110 Elite Precision in 223

I’m looking at buying a 110 EP in 223. I enjoy target shooting and am interested in going longer distance with this. I’m thinking F Class T/R mid and long range once I’m proficient with this. I am interested in 223 because I’m already set up to reload for it and enough experience in it to blow myself up. I know 6mm CR or 6.5 would do better but this is my path as of now. Looking for everyone’s input on a few questions.

• Does the 223 model (still) have the ejector issues I’ve seen discussed about the 6.5? That will kill the chances of me going this route if it does
• ive not seen much discussion on Berger 85.5gr and how anyones EP likes them? I have several hundred 73gr ELD left for 3-600. I’ve been told 80gr might go subsonic before 1000yds and local clubs target sensors require it to stay supersonic to register.
• what is average barrel life for 223 in this model?
• I’ve never had a savage before. But never shot F Class either. How is the trigger by F Class standards?
• This is not a savage specific question. Any suggestions on a Arca bipod.

Appreciate everyone reading and giving me their 2 cents.

I’ll simply field the first question. No there is no mass ejection problems with 223. Can it happen? Sure. All ejection issues have been identified & are easily remedied. If it happens, bring the situation here & we can easily address it.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

I’ll simply field the first question. No there is no mass ejection problems with 223. Can it happen? Sure. All ejection issues have been identified & are easily remedied. If it happens, bring the situation here & we can easily address it.

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Thank you. Would you use this to begin f class at mid and later long range?

I’m not a competitor. Several others here are way into comp. Fuj’ will likely chime in. He’s great with all this a-b-c-d-e-F-g Class stuff.. LOL!!

I will say, 223 is ok in 600yd, but really asking a lot of it at 1000yds. But any quick search brings up articles like this: https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...d-f-tr-record/ So, yes it certainly can & has been used effectively. (And that happened to be a Savage used as well.) 2011 though, sure.. many years ago, but still. It wouldn’t be choice, however, I’m a .264”/6.5mm guy, but that me. And I don’t compete as I said.,

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Originally Posted by JustSgtPat

Thank you. Would you use this to begin f class at mid and later long range?

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I shoot IBS & GBA competition at 600 & 1,000yds, Benchrest. F class shoot prone, on the ground. F Open can shoot all calibers, I think up to .408. F/Tr is limited to 308Win & 223Rem. Many Women & Youth shoot the 223. I suggest You attend a match and see if what is going on is for You. You can start with what You have. Be advised, nothing about this is cheep. Competing with a Savage is pushing a heavy load up hill. There are a few of us just stubborn enough to keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by Dave Hoback

I’ll simply field the first question. No there is no mass ejection problems with 223. Can it happen? Sure. All ejection issues have been identified & are easily remedied. If it happens, bring the situation here & we can easily address it.

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Dave, if it`s not too much trouble, specifically what has been shown to be the issues/causes for ejection failures in Savage rifles and what have been the fixes? The reason I ask is because i`ve been involved in discussions regarding this at our local range and I`d like to be able to give better informed guidance. Thanks very much!

First, I don't compete for a number of reasons, one being there is not a regular competition at my range. There is a really nice 1000yd range that I use every week.

Do you have other rifles? Have you shot in competition before?

GrenGuy makes a good point about visiting a match. Besides seeing how things go you can meet some of the folks there and let them know you are interested. If you already have a qualifying rifle you can try shooting a round or two. Might not be competitive but you can see what it is like. Most of the clubs have members with many rifles and it is not unusual to be loaned a rifle for a match once they get to know you. There are also some pretty good deals to be made when someone 'moves up' and wants to sell a rifle. You'll also see what kinds of rifles and cartridges folks prefer and be able to ask them why they have chosen theirs.

Also gives you a chance to look at some other rigs before paying a lot of money for a rifle. You might also be surprised at some of the 'budget' rigs.

Here is some info on the .223 that might be of interest.
https://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

FWIW, I would much rather shoot a .308 at 1000yd than a .223. Much easier for me to hit a milk jug simply due to wind drift.

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Originally Posted by Turkeytider

Dave, if it`s not too much trouble, specifically what has been shown to be the issues/causes for ejection failures in Savage rifles and what have been the fixes? The reason I ask is because i`ve been involved in discussions regarding this at our local range and I`d like to be able to give better informed guidance. Thanks very much!

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The ejection issue is mostly due to the extractor not holding onto the case long enough. When pulling the bolt back the ejector pushes the case. As the neck clears the chamber it hits the lug recess in the receiver. This 'jolt' can make the extractor lose it's 'grip' on the case and the case falls into the receiver area.

The fix is a larger ball under the ejector to hold it in place better. The Sticky section has an article on this.
https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...t-Ball-Upgrade

There is also a sticky about primary extraction issues
https://www.savageshooters.com/conte...ary-Extraction

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Originally Posted by Turkeytider

Dave, if it`s not too much trouble, specifically what has been shown to be the issues/causes for ejection failures in Savage rifles and what have been the fixes? The reason I ask is because i`ve been involved in discussions regarding this at our local range and I`d like to be able to give better informed guidance. Thanks very much!

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While it can happen to any, the most notable of recent times is the 6.5 Creedmoor. The straight case design(which have always been more problematic to feed/extract over their tapered case counterparts), coupled with the Savage bolt head design, as well I suspect, the length of the 6.5CM case & magazine feed style, were characteristics that seemed to create a Perfect Storm for the very specific problem the Creedmoor Savages encountered. Of course as is always the case, this quickly became a word of mouth scorn tour for those against Savage that this happened to ALL Savages, regardless of model, caliber or cartridge. It was quickly discerned to be an easy fix. Put a little bevel in the Ejector. (Or replace with an aftermarket). An easy fix that 100% cured the issue.

The other most notable problem is due to the extractor. Typically, replacing the factory .125” bearing ball with one that is .140”, takes care of ejection issues. Again though, as I said before it important to isolate precisely what is happening. I believe in fixing an issue before it’s even a problem. Any Savage I were to gets the full bolt treatment from Jump Street. I like those “Kinneys” Extractor/Ejector kits. At the same time I do all the bolt tricks, de-burring, polishing, adding bolt lift kit,, etc.

For example, my Model 12 developed ejection issues after about 1000 rounds. At first one or two a session, then every 5th round or more. When I put the new barrel on I removed the ejector cause I always single load. No issues at all with extraction, even with stuck cases. They stay held by the ejector until I pluck them out. Bolt has not been modified.

Dave, Charlie, thanks very much. I`ve not encountered any extraction or ejection issues with my 110 in .223 (knock on wood! ). Just to ensure that I never have a failure with the original set up, I did get one of the extractor/ejector kits. If you don`t want something to fail, buy a spare!

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Originally Posted by charlie b

For example, my Model 12 developed ejection issues after about 1000 rounds. At first one or two a session, then every 5th round or more. When I put the new barrel on I removed the ejector cause I always single load. No issues at all with extraction, even with stuck cases. They stay held by the ejector until I pluck them out. Bolt has not been modified.

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What I did too, no need to be slinging hand worked brass at the bench.

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Originally Posted by GrenGuy

I shoot IBS & GBA competition at 600 & 1,000yds, Benchrest. F class shoot prone, on the ground. F Open can shoot all calibers, I think up to .408. F/Tr is limited to 308Win & 223Rem. Many Women & Youth shoot the 223. I suggest You attend a match and see if what is going on is for You. You can start with what You have. Be advised, nothing about this is cheep. Competing with a Savage is pushing a heavy load up hill. There are a few of us just stubborn enough to keep doing it.

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as I’ve never competed I see this as a potentially easy way into competition. As I said I’ve got most of the supplies to reload for a few matches. Im thinking a 110 EP gets me in and is a rifle that will take some time for me to outgrow as I learn. Seems wasteful to even consider a $3500 rifle being new, but I can see outgrowing a cheaper rifle quickly if I stick with it.

My methodology, and I would like to hear others take on this, is it’s meeting in the middle on several fronts. 223 is cheaper to shoot than 308 per round and I have supplies to reload it now. It also means I don’t have to compete against big money set ups I don’t stand a chance against. And that’s not the rifles fault, it’s my lack experience. The 110 EP can handle the heavier Berger if I want to try 800 or 1000yds a few times. By that point I will know if this is something I will do long term and justify more money to go to a different round.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

First, I don't compete for a number of reasons, one being there is not a regular competition at my range. There is a really nice 1000yd range that I use every week.

Do you have other rifles? Have you shot in competition before?

GrenGuy makes a good point about visiting a match. Besides seeing how things go you can meet some of the folks there and let them know you are interested. If you already have a qualifying rifle you can try shooting a round or two. Might not be competitive but you can see what it is like. Most of the clubs have members with many rifles and it is not unusual to be loaned a rifle for a match once they get to know you. There are also some pretty good deals to be made when someone 'moves up' and wants to sell a rifle. You'll also see what kinds of rifles and cartridges folks prefer and be able to ask them why they have chosen theirs.

Also gives you a chance to look at some other rigs before paying a lot of money for a rifle. You might also be surprised at some of the 'budget' rigs.

Here is some info on the .223 that might be of interest.
https://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

FWIW, I would much rather shoot a .308 at 1000yd than a .223. Much easier for me to hit a milk jug simply due to wind drift.

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I am planning on a visit to an event soon. I have a few rifles that I could shoot in service division, both ar’s. And I intend to do so to fill out the day while also attempting TR. I bought a Howa 1500 in 223 with the intention of using it as my entry rifle. But after a short time I learned it was predictable and repeatable to 400yds, after that it went south. And with the 1-9 twist and 20” barrel it couldn’t handle the heavier bullets based on the calculations.

My thinking is the 110EP could be good at 3-5-600. Once I have learned to to read wind and how to adjust, I could try 800 thru 1000 with much heavier Bergers. If I can afford to move up (new rifle and dies as one time expenses and brass, powder and bullets as consumables) then I will. This route is pretty much based on the fact I have supplies and dies for 223 now. If I had 308 I would go that route.

Don't know if this will help but
My 12 FV (26 in barrel) with 1:9 twist shoots 77 gr SMKs and TMKs and 77 gr Nosler CCs better than any other bullet weight - they aren't supposed to stabilize in that twist.
The 77 gr bullets average 0.269 for 452 5-round groups at 100 yards. The 69s average 0.310 for 394 5-round groups.
The 20-inch barrel you have will have slightly slower muzzle velocity, but the rotation will be the same.
None of my loads are near Pmax, so you probably could increase your powder charge slightly and get the same results.

I doubt a 1:9 twist would shoot 80 gr bullets, but, then again, I doubted that would shoot 77 gr bullets accurately until it showed me it really shot them well.
My 12 FV actually might have a twist that is a bit faster than spec.
You'll never know if you don't try heavier bullets.

I mentioned the matches because some are limited in ranges. Out to 600yd I'd use a .223.

I'd still hold off on the rifle choice until you see how things go. I would have been comfortable with my Axis in an informal match. It had a 22" heavy barrel (Walmart special) and would hold 1/2MOA. Better than MOA at 600yd using 77gm SMK's. The only real upgrades it had was a Boyd's stock and Vortex Diamondback scope. The 16x scope did a lot better at 600 than the 12x it came with.

Your Howa might work with the 77SMK's and might not. It should do OK with the 69SMK's which also did ok out to 600 for me. I'd try the 77's.

Have you shot much out past 400yd? It is mostly a wind game at that point.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I mentioned the matches because some are limited in ranges. Out to 600yd I'd use a .223.

I'd still hold off on the rifle choice until you see how things go. I would have been comfortable with my Axis in an informal match. It had a 22" heavy barrel (Walmart special) and would hold 1/2MOA. Better than MOA at 600yd using 77gm SMK's. The only real upgrades it had was a Boyd's stock and Vortex Diamondback scope. The 16x scope did a lot better at 600 than the 12x it came with.

Your Howa might work with the 77SMK's and might not. It should do OK with the 69SMK's which also did ok out to 600 for me. I'd try the 77's.

Have you shot much out past 400yd? It is mostly a wind game at that point.

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I have shot past 400, but the accuracy was not great. I could hit at a steel plate at 600 pretty consistently. But it was a good size plate and I was all over it. I will get to a match before I buy a rifle for sure. This would be a major time and money investment. The nearest range over 200yds is over an hour away. And the matches are about 3 hours away. So I will not be rushing.

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Originally Posted by CFJunkie

Don't know if this will help but
My 12 FV (26 in barrel) with 1:9 twist shoots 77 gr SMKs and TMKs and 77 gr Nosler CCs better than any other bullet weight - they aren't supposed to stabilize in that twist.
The 77 gr bullets average 0.269 for 452 5-round groups at 100 yards. The 69s average 0.310 for 394 5-round groups.
The 20-inch barrel you have will have slightly slower muzzle velocity, but the rotation will be the same.
None of my loads are near Pmax, so you probably could increase your powder charge slightly and get the same results.

I doubt a 1:9 twist would shoot 80 gr bullets, but, then again, I doubted that would shoot 77 gr bullets accurately until it showed me it really shot them well.
My 12 FV actually might have a twist that is a bit faster than spec.
You'll never know if you don't try heavier bullets.

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I assume the 1/7 twist in the 110 along with added length will give me a better shot at 80gr +. And on windy days even at 300yds I assume a heavier bullet are easier to handle.

A 1:7 twist .223 barrel will easily handle 80 grain bullets. 80 grain bullets should be stabilized by 1:8 twists as well.
The 1:7 should also stabilize 90 grain bullets.

Heavier bullets with their higher BCs and enough velocity should reach out much further then 300 yds.
I wouldn't expect either the 80s or 90s to fit in an AR Mag or probably even a Savage bolt action or AICS mag.

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Originally Posted by JustSgtPat

I have shot past 400, but the accuracy was not great. I could hit at a steel plate at 600 pretty consistently. But it was a good size plate and I was all over it. I will get to a match before I buy a rifle for sure. This would be a major time and money investment. The nearest range over 200yds is over an hour away. And the matches are about 3 hours away. So I will not be rushing.

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You are in the same as I am. I joined a new range this year. Only one within just over an hour with anything over 100yds. Even it’s only 300yds, but it’s a really nice range & also has concrete pistol ranges to run drills. Holster drawing, Mag reloads, etc. But still, the distance. And I can’t drive anymore, makes it worse.. UHHHGG! I hate this place!

CF is correct. 1:8 is good up to 80, no problem. That’s what I use in my AR’s. And the 1:7 will handle the longest, heaviest .224” pills made! Which I guess are the 90gr VLD’s. (You see articles claiming 1:6.5 is needed, but I beg to differ.)

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Originally Posted by JustSgtPat

I have shot past 400, but the accuracy was not great. I could hit at a steel plate at 600 pretty consistently. But it was a good size plate and I was all over it. I will get to a match before I buy a rifle for sure. This would be a major time and money investment. The nearest range over 200yds is over an hour away. And the matches are about 3 hours away. So I will not be rushing.

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I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

I wasn’t going to say anything, and since there is no way for us to verify… but Charlie, I agree 100%. I can’t tell you how many former military shooter I ran into while I was an Instructor, who would blame every gun for their own accuracy issues, due to poor consistency. Here are the a couple statements I was tuned in to listen for: “I’m just having a BAD day, accuracy wise.” While those who follow proper Fundamentals of shooting can vary in consistency somewhat from day to day, this is typically caused by something pretty substantial. Feeling under the weather, mentally unfocused, etc. And a “Bad Day” for a good shooter is the difference from shooting 1MOA, to 1.5-2MOA…MAX! The other line I would listen for was, “I’m really accurate with X-Gun, but I just can’t shoot Y-Gun at ALL!” I would tell people proper Fundamentals don’t know or care what firearm you are shooting. And that if they were to line up a Dozen or more quality pistols, I would shoot them ALL, 1 by 1, with very similar accuracy.

Again though, like I said, there is no way for us to verify that. Unless people want to start recording video of themselves shooting for us to see. LOL!

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

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Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

In my club we have a lady who shoots .223 for Palma matches and often wins. She is an elite shooter who will travel with our US team this year. So people can have success with the .223 at 1000 yds. As the others have noted, you will have better odds of success at 600 than 1000 yds at least initially. The points made about twist and bullet choice are very true. In addition, if you have never shot at 1000 before you will have to learn to read the wind, a bigger factor than if you were competing at 600 yds. Yes with the right barrel and bullets you can do well at 1000 yds.

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Originally Posted by JustSgtPat

Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

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LOL

It is rewarding when you find a group of folks to shoot with. Good luck in your quest.

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Originally Posted by JustSgtPat

Well I was a SAW gunner so not much transfers to this! I do realize that I probably know just enough to drive myself crazy. But I have always enjoyed afternoons at the range, in and out of uniform. And from what I have seen in the forums the brotherhood is similar also. I look forward to my chance to speed a few days just learning and watching at a match.

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Replied in the wrong place.

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Originally Posted by Palmafiddleman

In my club we have a lady who shoots .223 for Palma matches and often wins. She is an elite shooter who will travel with our US team this year. So people can have success with the .223 at 1000 yds. As the others have noted, you will have better odds of success at 600 than 1000 yds at least initially. The points made about twist and bullet choice are very true. In addition, if you have never shot at 1000 before you will have to learn to read the wind, a bigger factor than if you were competing at 600 yds. Yes with the right barrel and bullets you can do well at 1000 yds.

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While as we’ve discussed, a person can certainly use 223 at 1000yds, but in our world now of the 6mm’s, the 223 won’t even be remotely competitive. Obviously, doesn’t apply in the 223/308 only division.

Yep. IIRC, F-TR is .223 or .308, scope and bipod w/rear bag, prone. US Palma is .223 or .308, open sights, unsupported prone. International Palma is .308 and 155gn bullets. There was some talk of Palma rule changes, like adding scopes and/or cartridges, but, I haven't seen anything on that yet. Probably won't until the new Army cartridge is adopted fully. Then might see it added to the US Palma and F-TR.

With the faster twist, 80 or 90gn bullets, and a longish barrel I suspect a .223 would be give the .308 loads a run for their money at 1000yd. The only problem would be getting them to fit in a magazine. Don't think AICS mags would allow seating them out very far.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

I hate to say this, but, it may not have been your rifle. When I got my .223 it was my first accurate rifle in over 20 years. I had grown up with military rifles and a deer rifle that was never shot past 100yd. When I was in my 20's I could hit military targets at 400yd with open sights. The Axis was much more accurate and was my first attempt at range since the 70's. I found myself able to squeak out MOA groups, but, could not seem to break that limit.

I finally had to admit it was me and not the rifle. Took several range sessions and a good bag/rest combination before I could get my technique improved. Back to basics kind of thing. Solid position, trigger control, breathing, etc. I finally got myself to settle down and I could get consistent 1/2MOA groups. I just cannot get below that consistently, even with a much better rifle. And yes, it is me. I am just not patient enough and I lose concentration easily.

After that I started on my wind reading at longer ranges. That was another big step for me and I am still not that good at it.

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You sound like me, a little of it is age, but I've never been a patient person. It gets even worse when I shoot four rounds close together, then the pressure is on to not screw up the fifth one. It happens too often to be just bad luck!

Yep, I know the feeling well LOL I can also tell the difference when I get toward the end of a session.

Happens to me as well but am getting better. Confidence in your equipment and load really help.

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Originally Posted by charlie b

LOL

It is rewarding when you find a group of folks to shoot with. Good luck in your quest.

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Thank you. There is a mid-range match in two weeks I plan to attend. The comradery is just as important as the shooting if not more so!