Rifle barrel change

I have a savage axis xp in .308. I have made a few upgrades and I am now considering to rebarrel it in a few months from the sporter barrel to a bull barrel. That means I have the chance to pick a different caliber considering it is a short action with the same .473" rim diameter. The primary purpose will be long range paper hole punching and I would like to eventually try to shoot at 1000+ yds. The second purpose would be medium game hunting (whitetail) at a range of probably 250-500 yds with the occasional big game hunt like elk at shorter ranges (100-300 yds). Should I stick with the 308 or should I go with something like the 6.5 creed, 7mm-08, or 338 Fed?

Any should work. I do not think the 338 federal would be my first choice for long range shooting. I would probably lean heavily towards the 6.5 Creedmoor due to much better bc's. Might even consider the 6mm Creedmoor but that would start getting a bit light for elk in my opinion. I really like the 7mm-08 for hunting. That caliber would be great for the hunting ranges you are looking at but I think it may fall behind the Creedmoor when it comes to long range paper punching!

I think you need more than one gun.
Mind you all the cartridges you mention are good ones, and all have their place to excell.
But i think your trying to stretch things a bit.

The Axis receiver is actually a long action so you are not limited to short action calbers. That being said I agree you are asking for a lot from just one round. I think the 6.5 is closest to meeting your requirements. Get the barrel threaded and put a good brake on it...really makes it more enjoyable to shoot (for you at least :cool: ) and to be able to spot your own shots.

Everyone can always use another excuse to buy another gun, right ;) . I am only home 2-3 months out of the year, so this is a question for the future. I'll keep doing some research in the meantime.

none of these are better than 308 win period.
none are valid accurate 1000 yard rounds tho 308 is shot at 1000.( loooong bbls like 30-34")
while longer shots have been made, the mil considers the 308 with a 175 an 800 yard round and super sonic to 1000.
to be realistic at 1000 you need a bigger 300 wsm or smaller case, 6 bra or 6 dasher( 308 bolt face).
(i shoot long range paper,600.1000, 2000....i have never seen a 6.5 creedless at a match)
you can read about my latest 308 win in the build forum

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Originally Posted by CCRBTH

I have a savage axis xp in .308. I have made a few upgrades and I am now considering to rebarrel it in a few months from the sporter barrel to a bull barrel. That means I have the chance to pick a different caliber considering it is a short action with the same .473" rim diameter. The primary purpose will be long range paper hole punching and I would like to eventually try to shoot at 1000+ yds. The second purpose would be medium game hunting (whitetail) at a range of probably 250-500 yds with the occasional big game hunt like elk at shorter ranges (100-300 yds). Should I stick with the 308 or should I go with something like the 6.5 creed, 7mm-08, or 338 Fed?

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and maybe ask management to put this up in the savage build section

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

and maybe ask management to put this up in the savage build section

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I placed this under the general rife discussion because the topic was cartridge selection and the fact that it is a savage does not affect the cartridge characteristics. If you think it belongs under savage build section, please contact management for me because I am a new member and cant DM people.

Thanks for your input above, I will definitely check out your build. I will probably bring my paper punching/ gong ringing in a few hundred yards. Also, I was surprised when you said 1000yrd competition shooters use 30" barrels, definitely not for my uses XD cant imagine trying to pack that in the car. I guess it adds weight and increase the velocity to reach out that far. Out of pure curiosity, wouldn't a shorter barrel be more accurate due to tolerances and barrel vibrations? I guess finding the perfect handload would be that much more important to match the barrel harmonics for those palma shooters.

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

none of these are better than 308 win period.
none are valid accurate 1000 yard rounds tho 308 is shot at 1000.( loooong bbls like 30-34")
while longer shots have been made, the mil considers the 308 with a 175 an 800 yard round and super sonic to 1000.

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I have never seen a 308 in Fclass. Don't see it in benchrest either. The fact that the 308 cant compete with any Fclass cartridge and that the 6.5 Creedmoor is way more popular than the 308 in PRS Like 100 to zero says you are illinformed. You competed against a Creedmoor at 2000 on your way to the two man world champion title contest. You were not using your 308.

very selective discussion
PALMA is ONLY 308, 800.900.1000 yards the adult version of f class.
the 600 yard small group in benchrest was held by a 308 win until last year when it was beat by a dasher clone.
the creedmore i shot against in the 2000 yard match was a 6 creed...and had zero luck at 2000.
prs is not an ACCURACY game unlike benchrest and f class.
its not hard to produce negative results with selective use of data, but someone may actually know
the real story and post it.
he never said he wanted to shoot fclass
he never said he wanted to shoot 2000 yards
he never said he wanted to shoot prs,
glad you were able to stay on topic

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

I have never seen a 308 in Fclass. Don't see it in benchrest either. The fact that the 308 cant compete with any Fclass cartridge and that the 6.5 Creedmoor is way more popular than the 308 in PRS Like 100 to zero says you are illinformed. You competed against a Creedmoor at 2000 on your way to the two man world champion title contest. You were not using your 308.

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Originally Posted by celltech

The Axis receiver is actually a long action so you are not limited to short action calbers. That being said I agree you are asking for a lot from just one round. I think the 6.5 is closest to meeting your requirements. Get the barrel threaded and put a good brake on it...really makes it more enjoyable to shoot (for you at least :cool: ) and to be able to spot your own shots.

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With this good piece of advice and covering more bases.....The .284 Winchester.
with a 8.5 twist barrel.

this is a good idea
with 180 bullets and along throat( seat the bullets long/add case capacity).
you will need to do some research. it may take a long bbl

this round has successfully shot long range and accurately

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

With this good piece of advice and covering more bases.....The .284 Winchester.
with a 8.5 twist barrel.

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

very selective discussion
PALMA is ONLY 308, 800.900.1000 yards the adult version of f class.
the 600 yard small group in benchrest was held by a 308 win until last year when it was beat by a dasher clone.
the creedmore i shot against in the 2000 yard match was a 6 creed...and had zero luck at 2000.
prs is not an ACCURACY game unlike benchrest and f class.
its not hard to produce negative results with selective use of data, but someone may actually know
the real story and post it.
he never said he wanted to shoot fclass
he never said he wanted to shoot 2000 yards
he never said he wanted to shoot prs,
glad you were able to stay on topic

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You stated this...

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none of these are better than 308 win period.

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I disagree. Your statement will only hold up in Palma and FTR where it has zero competition with the Creedmoor or the 7mm-08 or anything else for that matter. The 6.5 Creedmoor will dominate the 308 in straight up competition to 400 to 1200 yards in the hands of the average guy and the hands of the professional as will the 7mm08.

Mike, with all do respect, Ill will stay on topic when you stop making outlandish claims.

Fuj,
Now you are crawling in my space!

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With this good piece of advice and covering more bases.....The .284 Winchester.
with a 8.5 twist barrel.

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But I have used the lesser 7mm08 for some amazing groups using 175's and 163's.

Well for once i'm going to somewhat agree with Mikey, at least as far as this post goes.
For most of what the OP wants to accomplish, the 308 would be a good choice, especially for the hunting part due to bullet selection.
Along with the 06, they have been being used for 1000 yd competition at places like Camp Perry for a very long time.
We use them for practice shooting at rocks at our camp even further than 1000 yds.
My grandson has a Savage model 10 FCP in 308 and i think its the most accurate factory rifle ive ever seen.
We dont shoot for groups, at all, ever, in fact i could actually care less about small groups.
Our interest lies in the rifle being able to repeat hits on the rocks we shoot at at the distances we hunt.
And most importantly, us not losing the target due to recoil, and scoring a second round hit if the first one fails, regardless as to how much.
Using the hammer is the issue, at least to a point, not the actual hammer itself.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Well for once i'm going to somewhat agree with Mikey, at least as far as this post goes.
For most of what the OP wants to accomplish, the 308 would be a good choice, especially for the hunting part due to bullet selection.
Along with the 06, they have been being used for 1000 yd competition at places like Camp Perry for a very long time.
We use them for practice shooting at rocks at our camp even further than 1000 yds.
My grandson has a Savage model 10 FCP in 308 and i think its the most accurate factory rifle ive ever seen.
We dont shoot for groups, at all, ever, in fact i could actually care less about small groups.
Our interest lies in the rifle being able to repeat hits on the rocks we shoot at at the distances we hunt.
And most importantly, us not losing the target due to recoil, and scoring a second round hit if the first one fails, regardless as to how much.
Using the hammer is the issue, at least to a point, not the actual hammer itself.

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I'm good with that. as long as we state that the 308 and the 30-06 are used at those ranges in competition because they are military cartridges. The only cartridge they are seen competing against successfully is the 223/556. If the 338 federal had been the GI cartridge it would be the one that was in competition.

My position was based on watching guys come to the firing line and get frustrated at their low "308" scores in F/TR. Guys like me, Mike, you and better than us know how to make it work. Give that same guy a 6.5 Creedmoor and he stays in the 10 ring(and X) at 600 yards with no problems. The 308 takes a skilled shooter reloader to shoot to 600 and +, a first time shooter with a little coaching is succesful right out of the gate. I wonder why that is?

Yobuck, how old is your grandson? :)

in spite or your opinion i will stick with mine.
we had a guy bring a 6.5 cm to a 600 yard match. he could not hit the target in his first 20 shots. when all his ammo was gone he left with a couple of hits.
you ignored the fact that 600 yd benchrest record was held by a 308 win for years until recently. you say it is palma and fclass only BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE.
there are no 6.5 creenmore benchrest records.
inspite of all the hype about 6.5 cm...THERE ARE NO COMPETITIVE 6.5 CM'S IN BR OR F CLASS...where accuracy counts.
\claim what you want...the facts from the results do not support your opinion

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

I'm good with that. as long as we state that the 308 and the 30-06 are used at those ranges in competition because they are military cartridges. The only cartridge they are seen competing against successfully is the 223/556. If the 338 federal had been the GI cartridge it would be the one that was in competition.

My position was based on watching guys come to the firing line and get frustrated at their low "308" scores in F/TR. Guys like me, Mike, you and better than us know how to make it work. Give that same guy a 6.5 Creedmoor and he stays in the 10 ring(and X) at 600 yards with no problems. The 308 takes a skilled shooter reloader to shoot to 600 and +, a first time shooter with a little coaching is succesful right out of the gate. I wonder why that is?

Yobuck, how old is your grandson? :)

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

in spite or your opinion i will stick with mine.
we had a guy bring a 6.5 cm to a 600 yard match. he could not hit the target in his first 20 shots. when all his ammo was gone he left with a couple of hits.
you ignored the fact that 600 yd benchrest record was held by a 308 win for years until recently. you say it is palma and fclass only BUT THAT IS NOT TRUE.
there are no 6.5 creenmore benchrest records.
inspite of all the hype about 6.5 cm...THERE ARE NO COMPETITIVE 6.5 CM'S IN BR OR F CLASS...where accuracy counts.
\claim what you want...the facts from the results do not support your opinion

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Point is that the 6.5 Creedmore will outshout a 308 at medium to long range all day everyday with equivalent shooters. For hunting the downrange ballistics are better. Recoil is lower.

You get your 308 and Ill bring a 6.5 Creedmoor. 12lb maximum. Get 60 rounds together and I will get 60. We will compete at 800 and 1000 yards for smallest groups. Range must be 1000 feet or lower elevation. 5,000 into the pot. Winner takes all.

so just to be clear.
my OPINION is based on documented FACTS,
your OPINION is based on YOUR OPINION.
INSTEAD OF A MADE UP MATCH,
just bring your 6.5 to any fclass match.palma match.
and PUBLISH the results, vs OPINION.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Point is that the 6.5 Creedmore will outshout a 308 at medium to long range all day everyday with equivalent shooters. For hunting the downrange ballistics are better. Recoil is lower.

You get your 308 and Ill bring a 6.5 Creedmoor. 12lb maximum. Get 60 rounds together and I will get 60. We will compete at 800 and 1000 yards for smallest groups. Range must be 1000 feet or lower elevation. 5,000 into the pot. Winner takes all.

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i have been scouring the internet for actual DATA of 308 vs 6.5 SHOOTING ACCURACY.
zero zip nada
one big video....the rifles are not the same, and in spite of the claim, THEN NEVER SHOOT AND MEASURE GROUPS.
they make claims based on BALLISTIC DATA, but zero real world feed back.
big hunting site article, up front lets talk about accuracy...BUT THEY NEVER DO AN ACCURACY SHOOT. just charts and graphs.
even justifies with"mil data" that shows 6.5 netter than 308 175 load EXCEPT the 175 data is old/out of date, not the current load.
what i can see is they are very close. but i have yet to see a side by side, comparable rifles, target data.

side note the current mil smk 175 /imr4064 sniper load is done on high speed production equipment and still is producing 1.x" at 300 yards,
the spec is 3.5 max at 300, all lots have been way under.

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

i have been scouring the internet for actual DATA of 308 vs 6.5 SHOOTING ACCURACY.
zero zip nada
one big video....the rifles are not the same, and in spite of the claim, THEN NEVER SHOOT AND MEASURE GROUPS.
they make claims based on BALLISTIC DATA, but zero real world feed back.
big hunting site article, up front lets talk about accuracy...BUT THEY NEVER DO AN ACCURACY SHOOT. just charts and graphs.
even justifies with"mil data" that shows 6.5 netter than 308 175 load EXCEPT the 175 data is old/out of date, not the current load.
what i can see is they are very close. but i have yet to see a side by side, comparable rifles, target data.

side note the current mil smk 175 /imr4064 sniper load is done on high speed production equipment and still is producing 1.x" at 300 yards,
the spec is 3.5 max at 300, all lots have been way under.

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Look Mike, I am registered NRA High Master in FTR for mid and long range. I never shot Palma. I have 10,000 plus round shooting from 400 to 1200 yards with a Creedmoor. Im not a world champion but I think MY FTR gun will compete with you if not beat you. My 6.5 creed smokes my FTR rifle without trying.

Since you do not understand how search engine query works I will help you.

https://bfy.tw/PkxG

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+for+long+...=v217-1&ia=web

Maybe try 308 with something like this for the paper punching only? It looks really cool!

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/...-line-bullets/

actually you proved my point with your incorrect statement.( i do know how to search, your search is just as bad as mine0
the FIRST LINK IN YOUR SEARCH LINK HAS ZERO DOWN RANGE TARGET DATA......ZERO.
all info is charts and graphs based on data claimed by the ammo maker.

REAL WORLD...how much does your 6.5 cm look like his axis ?
how long is your bbl ?
does it weigh less than 12 lbs ??
bottom line, in real world he has no reason to change calibers.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Look Mike, I am registered NRA High Master in FTR for mid and long range. I never shot Palma. I have 10,000 plus round shooting from 400 to 1200 yards with a Creedmoor. Im not a world champion but I think MY FTR gun will compete with you if not beat you. My 6.5 creed smokes my FTR rifle without trying.

Since you do not understand how search engine query works I will help you.

https://bfy.tw/PkxG

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+for+long+...=v217-1&ia=web

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running solids in target loads may require a new throat/neck.
ohh and they aint cheap...go look at the bullet prices...bullets not ammo

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Originally Posted by CCRBTH

Maybe try 308 with something like this for the paper punching only? It looks really cool!

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/...-line-bullets/

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[QUOTE=Robinhood;

Yobuck, how old is your grandson? :)[/QUOTE]

The one owning the 308 is now 20 and a college student.
We bought him a Savage Axis in 243 when he was about 11 as i recall, and the 308 when he was about 13 or 14.
He had been shooting our 223s since he was big enough to shoot, and had considerable practice with those at rocks and clay birds.
The Axis was just a walking around type hunting gun, but he really learned to shoot well at distance using the 308.
My oldest grandson is now 40, and a trauma surgeon at the childrens hospital in Philly, and known as CHOP.
He is a shooter/hunter also, but due to his profession dosent get much time.
Theres much demand for trauma surgeons in places like Philly, and just across the river is Camden NJ.
He also has a son who is now 12, one of my 7 great grand children.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Fuj,
Now you are crawling in my space!

But I have used the lesser 7mm08 for some amazing groups using 175's and 163's.

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And why I developed the SA284. That shortened .284 has the same
overall length as the 7/08, and the ability to use 3 more grains of
powder. In my long throated test barrel. I'm currently working with the
183 pointed Sierras. With Ramshot Hunter, I'ts doing better then the
180 bergers. and I'm only using a 26 inch, 8.7 twister. Next barrel will
be a 29" (finished) and 8.5 twist. Plan is to hang out around the 2800
range and shoot bug holes at 300. Mid South shooters is shipping me
1000 of the Sierras, I like them that much with this wild cat. Maybe
prime time this coming season. 1000 yard Ridge was canceled this past
year because of Covid.

As for the 6.5 Creedmoor versus the .308 ?? Yeah there's no debate there.
Sure impressed our armed forces to proceed chambering the cartridge.
I no longer shoot one. I got bored with it.....:cool:

if you really want to shoot bug holes at long range get away from production bullets.
they all loose precision the further you shoot.
i would recommend a true custom bullet, with a berger as a first alternate.

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

And why I developed the SA284. That shortened .284 has the same
overall length as the 7/08, and the ability to use 3 more grains of
powder. In my long throated test barrel. I'm currently working with the
183 pointed Sierras. With Ramshot Hunter, I'ts doing better then the
180 bergers. and I'm only using a 26 inch, 8.7 twister. Next barrel will
be a 29" (finished) and 8.5 twist. Plan is to hang out around the 2800
range and shoot bug holes at 300. Mid South shooters is shipping me
1000 of the Sierras, I like them that much with this wild cat. Maybe
prime time this coming season. 1000 yard Ridge was canceled this past
year because of Covid.

As for the 6.5 Creedmoor versus the .308 ?? Yeah there's no debate there.
Sure impressed our armed forces to proceed chambering the cartridge.
I no longer shoot one. I got bored with it.....:cool:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

if you really want to shoot bug holes at long range get away from production bullets.
they all loose precision the further you shoot.
i would recommend a true custom bullet, with a berger as a first alternate.

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!:crazy::

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

if you really want to shoot bug holes at long range get away from production bullets.
they all loose precision the further you shoot.
i would recommend a true custom bullet, with a berger as a first alternate.

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This would certainly appear to be true in long range benchrest.
But then at least as for the heavy gun 10 shot record, the bug hole hasent moved in close to 10 years.
Im not certain of the bullet used for that now old bughole, but im also not so sure it was a custom.
300 WSM yes but again dont remember the bullet used.

at least one more reason some people are ignored
"But then at least as for the heavy gun 10 shot record, the bug hole hasent moved in close to 10 years."

current record and DATE
Tim Height
3.650 – 10/13/2019

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Originally Posted by yobuck

This would certainly appear to be true in long range benchrest.
But then at least as for the heavy gun 10 shot record, the bug hole hasent moved in close to 10 years.
Im not certain of the bullet used for that now old bughole, but im also not so sure it was a custom.
300 WSM yes but again dont remember the bullet used.

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Yobuck.....You may be referring to Matt Kline's record shoot at Willamsport
10 years ago. Yes it was as WSM . Used the Berger 210 VLD in heavy gun.
2.815 for the 10 shots.....Still to be beat but, them New Hornady's sitting
on top the Sherman will be knocking on the door.

Wilson holds the 1000 yard 5 shot light gun record at 1.068 / 50-5x / 6braw,
103gr Vapor Trails.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

if you really want to shoot bug holes at long range get away from production bullets.
they all loose precision the further you shoot.
i would recommend a true custom bullet, with a berger as a first alternate.

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Mike, Will you please stay on topic.

nice try
but since 7mms were brought up as an option, i am on topic.
you will have to ask fuj if he is on topic.

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Mike, Will you please stay on topic.

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Originally Posted by mikeinco

nice try
but since 7mms were brought up as an option, i am on topic.
you will have to ask fuj if he is on topic.

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Did you do a lot of acid back in the day?

ascorbic acid was my choice
stay on topic

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Originally Posted by Robinhood

Did you do a lot of acid back in the day?

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Originally Posted by Fuj'

Yobuck.....You may be referring to Matt Kline's record shoot at Willamsport
10 years ago. Yes it was as WSM . Used the Berger 210 VLD in heavy gun.
2.815 for the 10 shots.....Still to be beat but, them New Hornady's sitting
on top the Sherman will be knocking on the door.

Wilson holds the 1000 yard 5 shot light gun record at 1.068 / 50-5x / 6braw,
103gr Vapor Trails.

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Yes i was referring to Matt Kline’s record, and since i dont pay all that much attention to trivial things, i hadnt heard it had been broken.
But as i understand your comment, it actually hasent been.
I am aware also that new 5 shot records have been set, and im aware of the 10 shot (light gun) record set out in Montana a couple years back.
It is also somewhat interesting to note that it took about 14 years to beat John Voniada’s heavy gun record set at Williamsport with a non custom bullet.
Sooner or later a new record will emerge, and it will have far more to do with the luck of the draw as for the conditions during the relay than the bullet used.

Yep

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Sooner or later a new record will emerge, and it will have far more to do with the luck of the draw as for the conditions during the relay than the bullet used.

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Originally Posted by yobuck

Sooner or later a new record will emerge, and it will have far more to do with the luck of the draw as for the conditions during the relay than the bullet used.

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Absolutely.....

I'm just going to touch on availability of hand made 7mm/ 284 bullets.
Not much if any. Some CNC'd and rebated ones that looks like someone
pushed in the tail of a Hornady A-tip. Bart and the new owner of JLK
say they might have something in the future. I have time invested into
Sierra over the years that I'm confident with the ammo I take to the
line with me.....Most hand made bullet makes are keyed on 6mm, and
6.5mm Practically nothing in the heavies. and the latest lot sort I got
from the Berger 180 Hybrids !!! I'll stick with Sierra for this latest Cat.

The very first 162 gr Hornady BTHP match bullets from about 1970, had a much better BC than the second generation a few years later.
I came along after the switch and all the originals were gobbled up. I still have one full box of them and quite a few boxes of the gen 2s.
My hunting buddy has about 10 boxes of them. The old 168 JLKs were very good also, and possibly even better in some respects than the Hornadys.
Availability dried up however and unless you had a stash of them there was no point to using them. I probably have a few of those also.
Same goes for the A maxes, some preferred using those, but they kept changing the tips on the things.
wThe early ones having the silver metal tips were actually good bullets, but for some reason they changed them over to a plastic tip.
Sierra made a 30 cal 250 gr SMK for a period of time before they switched to the 240 gr.
Earl Chronisters 10 shot heavy gun record was with those 250 gr bullets.
They also made a 320 gr 338 bullet before the 300 gr.
I have a few of those, and know a guy with quite a few.
Earl had some influence with the old generation at Sierra, and convinced them to do things they might not have done otherwise.
In that regard the Williamsport club has contributed far more than just shooters.