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i was about 25 feet away from a 60'' + moose and he was walking thru some brush, .308 did not hit him. what round would be better for that kind of situation? i center mass him in the scope twice and not luck, i was using 150's also. would brush throw it off that close?
i wanted to throw the precision 10 in the river after that. i shot 2 rounds at a stump and was right on. i am thinking 30-06 now.
Two shots...one to clear the obstacles and the other for the intended target.
More powder won't help. Heavier bullet will help some, but, a deflection is a deflection.
Sorry bud.
If you hit "brush" that big (to cause a complete miss at 25 feet with a 308) not much is going to go through it.
Easy to miss at very close ranges with a scope (you don't know what you are shooting at cause all you see is hair - bad idea to take that shot - easy to end up with a really bad gut shot). Did you find out what you hit? It would certainly be visible if you hit a limb.
You have to ask yourself, how much energy does a 150 grain .308 expend going thru the brush making it to the target? I'm not sure but your probably better off not knowing. Is it the rifle's fault? ;D
To much velocity and to light construction a bullet.
Your bullets blew up. Set up a target and try it out. Will happen every time. Now you know why the military uses FMJ ammo.
150 grain is on the light side for elk and moose anyways. Get some 180 grain Hornady SP flat base.
Speer Deep Curl or something tough. For big game flat base bullets fly straight on and don't yaw so much after impact. Also some brands like Speer make boat tail bullets with lighter jackets than there flat base bullets. Ballistic tipped bullets like Nosler, well they sell good don't they. I'm a big fan of Hornady Interlock bullets just old fashion soft noses. At 308 Win velocity it should be enough bullet. Now I suppose you'll tell us that's what you had and I''ll be here with my chin dragging.
no comment
i was using federal brand. sportsman warehouse ran out of other brands and they were the only ones left. the brush was not that bad but enuff to where i could only see the moose outline. i was told by my inlaw that a 30-30 would have done the trick, i have a brand new 30-30 that i was gonna bring but i chose the 308.
A 150 gr. 308 bullet will blow through 1/4" steel, regardless of the bullet construction. My 6.5x55 shooting a 140 grain Sierra GK (soft nosed bullet) will blow through 1/4" steel from 450 yards. This is the farthest I've tested it. I doubt your bullet blew up, and I can also tell you that a 30/30 would not have been any better. You were either trying to shoot through a tree trunk, or flat out missed. Here's an interesting test on bullet deflection:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40_2.htm
A .45-70 will get you some serious penetration. That's my brush gun. Chances of a Punch bullet breaking up before reaching the target? Somewhere between zero and slim-to-none.
One thing I think we should all be able to agree on is bullets will stay together better at lower velocities.
Fellows I'm not talking about some dreamed up theory here. Bullets will break up. As I suggested earlier. Take a target and set it up behind brush then shoot at it. Some will go through then some will hit the paper with a shotgun like splatter. Match and varmint bullets will of course come apart fairly easy. Sierra Blitz-Kings will blow up on a blade of grass at a quarter mile. They are supposed to do that. As far as shooting steel plate. Well coming out the back side of that plate is a mist of lead dust isn't it.
Your in-laws 30-30 suggestion reflects that rounds well deserved reputation as a brush gun. Lower velocity is what helps it out. Which is why I mentioned 180 grain bullets for your 308.
Federal makes some good ammo. The box you have says power shock right on the cover. That's a deer and small game bullet. It would be nice if the add men would let the boys print that on the box wouldn't it. Remington used to sell green and white boxed bullets labeled High Shock. They meant it.
Federal sells 308's loaded with 180 grain Nosler partition bullets and there Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Moose class bullets for sure. They are labeled Vital-Shoke. And yes the spelling must have something to do with others copy-write? Federal also sells Sierra Game-Kings and Nosler ballistic tip bullets under that same label. Neither of which are tough bullets. But you'd never know that from there advertisements. So it's a typical mess. NRA magazine writer Fin Agard (sp) spent a decade or so trashing the performance of Sierra Game Kings. They've not changed a bit since then. Issue is core separation. There is nothing to hold the core to the jacket. Probably not much difference with Nosler BT bullets. In Noslers own advertising they state “immediate energy transfer”. Next to a photo of a bullet with only a short stub left intact under a mushroom. Half the bullet has cracked off. In large animals most of your energy will get dumped in the hide fat and ribs before it gets in the chest.
Here is a link to Federal ammo. http://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle.aspx
Moose are notorious for taking a hit then not even showing signs of it. They are known to not even stop eating right up to when they fall over dead. Rounds like 300 win mag are also notorious for failing on these big animals when loaded with light high velocity bullets. Take the same 150 grain bullet your 308 is shooting and hand load it on a 300 mag at 3,300 fps and it will come apart on short range shots. 270 Win gets a bad reputation of Elk and up sized game since many shoot a 130 gain bullet at 3,100 fps and they will frag on close shots under a couple hundred yards. I have a 270 and shoot Honady 150 SP and Nosler 160 partitions. The H-150's hit like a hammer. With a SD of .279 they compare to a 30 caliber 180 grain with SD of .271. Still I'd Chose a 30 caliber and up for really big stuff like moose. But with a 30 caliber 150 grain your SD (sectional density) is less than the 130 grain .277” bullet. Plus the heavier bullets are aimed at heavier game so most manufactures build them stronger. Lead core alloys will be hardened a bit with tin and or antimony to slow expansion and jackets may be thicker. Speer explains on there web site there boat tail bullets are designed for reliable expansion on long range shots. They mean out past 400 yards. While there flat base bullets are heavier constructed for deep penetration. BTW a Speer 180 grain Grand Slam would be one of the best bullets you could use on moose. With a 30-06 you can send 200 grain bullets but you almost need to hand load them for a modern rifle as most off the shelf ammo is loaded to 1906 Springfield pressure levels. I just checked that Federal web page and they list the same 180 grain bullet in a 308 at 2,620 fps then 30-06 at 2,700 fps. You can hand load a 30-06 180 grain to 2,840 fps. With an Ackley Imp. 30-06 you can run 180's at 3,000 fps. Or 220 grain round nosed bullets at 2,600 fps. Who needs a 300 win mag? You can see that with factory ammo everything you've heard of a 30-06 doing you can do with a 308 win. 80 fps spread on a 180 grain bullet is nothing. A 308 runs out of powder capacity with 200 gain bullets which is why you don't see them loaded much. That's where a 30-06 comes into its own. After all the 1903 was designed to shoot 220 grain lead bullets. You can hand load a 200 grain Speer grand Slam onto a 24” barrel 30-06 modern rifle at 2,650 fps with an out of the book load. Or the 220 grain Hornady RN at 2,583 fps. Can't do that with a 308! You can run a 200 grain bullet at 2,450 fps from a 308 win but as far as I know you'd need to hand load it plus have a 24 inch barrel. But 180's are about as heavy as a 308 likes. US Army 7.62 ball ammo for the MG's is around 177 grains and Sierra makes the 175gr MK to shoot next to them.
You probably hit that moose with bullet pieces. Or even a whole bullet sideways. I've never seen it but have heard moose just don't get to upset about being hit. You won't have a blood trail generally unless you make an exit wound. You said you held center of mass. Well if he's of been in the open that's not a good strategy. Hit them to far back and they'll take a couple days to die.
I've mad a mess of shots myself. Back when I was a teenager here In Illinois. We can't sue modern rifles in Illinois so I had a 45 caliber black powder muzzle loader. I though 110 grains of BP under a .440” pure lead round ball at 2,000 fps would be dandy. After about the third deer that just ran off I finally figured out they were blowing up on the hide. That's been forty years ago and I still feel bad.
As far as optic go. Lat year I bought a weaver 1 x 3X scope. Just love it set on 1X. You can snap the gun to your shoulder and leave both eyes open. Track a rabbit on the run if you want. In the dark if you can see it with your naked eye you can see it through the scope. As far as I can tell. I use in on a 223 for yotes over a call at night.
Well I see I've lived up to my handle with this post. Could have said it in four lines if I was good.
Heavy tough bullets that will go all the way through to leave a blood trail and have an aim point before taking a shot.
45/70??? i always wanted to get one and now i have an excuse. i have been eyeballing the remington 750 semi -auto also, just thinking i might have had a better chance with a quicker follow up shot. in the past i have always used 308 and never let me down. just gotta take this one on the chin and wait till next fall.
That $ucks.
A 30-06 wont make defelction better, it will make it worse.
It is possible you could have hit a big enough piece of bush to damage or stop the bullet,
but I would guess it was deflected.
I have had defections you would not believe. Combine that with pulling your shot a bit
and you are screwed
For a different short action cartridge I would go for a 338 RCM loaded with a roundnose bullet for brush.
338 fed too.
A round nose will plow through brush better, but really you want a slow moving heavy bullet.
At least they will get through the twigs and whatnot without being deflected too much.
I never have tried one in 308 and not sure if it would stabilize but Hawk makes a 250 gr 308 roundnose.
I load a 308 220 gr roundnose in 308.
Load it over RL17 and get about 2425 fps or so out of a 19" barrel.
That is my 308 Hog brush round.
I prefer the 208 gr amax, but its a spitzer so the 220 gr roundnose is just
for the woods.
I read a while back, a test on bullets, of all sorts, different speeds, different size twigs, small limbs etc.
Seems like they tested all the calibers, and in the end they said all bullets deflect even off an tiny twig.
The worst were the higher velocity spitzers, but even the heavy round nose big bullets would deflect more than you would think.
The lowest deflection came from a 50 caliber ball.
A downloaded 458 winmag would do it or in a short action a 458x2 american (cut down 458 WM) loaded with some of these.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=444103
or these for a heavier bullet
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=379640
Quite a bit of the 45-70 factory loaded soft points will in fact frag to shreds going through brush. I know it's hard to imagine. Especially since it's just loaded to around 1300 fps. I've some 415 grain cast lead alloyed bullets on the way to Alaska right now to a customer who had that issue with over the counter ammo. All the Army had to do in the 19th century was to use a little tin in the alloy and they could shoot through multiple rail road ties with four foot air gaps between them using 45-70's. Even at over a mile from Gattlin guns. With modern manufacturing being in the state it's in I guess that's to high a goal. There is just a lot of junk ammo on the market. Wal-Mart is a good place to find junk. All I can figure is they added some kind of trash metal into the alloy that makes it fall apart. Even pure soft lead in a jacket should hold up with a 405 grain 45 slug at 1300 fps. With lead alloy at $1.35 a pound and an almost one ounce bullet there's lots of room to save money.Quote:
Originally Posted by borg
http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by GabbyM
I have an older Gun book where they tested a lot of different bullets for brush busting and in the end they found that NONE made it to the target in one piece, a few peppered the target with some tiny holes that would have hit a deer in the legs and/or lower belly.
None were what they would have called a killing shot.
Michael Grace
A Barnes solid would not break up since they are solid copper.
Or one of the Punch bullets above, but those things cost like $2.50 each in 450 400 gr.
Good thing they don't deform much so you can clean them up and load them again.
How about a 75 caliber double barrel muzzle loader to shoot round balls.
You could probably find somebody to build one.
A 75 caliber ball weighs about 600 grains.
Yeah, but I lived in Belgrade, Montana. The guy who machines them is practically my neighbor, so I was just supporting local business. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tammons
Whether the bullet is solid or not there's still going to be some deflection. No bullet is deflection proof. I'd say the real lesson to be learned here is don't take a shot through brush period. Wait until you have a clear shot even if it is a hole through some brush. Don't assume that since you have a bigger, heavier bullet that it will make it through and still hit the intended target. It was an unethical shot all together in my opinion.
me and my buddy back tracked and tried going in the direction it ran off too but no luck. while catching our breath we heard it calling to the cows that were with him when we first saw him. i won't be trying that kind of shot again, when we saw him and the size it got the "blood pumping".
gonna use the remaining 150's for paper shooting and use bigger ones next time. after reading about the 45-70 rounds i will be looking for one of those this winter. thanks for the advice
if you want something a bit bigger for the savage action, .35 whelen, .338-06, .416 tayler.
.45-70 has the ballistic lob of a .22rf
Thats a good neighbor.Quote:
Originally Posted by borg
if you didn't have a clear shot, you should not have pulled the trigger.
I watch an occasional video of an African buff hunt where the PH prompts the hunter to shoot an animal laying down through so much brush you can hardly see the critter.
A 60" moose is a large animal, and in my experience (27 years hunting in Alaska) they often do not respond much when first hit. Did the OP follow the animal for several hours to determine if he had been hit or not? Did he look for blood (not likely with that inadequate bullet)? I hope by "center of mass" the OP didn't mean he aimed in the lateral 'center' of the animal. ::) ::)
While I certainly could be wrong, it sounds like the OP has little hunting experience. I suspect he did in fact hit the moose but expected the animal to fall over DRT so he blamed the bullet (wouldn't be the first time someone did). I guess you can't really blame him - there is so much BS in on-line forums with the words 'DRT after the shot' that the inexperienced hunter might think they are shooting a 20mm Oerlikon.
Bottom line: another beautiful animal wasted through inexperience.
.
I love Savages, but my brush gun is a short, fast-handling Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. The trigger was sweet straight from the factory. I can actually hit a paper plate consistently at 100 yards using the iron sights while shooting unsupported offhand, which is better than I can do with my scoped rifles. Anything inside 100 yards is dead, and if I'm hunting in less dense areas I can switch to LeveRevolution rounds and extend the MPBR considerably. But that's only if I don't have access to my other rifles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Avenger
Besides, moose generally aren't as hard to sneak up on as other ungulates.
You dont need a different bullet or a different caliber for that shot. What you needed was a better/clearer shot to take.
That's right pdog. With today's bullets, elk and moose can be cleanly killed with a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet.
But the OP was apparently using yesterday's bullet (cheap Federal). And remember the OP lacks experience - he took a 'center of mass' shot at 25 feet. Clean kill? Right.Quote:
With today's bullets, elk and moose can be cleanly killed with a 150 grain 30 caliber bullet.
This was not a cow elk the guy plinked. IME on large moose like this, expecting to get a low sectional density cup-and-core bullet to give complete penetration on a broadside shot through the gut at close range is wishful thinking. I watched a hunting partner use his 150/.308 combo (with Partitions) at 30 yards on a 45" bull and it did not give complete penetration through the chest. Had he used a 180-grain Partition (yesterday's bullet again) the OP may have gotten a pass through and perhaps a decent blood trail to follow.
I still think the moose's carcass is lying in a brush pile a hundred yards from where he was hit.
.
You make a good point. I don't disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Pope
I have to ask the question-WTF were you thinking hunting a 1000+ lbs. game animal with a 150gr. 308? In any suitable caliber rifle in the .30 range 180 gr. Premiums of some brand would be a minimum, I'd think. Don't take me wrong, I hunt in Al and almost everything here is over powered above .25-06, but just think about all that bulk on a Moose! Add in the brush interference= you got what you paid for. A side story on light bullets- I loaded my 220 Swith Savage 26" with some Hornady 50gr bullets-note in the box said Do not exceed 3500 fps. My load was pushing 39K-40K fps. I came around a corner on a country road, saw a big Bobcat on the road shoulder about 100 yds away. Got a shot off, cat jumped at least 15' in the air cart-wheeling end over end. I ran to the spotlooking for blood. All I found was Bobcat crap everywhere! It was squatting to crap when I shot! I droven to my gravel pit range a mile away and shot 5 of those new loads. Only 3 reached the target,the other 2 blew up and peppered the paper with particles. Poor Kitty was fixing to take a dump when he got what equated to being TAzered! It was funny as hell!
Exactly.
Re-barrel that rifle to a 338 fed or better yet a 338 RCM.
Load it up with some 210 gr TTSX with the fed or 225 gr TTSX bullets for the RCM
or 250 gr roundnose bullets for the brush with either. All over RL17 and you should get some
decent velocity.
You need more gun, 338-06 minimum; I'd go with a 338WM. You can always go with a 458 WM and with a reduced load (45-70 ballistics) or a full house load; new barrel $200 w/ nut wrench and GO/NoGO guages, well and a LA.....
I'd say he needs at least 3 more guns. ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ons/fing20.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by pudge
I can't believe what I am reading. You all need to read more on sectional density and terminal performance associated with it. Hunting animals is not the same as punching paper at the range.
Clearly a .308 150 grain bullet might have enough weight but lacks sectional density. I wouldn't consider a 150 grain .308 for deer let alone moose. I read every day about 308 shooters recovering their 150 grain bullet from deer so how and the heck is it going to penetrate a moose if it can't blast through a whitetail? The 6.5x55 swede has been effectively killing moose in northern europe for a century so whats the difference? Sectional Density!
A 140 grain 6.5 bullet performs better than a 150 from a 308 any day because of its Sectional density. The bottom line is this: the longer a bullet is the better it holds together, resists deflection, penetrates and offers more expansion capability. When your talking critters as large as moose then you need a bullet capable of penetrating more than the front shoulder and bullet weight has nothing to do with it.
308 shooters get caught up in the velocity issue but forget entirely about terminal performance and the lighter .308 bullets are terrible performers on game IMO.
In Canada back in the 40s and 50s, the venerable 30-30 with 190 grain soft nose was used effectively on moose at short range of 100 yards and less. Good SD with that 190 grain round soft nose.
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by GaCop
Moose are seldom shot at long range because of the thick country they inhabit but the right bullet for your caliber is critical to success.
Hi folks! I'm a new member but have been following this forum for years, and have a lot of respect for the opinions of most of the members here. I have been a hunter and shooter for about 30 yrs, and have been handloading for 3 yrs. While I'm certainly no expert on this subject, I do have my own personal experiences and opinions, and felt compelled to share them.... so here's my 2 cents.
Sectional density is indeed critically important in relation to penetration on game, especially game of this size. However, the real issue here is deflection due contact with brush, not necessarily poor penetration on game (although that would have probably been a problem had the 150 grain "deer bullet" found its way cleanly to the target). In my opinion, there is probably no gun/caliber/bullet made, that can be fired from the shoulder, that will RELIABLY "punch through" brush without DEFLECTION. Notice that I did not say will not penetrate reliably through brush, but rather that will not do so without a significant amount of deflection (and/or damage to the bullet).
As to the bigger caliber/heavier/slower is better argument, I personally witnessed a .44 caliber 240 grain Hornady XTP fired from my brother's muzzleloader, which I know to have been travelling at about 1500 fps as we had fired this load though my chronograph previously, be deflected by a single branch which was smaller than the diameter of the bullet, causing a clean miss on the deer standing about 15 yards behind it. He says he never even saw the sapling between him and the deer (it was the only one), and we found the twig almost cleanly severed, just hanging by a thread. He had been hunting from a treestand, so he was firing downward toward the deer. I was hunting a few hundred yards down over the same field that morning, and distinctly remember hearing the sound of that heavy, slow, "brush bustin" bullet whizzing off across the open field after hitting that 3/8 inch green twig, and also hearing it crashing into the trees on the far side of the field some 300 yards away a second or so after the shot. This is only one example, but this indicates some serious deflection, probably on the order of 30-45 degrees change of course, all from a single small green branch that was hardly even noticeable. That single experience made me a firm disbeliever in the "brush gun" myth.
By the way, the severed branch was directly in line with the deer and the firing point, and my brother has killed many more deer than I could ever hope to in one lifetime, so I seriously don't think this was a case of nerves, pulling the shot, etc. This was simply this deer's lucky day. We searched, often on hands and knees, for a couple of hours where the deer had been standing, and along the path where he moseyed off after the ill fated shot, and found absolutely no signs of a hit on the animal. This, coupled with the nearly severed branch, and especially the fact that I heard the bullet impact high in the trees some 300 yds away, led us to conclude that, hard as it may be for some people to accept, a single small obstruction CAN have a tremendously detrimental effect on your carefully placed shot. Now, as in the OP's case, factor in a small army of bullet deflecting branches, and it's not difficult at all for me to conclude that either the bullet never hit the moose at all (best case), or.. if it did, the light bullet fragmented and peppered the unfortunate moose, which probably later died as a result, which is a waste (worst case). As in my brother's case, lesson learned...
Bottom line for me is: no matter the caliber, bullet choice, velocity etc., DON'T SHOOT THROUGH BRUSH.. AT ALL! As I stated before, you can not expect RELIABLE results, and if you don't expect with reasonable certainty to kill the animal in the crosshairs, don't pull the trigger.
Just my 2 cents....
Good point "barrel-nut". You jogged my memory about a test I witnessed long ago while on active duty. A 50 caliber BMG with a standard 647 grain load will not track straight through heavy cover. I never would have believed this had I not seen the military test done using 1/2 wood dowels, 24 inches in height, staggered approximately 1.5 inch apart, 24" in depth and five feet wide with the target placed 10 feet or so behind the dowels. Of five rounds fired, only two hit the edge of the target frame. The point they made was..................as good as the "Ma Duce" is, it couldn't perform miracles in heavy cover.
I thought in reading the post that both the sectional density and deflection issue had already been pointed out but you all make good points. I hope the OP doesn't try to make a shot like that again and also switches to a heavier bullet if he continues using a 30 caliber which will give him a better SD.
[quote=snipecatcher ]
A 150 gr. 308 bullet will blow through 1/4" steel, regardless of the bullet construction. My 6.5x55 shooting a 140 grain Sierra GK (soft nosed bullet) will blow through 1/4" steel from 450 yards. This is the farthest I've tested it. I doubt your bullet blew up, and I can also tell you that a 30/30 would not have been any better. You were either trying to shoot through a tree trunk, or flat out missed. Here's an interesting test on bullet deflection:
The quote is above, I don't know how to get my comments separate.
I was at the range with my son. He was shooting the .357 at a spinner rated for .44 magnum which is made from 5/8" steel. The .357 bullets just go splat. I was shooting my .308 and I thought I would hit is just once and see it spin. It didn't spin, it just put this hole in it! It was just some off the shelf soft nose hunting bullet.
I sent this to our staff scientist who does metal failure analysis. He said the interesting surface on the inside of the hole shows melting and tearing of the metal. The energy of the bullet melted through the metal. The hole is about twice as big as .30 cal, so the bullet did expand.
The point is, punching through metal probably doesn't have much to do with "blowing apart", expanding, or the ability to get through brush. There probably wasn't much left of this bullet after it went through this metal. I couldn't find any pieces of bullet or steel on the other side. The bullet and the steel melt.
I would how the 165 grain Barnes Banded Bullet would work in brush? Midway had them on sale and I bought some. They seem to be solid brass, dangerous game type.
[img width=559 height=450]http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa323/Warthogx0/308-steel.jpg[/img]