrel - WHo gets a new barrel"...

I have one action & bolt that operates like silk with farm fresh butter on it & I have another action that operates as smooth as russian burlap. I'm trying to come up with the right combinations of action, bolt, barrel based on accuracy & what the rifle is designated for (target, hunting, war time activity...)
SO...
There is always that possibility that you may come home one afternoon & trip over it on the way in.

Gotta go back to work. I hate it when my rifles are in pieces all over the shop.
Frank in Fla

Frank, im in west palm 1/2 mile from turnpike , with borescopes , lathes , milling and over1k rifles , just in case you want me to scope it for ya. Oh ya i dont charge.
Gary

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gmac5

Frank, im in west palm 1/2 mile from turnpike , with borescopes , lathes , milling and over1k rifles , just in case you want me to scope it for ya. Oh ya i dont charge.
Gary

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Good Karma to both of you--I rarely see such graciousness on other firearms forums. : )

Gary - You're a gentleman of the rarest kind. It looks like we'll have to make an arrangement to get together in the near future. Reserve some range time & lets get together some weekend.

I appreciate your most generous offer so much, I might just name a kid after you. Or maybe one of my cats... i don't know.

I would like to get together and perhaps have a look see down a few of my barrels to see how badly they may be traumatized.

Time for some coffee & watch Gov. Romney mop the stage with Obunghole.... Again.

Later, y'all
Frank in Fla

thanks,Frank you always have me laughing (Obunghole)
could not agree more

drybean

Hey Bean..

Try to tell me that name doesn't fit.

Just try...

Well folks, don't worry about the "Great WHite Haze Issue"...

I took the barrel off & I think I'll play around with it when I have a chance. The replacement barrel is a SS fluted .243 fat barrel. It kinda gets me a little PO'ed because I barely got to fine tune the loads I had. The 7-08 was by far one of the easiest I've ever loaded for.
Accuracy loads showed up on the first go around & it seemed to do very well with 120gr thru 150gr bullets.

I 'spose I'll keep an eyeball open for another barrel. After all, I have to do something with this new die set & all this brass. The bullets may get used for a 7mm Rem Mag I'm considering. I need to enlargen my cajones first...

Thanks for everyone's input on this.

Frank in Fla

I was a little curious about you firing it a few more times--I was going to suggest that you try a quality factory load to see if the same blemishes are happening, in which case something may be wrong with the barrel/rifle. If not, I would suspect something in your home-brew.

I'm haveing the same issue with my 223axis, I've been using win and AE 55grfmj overrun stuff and am kind of wondering if it would have the aluminum additive mentioned above?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thermaler

I was a little curious about you firing it a few more times--I was going to suggest that you try a quality factory load to see if the same blemishes are happening, in which case something may be wrong with the barrel/rifle. If not, I would suspect something in your home-brew.

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He won't take the time to fire it a few more times when he has 10 other barrels waiting to be tried out...lol

The powder i was using was surplus ,cant remember the number ,but it was for the 223 (5.56) now that im thinking about it it may have been tin or aluminum added or both . Antway clean it now with JB or rem 40x .
There are 2 ways to clean a barrel ,chemically or abrasives .
Abrasives wont harm even the softest barrel steel .
Gary