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Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I have a mod 12 F/TR, which is generally a pretty good shooter - I get 0.5" groups for 5 shots at 100yd on average, and often a bit better than that. I am using 168gn Sierra MatchKing projectiles at 2845fps (measured).
I am basically looking for any suggestions that anyone might have to make the accuracy and consistency any better than it is now, without going to a match-grade barrel. I have already changed the factory cheekpiece for a Karsten one, and I am using a Nightforce NXS scope and mounts.
Has anyone done any modifications to their mod 12 Target rifles? Do they benefit from doing some bedding or action truing work? Anything else anyone would recommend?
I have been toying with the idea of changing it from .308Win to 6.5x47Lapua, so if I go down the match barrel route, that is probably the direction I will go.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Go with the 6.5 x 47 Lapua as fast as you can. Sell the 308 barrel for what ever you can get and call Jim at NSS for a CBI barrel. Mine was at the 1/4" at 100 yards without much load development. I am expecting to get well under that.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
As many have said on this forum before, trigger time will improve your accuracy.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
if your planning on shooting it in f-t/r class you have to keep it 308win or 223 only .and as said trigger time is the best way.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Have your tried switching up your bullets? My pet load for 308 is IMR 4895 at 45g with Hornady 155g A-max SST. That or change the trigger to the SSS Competition Trigger, get SSS to time and true the action. However, I don't know if these changes will allow you to compete in f-class.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Free floating the barrel, bedding the action and adjusting the trigger are the basic tune up for any rifle. Following that load development and brass prep will make a big difference. To get below 1/2 moa your brass and loads must be consistent. Try shooting ladder test with differing seating depths, and then differing powders and loads. Look to the 6BR website for loads to try.
One final test is to have someone else shoot the gun. The shooting style we use is a big factor. Try different styles to see what the gun likes.
Terry
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I have tried several different 155gn bullets, but the rifle just doesn't seem to like them - I tried different powder loads and seating depths, but always the same result - in a 5 shot group, I will get 3 good shots and 2 bad shots on every group. With the 168gn Sierras, they were much better.
I will get a gunsmith to bed and true the action, and keep practicing for now until I can justify the money on putting a match barrel on.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Try 175 grn Match Kings and IMR 4895. My 308's like them better than 168's.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Comparing the two, the 6.5 Lapua is a better long range caliber than the .308. As mentioned, IF your going to compete in F Class your stuck with .308. If your just wanting something to reach out at the longer ranges, the 6.5 Lapua is the way to go. Yes, the 308 will reach out to 1k but the 6.5 Lapua will do it a lot easier and use less powder.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
when i first built my .223 AI, i didnt have the time or stuff to bed it...the bbl wasnt even floated...but i did get half in groups at 100yds with one load. this last spring i finally bedded it, floated the bbl too. it will shoot under a half inch with more than 5 different handloads....anymore, when i am putting together a project i bed it right off the bat. no sense in not doing it, it can only help you. just my .02$.
Henry.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
FWIW, don't forget when you re-attach your barreled action to the now bedded stock, use an inch\lb torque wrench and tighten the action screws to 35 or 45 in\lbs each. Tighten the front one first, and the rear one last.
This is a very important step in obtaining consistent accuracy from your Savage rifle. (Ask me how I know..... ::) :P ;D)
Dave
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinny
I have tried several different 155gn bullets, but the rifle just doesn't seem to like them - I tried different powder loads and seating depths, but always the same result - in a 5 shot group, I will get 3 good shots and 2 bad shots on every group. With the 168gn Sierras, they were much better.
I will get a gunsmith to bed and true the action, and keep practicing for now until I can justify the money on putting a match barrel on.
Check the brass. Brass that is thicker on one side or not concentric can cause this. What is the runout on your brass and loaded ammo?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I use Lapua brass, so there should not be an issue with quality. I often check the brass weights, and the extreme spread of weight is around 2gn across 100 cases.
I don't have the tools to measure bullet runout. I use Lee collet dies, and from reports I have had from other competition shooters that use the collet dies, that the collet dies are very good and runout is not really a problem with them.
I find it strange that if it was a problem with the brass, that the accuracy and consistency using 168gn pills is much better than with 155gn pills.
I have ordered some 175gn MatchKings, so I will give those a try. I will also check the tension of the action screws and torque them to the specs that are recommended in the article that Balljoint posted.
As I said in the original post, the rifle shoots pretty good as it is, just looking for a few tips and tricks to try and squeeze a little more out of it.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
2 grains spread is big. Is there a velocity difference lightest to heaviest?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I was having a terrible time with flyers with my M 12 until I read this thread and followed the link posted by Ballpoint. That method of establishing action screw torque showed immediate and dramatic improvement. I don't know if the improvement will last as I just tried it today, but I am very encouraged.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Balding
2 grains spread is big. Is there a velocity difference lightest to heaviest?
It is a 2gn spread across 100 cases that have been fired 6-8 times. I usually batch the cases by weight so that all of the shots in a group are using brass that varies by no more than .2gn.
I readjusted the trigger last night and tightened up the stock according to the torque settings advised in the article Balljoint posted. I have some 175gn SMK's to try this weekend, I will see how that goes.
As far as velocity goes, I have only shot 3 shots from my current load over a chrony, they registered at 2841, 2845 & 2849fps.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Use your chrony as much as you can, it can help determine if your problem is related to your loads. Example today, I shot my 06 and I usually get .5 groups. Today the first 3 shots were about an inch!! I was going nuts, then look at the chrono numbers and those loads were all over the place. If I had not have the chrono I would have been looking all over the place trying to find what was loose in my gun. Got the "proven loads" on the rifle and back to .5 groups.... Sometimes my rcbs 750 drifts, probably what happen here. Will pulll the bullets and check the powder again... Those that you shot with the chrono look good, but I am telling you, sometimes that powder charge...
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Sometimes my rcbs 750 drifts, probably what happen here.
Mine does this too. Very frustrating. Use the tare function to re- zero often with your empty powder scoop on the scale.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Use the tare function to re- zero often with your empty powder scoop on the scale
Please explain!
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
My Range Master 750 will creep over time, sometimes as much as 1.5 grains over several hours. I definitely notice it drifting off .1-.2 grains during the course of weighing out 50 powder charges.
Before using it i first plug it in and let it warm up. Then i go though the calibration cycle using the supplied weights. I know that the pan that I weigh my charges in weighs 114.5 grains; before starting I put the pan on the scale and press "zero". This is a "tare" weight function- it basically just compensates for the weight of the pan. It should now read 0.0 with the empty pan sitting on it. Proceed to weigh charges. Periodically place the empty pan on the scale; it should still read zero. If it doesn't, press the Zero button to re-zero. Alternatively, you can just watch the scale after you remove the pan... In my case it should read "-114.5". If it reads "-114.6 or -114.7", then it's time to re- zero.
In any case, the best policy is to never completely trust any electronic scale, especially the "Made in China" models such as ours. Use a good balance beam type scale to check your charges, say every fifth or tenth one, to verify your electronic scale. I have to admit to getting lazy on this lately, but I normally do it and it is a good idea especially for near-max loads.
Sorry if I hijacked this post, but this may have some relevance to the OP's problems.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel-nut
Sorry if I hijacked this post, but this may have some relevance to the OP's problems.
I don't think that the powder charges should be an issue - I weigheach and every charge using an RCBS 505 balance beam scale, so they should be pretty consistent.
I also batch my brass and projectiles by weight, so I can ensure that I have the 5 rounds which are making up the group are as close to exactly the same as I can get them.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Good, powder charge consistency is not an issue for you. This is reenforced by the very consistent chrono numbers in your previous post. I posted the above mainly because Dennis asked for clarification.
Have you tried the 175 sierras yet? I think you may get better results with these, especially at longer ranges. Consider getting a concentricity gauge to sort your loaded rounds for runout. I like the Sinclair concentricity gauge, it runs around 90-100$ depending if it's on sale. This was a revelation for me; it took my handloading to a higher level. Even with quality dies, you still get some "duds" that may have as much as .005" runout; for best results I like to have mine at .001 or less. With practice on a gauge such as this, you can actually see the tip of the bullet wobble as you spin it if it is off as little as .005-.010. Of course the dial indicator will tell you exactly how much it's off, but my point is if I can see it wobble with the naked eye, it can't possibly give optimal results. I generally separate these by placing them in the rear row of the 50 round box, and use them as foulers. The good ones go in the front of the box, and the really perfect ones ( rare) get marked with a sharpie. All this won't solve all your grouping problems but it won't hurt either. The more consistency you can get in your loaded rounds, the better.
The Sinclair gauge is kind of a "one trick pony", but it does that trick well. There are other very good ones, such as the NECO gauge and rcbs has one too, and there are others. The NECO can check all sorts of things, and is recommended by David Tubb in his DVD on precision reloading. This DVD is also worth the money.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Ok, so what is a "bad shot" here that you are talking about? do you have a picture, how do your groups measure with and without said bad shot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinny
As far as velocity goes, I have only shot 3 shots from my current load over a chrony, they registered at 2841, 2845 & 2849fps.
You need more than an example of 3 loads to call all your loads accurate as far as the powder charge/speed. I have check and double check loads in a group of 12, use the same weight bullet (all 150.1 gr instead of 150.2) and have come with different speeds and in occasion a "bad shot" that turns what could be a .3 group into a .5 group.
IM not trying to be argumentative here, just stressing the need to use a chrono as a tool to single out one possibility. In a group of 12 I often get doubles or triplets. But sometimes I do get a bad shot and when I compare the video to the speed guess whuat? Bad shot=bad speed... If I had not been using the chrono I would go crazy thinking that the scope is coming loose, the stock is coming loose, or God know what else might be loose or is it just me that flinch that shot... If your speed is constant and you have a problem somewhere else. Have someone else shoot the rifle, see if they experience the same 2 bad shot out of 5. If not take the shots at a different rate of what your are doing now. Ex if you shot them all with no wait then wait a until the gun cools down or viceversa.
Is my opinion that while you find your fluke you need to use your chrono. Actually, I dont see much reason not to use one. It just take 3 to 4 min to set it up and it gives you an assurance that your loads are constant and if there is a bad shot you need to look somewhere else.
Good luck.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Ex if you shot them all with no wait then wait a until the gun cools down or viceversa.
- This would be my next suggestion. Barrel heat can easily cause groups to open up, especially in a factory barrel. The factories don't go to the expense of stress relieving their barrels; most aftermarket barrel makers do. The button rifling process introduces significant stress into the steel, and as the barrel heats up from shooting, this stress can cause the point of impact to shift slightly. To help identify if this is your problem, try shooting a group your normal way, then let it cool thoroughly. Then shoot another group using the same ammo, except this time let the barrel cool completely between shots. If your range has power, bring an electric fan with you to help speed this up. If barrel stress is a factor, this will reveal it. I have two factory sporter rifles, a Weatherby 7-mag and a Browning .243, that refuse to group well warm. If I do as I explained above, both shoot about an inch.
Realize too that 1/2" or slightly under, as you stated, for five shots, is pretty darn good for any factory barrel. It's possible that there's not much more to be gained here without going the custom barrel route.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
What kind of loads were you using with the 155s?
I've been using 155s for about 4 years now, with *no* issues.
This is from load testing earlier this year (February) on a nice clear, crisp morning with no mirage, and basically zero wind (great day for load testing!):
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...1117112220.jpg
(sorry for the fuzzy pic, I went downstairs and snapped a cell-phone pic of the target)
Like I said, the barrel on the 12 F/TR tend to shoot 155s very, very well in my experience (I'm on barrel #5).
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I am loading up the 175s tonight and will give them a go tomorrow. I don't seem to be able to post attachments, but the 155gn projectiles, nearly every group I would get 3 shots in one hole - about 0.3", and 2 flyers which were further away and blew the group out to around 1". Not horrible accuracy, but not great. The 168gn Sierras seem much better.
I find it difficult to think that if it was a problem with my technique, brass or something coming loose etc, then why do the 168gn Sierras shoot so much better than 3 different 155gn projectiles?
I am just about due for a new batch of brass, I will see how that goes as well. I will also try to get hold of a chrony and put a few more shots over it to work out the velocity consistency.
As I said before, I am fairly happy with how the 168 Sierras shoot (though I will still try the 175s), I am not trying to work out what went wrong with the 155s, just seeing if there are any tricks/tips people have used on their F/TR to improve accuracy.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
@ barrel-nut
I use the RCBS ChargeMaster Combo-Scale and Dispenser,
Quote:
before starting I put the pan on the scale and press "zero". This is a "tare" weight function- it basically just compensates for the weight of the pan. It should now read 0.0 with the empty pan sitting on it. Proceed to weigh charges. Periodically place the empty pan on the scale; it should still read zero. If it doesn't, press the Zero button to re-zero.
On my scale, I calibrate it with the two weights supplied. I remove the weights and the dispenser automatically zero's. It's calibrated. I then put the pan on it, then zero it. After every charge is thrown, I put the empty pan back on the scale and it automatically zero's before throwing the next charge. I guess your 750 doesn't automatically zero when you return the empty pan to the scale?
My question, do I need to till check the pan weight as you described above? I guess it's still a good idea to do so. It only takes a few grains of powder to change the weight. I thought about getting a scale that measure in .100's, but again with only taking a few grains to change .010's, I don't see the advantage.
Just curious
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
To contine with the hijacking, concerning the powder charging...... :-\.....I use the RCBS ChargeMaster 1500. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/772...combo-110-volt The only time I have found a problem with this unit is if I happen to have a fan on during the summer, or if I have my heater with a blower on during the winter months when I am reloading in my garage. (A vented ceiling heater....don't worry guys....I'm not trying to ignite my house!!)
I have found that a small constant "breeze" will effect the scale. But, other than that, I always put the empty powder holder on the scale, then turn on the scale and it does it's start-up and goes to zero. I've never had a problem with it....and I usually go thru the zero process once a month, and I will on occasion toss on one of my weight checks just to double check the scale's accuracy.
My scale is now three years old and it's (knock on wood) still working fine.
FWIW
Dave
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
@ Dennis
I think our scales work exactly the same, except yours may not drift like mine.
I too calibrate using the supplied weights, then put the empty pan on the scale, and press ZERO. It now reads 0.0. When I lift the pan from the scale, it reads "-114.5", since my pan weighs 114.5 gn. When I put the empty pan back on it, it should automatically read 0.0. Any deviation from this, ie. "-114.6" when i lift the pan or "0.1" when I set it back on, is cause to reset the ZERO button. I hope that makes it clearer.
From reading customer reviews on Midway USA and Cabelas, it sounds like the 1500 you have is a better scale than my 750, so yours may not have these issues. And yes, Dave, definitely turn off the ceiling fan before using. Also, Dave your "avatar" photo cracks me up!
Quinny, how did those 175's do today?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Barrel-Nut..... ;D...Thanks. My brother gave me the idea to post my pic...http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...LYBROTHERS.jpg
I thought of posting one of me working.......http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ORK-AMMO-b.jpg.......but the general consensus was....maybe not so much. ;D
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
That's hilarious! Scary thing is, I KNOW people like that! Good folks....
Quinny, any luck with the 175's?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
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when i lift the pan or "0.1" when I set it back on, is cause to reset the ZERO button
This makes a lot more sense! ;)
I will definetly watch this in the future!
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Scary thing is, I KNOW people like that!
LMAO ;D
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel-nut
Quinny, any luck with the 175's?
I made up some of the 175's today using a couple of different powder charges from 42.5gn to 45gn of ADI 2208 (Varget). It was very windy out there - like 30-40mph which made things very difficult. The 175s seemed to shoot pretty well despite the conditions. I think that another round of testing may be needed to draw any conclusions with them, but it does look promising.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Good- always good to have another reason to head back to the range!
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quinny,
I shoot a Varmint Model 12 FVSS in 308 26" barrel with a Bell & Carlson Varmint/Tactical stock, not bedded. I did well with 168s like you. Then I read where 168s lose stability beyond 600 yds. Did more research and found this to be an accepted belief/opinion among many. I shoot groundhog out to 1k. (well shoot at anyway) With 168s over 500yds only had 2 kills, and at 6 to 800 I was all around them with no hits. After reading that beyond 600 most recommended 155s or 175s I went to work on a new load. In short I did best with Varget,fed 210m primers,lapua brass,and 155 SMK. 175SMK did well but 155s were a little better. Results, I can shoot 3 shot groups in the .2s. Consistently shoots 5 shot groups in .5s. Killed 3 hogs over 700 yds. with limited hunting time, and many very near misses well over 600. Hope the 175s do you good.
As for scales. With mine I can have NO air movement. Ceiling fan must be off and if its breezy out I have to shut the window. I have to be careful with the scale in front of me that I don't BREATH on it. I use 2 pans, 1 always on scale for weighing and with the other one I get a charge from the powder drop, then zero the scale, pour powder into pan on the scale,weigh, trickle some as necessary, pour back into 1st pan, put empty pan back on scale, zero, then weigh again, if satisfied fill case. I do this with EVERY load cause my scale will drift. All loads are weighed twice. I'm sure I will wear out my zero button but oh well. Hope some find this helpful.
kd.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
That is interesting what you say about the 168s losing stability over 600yds, I have never heard that report before. I have read quite a few people shooting the Savage F/TR recommending the 168gn SMK, which is the reason that I gave them a try. I have shot my rifle at 880yd with all 12 shots on target, having never shot at that distance before, and never shot lying down before.
All of the 155gn pills I have tried have not been very good in my rifle. I have not tried the 155gn Lapua's though, they may be worth a go. I will try another round with the 175s and see how they go.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I cannot confirm the 168 story. Just what I read and thought I'd pass it along and my experience. You cannot argue with impacts on the mark. If they work for you, shoot em baby shoot em. Hope you nail down a tack driver load.
kd.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
When you are doing your prep work before reloading are you checking the head space of the shoulders on your brass, are you weighing your brass and bullets for consistency? All this might sound a little anal but it all does factor in, it could be the difference between a .5 MOA and a .25 MOA shooter. I have also found that high caliber rifles especialy msgnum rifles shoot better groups out at 200 yards than at 100.
Just a thought
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
I have also found that high caliber rifles especialy msgnum rifles shoot better groups out at 200 yards than at 100
I site in at 100, then go to 300 on Mag calipers! I can get better groups at 300 vs 100!!!!!
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbradford71
When you are doing your prep work before reloading are you checking the head space of the shoulders on your brass, are you weighing your brass and bullets for consistency? All this might sound a little anal but it all does factor in, it could be the difference between a .5 MOA and a .25 MOA shooter. I have also found that high caliber rifles especialy msgnum rifles shoot better groups out at 200 yards than at 100.
Just a thought
I do weigh my brass and bullets for consistency, but I don't neck turn the cases, check for concentricity etc - I don't have the tools to check headspace etc.
I plan on doing a side by side test of the 175s and 168s this weekend - same day, same shooter, and see what happens.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
As already stated by Dennis, give 300 a try and let us know. Boattails in an upper caliber love to stabilize better at longer distances.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
check the article on 6mmbr.com from the competitive shooter under .308. He said to back off loads from full-power. His loads with 175's are nowhere near max and he's using Varget it says how many grains....
I have the F/TR also but it's not 'set up' yet in the optics dept so I don't know how it shoots. The rifle is absolutely HUGE too...
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I am considering putting a match barrel on the F/TR as well as bedding the action. I am wondering if anyone has done this with an F/TR and share their results - i.e. was there a noticable improvement in accuracy?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I use 175 smk's in same rifle. I quit weighing them but do measure the length to ogive on every bullet and sort them accordingly. You will find different lengths, sometimes .020 difference. They must be sorted and seated and oal to ogive checked again. Also get a runout indicator as a previous post said it will make a better handloader out of you, I know it did for me. I use 42.8 gr H4895 behind the 175 smk's for 3014 mv. I know it sounds hot, but I haven't had any problems. You must work up loads slowly to see if your rifle will handle them.
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
To the OP: How far off the lands are you seating the bullets ? What primers are you using ?
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
I must correct myself. The 42.8 gr load with the 175 smk is at 2832 mv not 3014. I confused it with a different rifle and load. They are 3.152 coal with a Sinclair nut, and I use Winchester WLR primers. I would have to check my chamber again as there is approx 2500 rounds thru this barrel and there is some throat erosion, but around .005-010 jump. Sorry for the screw up. Luckus
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckus
I must correct myself. The 42.8 gr load with the 175 smk is at 2832 mv not 3014. I confused it with a different rifle and load. They are 3.152 coal with a Sinclair nut, and I use Winchester WLR primers. I would have to check my chamber again as there is approx 2500 rounds thru this barrel and there is some throat erosion, but around .005-010 jump. Sorry for the screw up. Luckus
I'm so glad you cleared that up. I was trying to figure out how the he"" you got that kind of speed out of a 308! LOL
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Re: Improving Accuracy on Savage 12 F/TR
Quote:
Originally Posted by That1guy
To the OP: How far off the lands are you seating the bullets ? What primers are you using ?
The bullets are approx 0.020" off the lands, I did some testing with various seating depths and that is what worked best. I am using CCI-BR primers and Lapua brass.
It is currently at the gunsmith to bed the action properly, will see how things go after that. Hopefully early in the new year I will get a match barrel put on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckus
I must correct myself. The 42.8 gr load with the 175 smk is at 2832 mv not 3014. I confused it with a different rifle and load. They are 3.152 coal with a Sinclair nut, and I use Winchester WLR primers. I would have to check my chamber again as there is approx 2500 rounds thru this barrel and there is some throat erosion, but around .005-010 jump. Sorry for the screw up. Luckus
3.152 OAL is huge for a .308, the bullets must be barely being gripped by the case. I know that with a 155gn projectile, my max OAL is 2.880, anything longer would not chamber as the projectile hits the lands. The 175SMK is much shorter than the 155s, so I have no idea how you managed to get it out to 3.152...